DIYAPASON-L Digest #199 - Tuesday, December 5, 2000
 
need email address
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
RE: [Residence Organs]  need email address
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  need email address
  by "Duane Austin" <duanet@execpc.com>
RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/console wi	ring
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/consolewi	ring
  by "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/consolewiring
  by "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com>
Caution Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about wind chest/console  w
  by "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com>
Caution Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: questions about	windchest/console  wi
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
 

(back) Subject: need email address From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:18:50 -0500   Hi members,   Does anyone have the email address for John Calvo? He was a contributor = for a while. I need to get in touch with him.   Thanks!   John V      
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] need email address From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:55:50 -0600   Jon Calvo [jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us]           > -----Original Message----- > From: John Vanderlee [SMTP:jovanderlee@vassar.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:19 AM > To: Residence Organ List > Subject: [Residence Organs] need email address > > Hi members, > > Does anyone have the email address for John Calvo? He was a contributor > for > a while. I need to get in touch with him. > > Thanks! > > John V > > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] need email address From: "Duane Austin" <duanet@execpc.com> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:26:04 -0500   John John Calvo's E Mail address is : jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us   John Vanderlee wrote:   > Hi members, > > Does anyone have the email address for John Calvo? He was a contributor = for > a while. I need to get in touch with him. > > Thanks! > > John V > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:38:57 -0600     > Hi members, My name is Steve Pitts.I am an electrical engineer in Huntsville, AL..I have been a pipe organ enthusiast since the age of 12.At the age of 18, I worked for a short while for Norville Hall and Associates, Pipe = Organ Builders in Mentone,Alabama.He sold to me a 2M/4R organ for $500 which I = set up in my home.Due to circumstances beyond my control, I lost the instrument.Since that time I have had a goal of having a pipe organ in my home once again.Now, at age 43 , having better resources available , I am watching and waiting for the right pipe organ to come up for sale.In the meanwhile , I am trying to learn as much as possible about pipe organ design: wind supply,voicing and tuning, and especially the electrical design of the console and wind chest and stop mechanisms.I have searched the WEB and come up with only sketchy relevant information.Does anyone have some schematics or general circuit drawings depicting the wiring for the wind chests and consoles? I am also interested in any information about pipe = wind pressure ratings and how they relate to blower capacity.I would also = welcome any general advice or information about the subject       > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:16:18 -0700   Steve,   To an electrical engineer wiring an organ would be very basic. The magnets run on about 12 vdc. There are contacts in the keys which usually go to gang switches which are operated by the stops. The output from these gang switches is sent to the magnets in the chests. There is a rectifier which provides the 12v. It does not even matter which way you sent the current through the organ. With my old Klann console I reversed it one time to try something out. It all worked fine.   That is the basic case of course and there are fuses and the like that ought to be in there. I just replaced my console and computerized the = whole organ. But the basics are still the same. There are drivers to turn on the 12v current to the magnets instead of contacts.   Kelvin   >> Hi members, > My name is Steve Pitts.I am an electrical engineer in Huntsville, >AL..I have been a pipe organ enthusiast since the age of 12.At the age of >18, I worked for a short while for Norville Hall and Associates, Pipe = Organ >Builders in Mentone,Alabama.He sold to me a 2M/4R organ for $500 which I = set >up in my home.Due to circumstances beyond my control, I lost the >instrument.Since that time I have had a goal of having a pipe organ in my >home once again.Now, at age 43 , having better resources available , I am >watching and waiting for the right pipe organ to come up for sale.In the >meanwhile , I am trying to learn as much as possible about pipe organ >design: > wind supply,voicing and tuning, and especially the electrical design >of the console and wind chest and stop mechanisms.I have searched the WEB >and come up with only sketchy relevant information.Does anyone have some >schematics or general circuit drawings depicting the wiring for the wind >chests and consoles? I am also interested in any information about pipe = wind >pressure ratings and how they relate to blower capacity.I would also = welcome >any general advice or information about the subject > > > >> DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >> Residence Pipe Organs. >> HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >> List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >> Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/console wi ring From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:45:06 -0600   Thanks for the info.I assume the discussion below applies to direct-electric and electro-pneumatic? Are both action types common in modern organs?   > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelvin Smith [SMTP:KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:16 PM > To: Residence Organ List > Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind > chest/console wiring > > Steve, > > To an electrical engineer wiring an organ would be very basic. The = magnets > run on about 12 vdc. There are contacts in the keys which usually go to > gang switches which are operated by the stops. The output from these = gang > switches is sent to the magnets in the chests. There is a rectifier = which > provides the 12v. It does not even matter which way you sent the current > through the organ. With my old Klann console I reversed it one time to = try > something out. It all worked fine. > > That is the basic case of course and there are fuses and the like that > ought to be in there. I just replaced my console and computerized the > whole > organ. But the basics are still the same. There are drivers to turn on = the > 12v current to the magnets instead of contacts. > >  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/consolewi ring From: "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:54:19 -0500       STEVE PITTS wrote: > > Thanks for the info.I assume the discussion below applies to > direct-electric and electro-pneumatic? Are both action types common in > modern organs?   The wiring is more or less the same. In a EP organ, the wiring goes = through a bunch of relays and ends up firing a magnet that directs air into a = valve that opens and lets air into the pipe. In a DE, the magnet works the = valve directly.   Pretty much the whole thing is not hard to trace through. It only looks daunting because there are 61+ copies of everything in parallel. = Actually, in the case of my highly unified 1930ish Moller, the problem is that there were no semiconductor diodes available back then (even the low voltage DC to work the logic was derived by a motor generator). As a result there = are a lot of extra switching necessary that would have been obviated by a = matrix made up of a handfull of small diodes.  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:07:52 -0700   Direct-electric and electro-pneumatic are very common. The only other common action is mechanical. (There are some variations) The difference between ep and direct electric is the higher current used in de, but the voltage is the same.   >Thanks for the info.I assume the discussion below applies to >direct-electric and electro-pneumatic? Are both action types common in >modern organs? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kelvin Smith [SMTP:KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:16 PM >> To: Residence Organ List >> Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind >> chest/console wiring >> >> Steve, >> >> To an electrical engineer wiring an organ would be very basic. The = magnets >> run on about 12 vdc. There are contacts in the keys which usually go to >> gang switches which are operated by the stops. The output from these = gang >> switches is sent to the magnets in the chests. There is a rectifier = which >> provides the 12v. It does not even matter which way you sent the = current >> through the organ. With my old Klann console I reversed it one time to = try >> something out. It all worked fine. >> >> That is the basic case of course and there are fuses and the like that >> ought to be in there. I just replaced my console and computerized the >> whole >> organ. But the basics are still the same. There are drivers to turn on = the >> 12v current to the magnets instead of contacts. >> >> > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/consolewiring From: "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:02:47 -0500       Kelvin Smith wrote: > > Direct-electric and electro-pneumatic are very common. The only other > common action is mechanical. (There are some variations) The difference > between ep and direct electric is the higher current used in de, but the > voltage is the same.   The wiring of mechanical actions is very simple indeed! Don't even need a meter to trace those.  
(back) Subject: Caution Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about wind chest/console wiring From: "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:49:43 -0500   To Kelvin, Steve (welcome) and list   Just a word of caution! Kelvin's comments touched a nerve with me. Most older systems encountered in the U.S. were very simple by design and polarity need not matter.... HOWEVER!   Any system (mid 60's or later) which incorporated diodes for spark suppression, "feeding through control", gating, etc. whether they be at magnets, stop knobs (or tabs) or elsewhere in the system, cannot have the polarity reversed at all.   There were also systems (not likely to be encountered in residence organs.. but possible) where polarities were mixed in an effort to balance current consumption. e.g. a seven stop bar and slider chest with 7 heavy slider motors.... 4 might have one polarity... 3 would have the opposite... all set to work in balance based upon general usage of stops.   There were also instances of "key switching" (without a common wiper) where a key would activate individual wipers (spades) for each contact. In turn the circuitry would be customized and even possibly have both negative and positive at the key for different purposes. Switching would then be via brush return relays. This system was very much used by many European builders from early in the last century until the general adoption of the diode. It is possible to still find this.... I still know of a few instances.... in fact a competitor has recently got himself into a really bad situation with a 1963 organ of ours (HN&B). .... 3 manual & and pedal... all straight.... he attempted to extend and unify the Pedal reed to provide a Great Trumpet.... you can now play the Pedal reed (16' if the fuse holds out) or the Trumpet (8') from G# below middle C... but not both.... add the Great to Pedal ... entire organ cuts out... but he must know what he is doing ... he just took a $400.000.00 rebuild from me ... for now!.   The same concerns exist if there are any bridge rectifiers in the system.... anywhere!   As I hope I have said, please use extreme caution before ever switching polarity.   Hugh     >Steve, > >To an electrical engineer wiring an organ would be very basic. The = magnets >run on about 12 vdc. There are contacts in the keys which usually go to >gang switches which are operated by the stops. The output from these gang >switches is sent to the magnets in the chests. There is a rectifier which >provides the 12v. It does not even matter which way you sent the current >through the organ. With my old Klann console I reversed it one time to = try >something out. It all worked fine. > >That is the basic case of course and there are fuses and the like that >ought to be in there. I just replaced my console and computerized the = whole >organ. But the basics are still the same. There are drivers to turn on = the >12v current to the magnets instead of contacts. > >Kelvin > >>> Hi members, >> My name is Steve Pitts.I am an electrical engineer in Huntsville, >>AL..I have been a pipe organ enthusiast since the age of 12.At the age = of >>18, I worked for a short while for Norville Hall and Associates, Pipe = Organ >>Builders in Mentone,Alabama.He sold to me a 2M/4R organ for $500 which I = set >>up in my home.Due to circumstances beyond my control, I lost the >>instrument.Since that time I have had a goal of having a pipe organ in = my >>home once again.Now, at age 43 , having better resources available , I = am >>watching and waiting for the right pipe organ to come up for sale.In the >>meanwhile , I am trying to learn as much as possible about pipe organ >>design: >> wind supply,voicing and tuning, and especially the electrical design >>of the console and wind chest and stop mechanisms.I have searched the = WEB >>and come up with only sketchy relevant information.Does anyone have some >>schematics or general circuit drawings depicting the wiring for the wind >>chests and consoles? I am also interested in any information about pipe = wind >>pressure ratings and how they relate to blower capacity.I would also = welcome > >any general advice or information about the subject >> >> >> >>> DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >>> Residence Pipe Organs. >>> HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >>> List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >>> Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >> >>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >>Residence Pipe Organs. >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >>List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >>Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > > > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Caution Re: [Residence Organs] RE: questions about windchest/console wiring From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:32:01 -0600   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   Hey Guys=20 Question for anyone I have a Wicks remote Combination action on my organ = and the combination action will not change and when it dose it is sluggish = 2nd problem it won't hold a setting who would be willing to advise me as = to the remedy this problem , has anyone herd of this happening before=20 thanks john       >>> knapton@superaje.com 12/05/00 01:49PM >>> To Kelvin, Steve (welcome) and list   Just a word of caution! Kelvin's comments touched a nerve with me.=20 Most older systems encountered in the U.S. were very simple by design=20 and polarity need not matter.... HOWEVER!   Any system (mid 60's or later) which incorporated diodes for spark=20 suppression, "feeding through control", gating, etc. whether they be=20 at magnets, stop knobs (or tabs) or elsewhere in the system, cannot=20 have the polarity reversed at all.   There were also systems (not likely to be encountered in residence=20 organs.. but possible) where polarities were mixed in an effort to=20 balance current consumption. e.g. a seven stop bar and slider chest=20 with 7 heavy slider motors.... 4 might have one polarity... 3 would=20 have the opposite... all set to work in balance based upon general=20 usage of stops.   There were also instances of "key switching" (without a common wiper)=20 where a key would activate individual wipers (spades) for each=20 contact. In turn the circuitry would be customized and even possibly=20 have both negative and positive at the key for different purposes.=20 Switching would then be via brush return relays. This system was very=20 much used by many European builders from early in the last century=20 until the general adoption of the diode. It is possible to still find=20 this.... I still know of a few instances.... in fact a competitor has=20 recently got himself into a really bad situation with a 1963 organ of=20 ours (HN&B). .... 3 manual & and pedal... all straight.... he=20 attempted to extend and unify the Pedal reed to provide a Great=20 Trumpet.... you can now play the Pedal reed (16' if the fuse holds=20 out) or the Trumpet (8') from G# below middle C... but not both....=20 add the Great to Pedal ... entire organ cuts out... but he must know=20 what he is doing ... he just took a $400.000.00 rebuild from me ...=20 for now!.   The same concerns exist if there are any bridge rectifiers in the=20 system.... anywhere!   As I hope I have said, please use extreme caution before ever=20 switching polarity.   Hugh     >Steve, > >To an electrical engineer wiring an organ would be very basic. The = magnets >run on about 12 vdc. There are contacts in the keys which usually go to >gang switches which are operated by the stops. The output from these gang >switches is sent to the magnets in the chests. There is a rectifier which >provides the 12v. It does not even matter which way you sent the current >through the organ. With my old Klann console I reversed it one time to = try >something out. It all worked fine. > >That is the basic case of course and there are fuses and the like that >ought to be in there. I just replaced my console and computerized the = whole >organ. But the basics are still the same. There are drivers to turn on = the >12v current to the magnets instead of contacts. > >Kelvin > >>> Hi members, >> My name is Steve Pitts.I am an electrical engineer in Huntsville, >>AL..I have been a pipe organ enthusiast since the age of 12.At the age = of >>18, I worked for a short while for Norville Hall and Associates, Pipe = Organ >>Builders in Mentone,Alabama.He sold to me a 2M/4R organ for $500 which I = set >>up in my home.Due to circumstances beyond my control, I lost the >>instrument.Since that time I have had a goal of having a pipe organ in = my >>home once again.Now, at age 43 , having better resources available , I = am >>watching and waiting for the right pipe organ to come up for sale.In the >>meanwhile , I am trying to learn as much as possible about pipe organ >>design: >> wind supply,voicing and tuning, and especially the electrical = design >>of the console and wind chest and stop mechanisms.I have searched the = WEB >>and come up with only sketchy relevant information.Does anyone have some >>schematics or general circuit drawings depicting the wiring for the wind >>chests and consoles? I am also interested in any information about pipe = wind >>pressure ratings and how they relate to blower capacity.I would also = welcome > >any general advice or information about the subject >> >> >> >>> DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >>> Residence Pipe Organs. >>> HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=20 >>> List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=20 >>> Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=20 >> >>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >>Residence Pipe Organs. >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=20 >>List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=20 >>Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=20 > > > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=20 >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=20 >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=20     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=20 Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=20