DIYAPASON-L Digest #206 - Saturday, December 16, 2000
 
Re: unit organs
  by <Ed_Stauff@avid.com>
Organ Clearing House
  by "John P. Smith" <jnksd82@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: unit organs
  by "steve c bournias" <chrisbournias@hotmail.com>
Mutation Tuning
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mutation Tuning
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mutation Tuning
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mutation Tuning
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: unit organs From: <Ed_Stauff@avid.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:08:01 -0500       "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> wrote: >could someone explain to me exactly what is meant by the term "Unit = Organ" >or what is meant when saying that an organ is unified? What are the >consequences of modifying or expanding an organ that is unified?   Others have already defined unification, but I haven't seen anyone discuss the pros and cons. The major pro, of course, is that you use fewer pipes, and thus fewer and/or smaller chests and less chamber space. As for the cons...   Unification has a tendency to seriously compromise or even ruin the tonal integrity of an organ. (This applies mainly to "classical" organ; theatre organs have pretty much always been heavily unified and are, musically speaking, very different beasts.) There are two main reasons for this: note drop-out and scaling.   If you have two stops unified from the same rank, one at 8' and one at 4', and draw them together, everything will be fine if you're playing one note at a time. However, as soon as you start playing chords or counterpoint with octaves, you'll notice that some notes start sounding "thin" because there aren't enough pipes to back them up. For example, if you play tenor C and middle C together, you'll only hear 3 pipes speaking: the 4', 2', and 1' pipe. The 2' pipe is effectively being played "twice" by both C keys, but there is only one pipe to share. On a "straight" (non-unified) organ, 4 pipes will speak: a 4' pipe and a 2' pipe from the 8' rank, and a 2' pipe and a 1' pipe from the 4' rank. This is the "note drop-out" problem. It *is* subtle, but I find it very noticeable. Unification is more common in the pedal, where you don't notice this problem because you almost never play more than one note at a time.   In a straight organ, the scales of different stops in the same chorus get smaller as the pitch gets higher. Thus, the 4' Octave should have a smaller scale than the 8' Principal, and the 2' Superoctave should have a smaller scale than the 4' Octave. If they all had the same scale, the chorus would sound top-heavy. In an attempt to get around this problem, a unified rank generally uses a scale that gets smaller as it ascends. This is, of course, a compromise, as a given pipe cannot simultaneously be of the proper scale for stops at two different pitches.   The worst use of unification is to use one rank for both octave and mutation ranks; for example, unifying one rank to 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2', 1 3/5', etc. Such unified mutuations will *ALWAYS* be out of tune; done with Gedeckts (or Tibias), the overall effect is that of an old Hammond organ. Ranks should never, ever be unified to other than octave pitches. (Thus, it's okay to unify one rank to 5 1/3', 2 2/3', and 1 1/3'.) It's worth mentioning the most common use of this type of unification: taking a 10 2/3' stop from a 16' rank, so as to produce a resultant 32'. This actually works reasonably well, because the human ear is less able to make fine pitch distinctions at lower frequencies.   "Borrowing" refers to using the same rank on different manuals, but always at the same pitch. This is generally considered less evil than unification (which implies using one rank at more than one pitch), and is particularly useful for increasing the versatility of unusual or expensive ranks. It's common to borrow all manual 16' stops onto the pedal, or to make a reed (especially a Trompette en Chamade) available on more than one manual.   Hope this helps.   -- Ed   #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D# | Ed Stauff, principal software eng. | I don't speak | "Specialization | | Avid Technology, Tewksbury MA, USA | for Avid, nor | is for insects." | | "ed_stauff#@#avid.com" (remove #'s) | vice versa. | -- Lazarus Long | #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#      
(back) Subject: Organ Clearing House From: "John P. Smith" <jnksd82@home.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:27:54 -0600   I was fortunate enough to have several conversations with Alan Laufman = about acquiring a small organ for my residence. I didn't end up going that = route, but he was very helpful and certainly willing to place instruments in = homes. He had no problem with reasonable alterations to the case configurations = or specifications of these instruments in order to fit the needs of a new location. He was pragmatic enough to realize that if such changes were forbidden in the name of "historic preservation" many worthy instruments would never find new homes and would end up in the junk heap. What he DIDN'T want to facilitate was the hacking up and parting out of intact instruments to add a few ranks to an existing installation. I would = assume that the new management of the Organ Clearing House would continue with a similar philosophy.     John P. Smith Champaign, IL    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: unit organs From: "steve c bournias" <chrisbournias@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:40:29 -0500   <html><DIV> <P><BR><BR></P>I disagree on the "evils" of unitizing. It can be = successful in the specific installations where it is used and especially = where there is a limited number of tonal resources , and can make an = organ more "user friendly". In larger installations the creative use of = unitization can render certain stops more utilitarian. For example, an 8' = principal can be augmented tonally by the availability of the = corresponding 4' octave if such 4' is also made avaiable at 8'. Played = together these two tonal elements will work well to create a broader tonal = pallet than either one played alone. Similarly, an 8' flute stop will be = enhanced if its corresponding 4' stop is also made playable at 8', = creating a far more expansive tonal spread than either stop played alone = at 8' pitch. The same thing is accomplished if you couple an 8' principal = from the swell to the great 8' principal or an 8'swell flute to the 8' = great flute. The variation in scaling between 8' and 4' stops&nbsp; may = be noti <P> <P></P>&gt;From: Ed_Stauff@avid.com <BR>&gt;Reply-To: "Residence Organ = List" <DIYAPASON-L@PIPECHAT.ORG><BR>&gt;To: "Residence Organ List" = <DIYAPASON-L@PIPECHAT.ORG><BR>&gt;Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: unit = organs <BR>&gt;Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:08:01 -0500 <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; = <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;"STEVE PITTS" <STEVE.PITTS@ADTRAN.COM>wrote: <BR>&gt; = &gt;could someone explain to me exactly what is meant by the term "Unit = Organ" <BR>&gt; &gt;or what is meant when saying that an organ is unified? = What are the <BR>&gt; &gt;consequences of modifying or expanding an organ = that is unified? <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Others have already defined unification, = but I haven't seen anyone <BR>&gt;discuss the pros and cons. The major = pro, of course, is that you <BR>&gt;use fewer pipes, and thus fewer and/or = smaller chests and less <BR>&gt;chamber space. As for the cons... <BR>&gt; = <BR>&gt;Unification has a tendency to seriously compromise or even ruin = the <BR>&gt;tonal integrity of an organ. (This applies mainl  
(back) Subject: Mutation Tuning From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:44:14 EST   Ed Stauff brought up a subject I've never fully understood...that of = mutation tuning. I know that when tuning "octave" ranks you tune the 4th & = 5th accurately first, and then you lower the 5th and raise the 4th. This = makes the octaves come out right. If you have an electronic tuner you can = skip all this and just tune to the tuner. However, how do you tune = mutations accurately? The same way? Can you use an electronic tuner? If = the answer to these questions is "yes" why aren't unified mutations in = tune?   Thanks for your input.   Tom  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:13:29 -0700   Mutation ranks are not tuned to the tuner. They have to be tuned without beats to the unison ranks. If you tune them the other way they don't mix well in combination, especially the tierces.   Kelvin   >Ed Stauff brought up a subject I've never fully understood...that of >mutation tuning. I know that when tuning "octave" ranks you tune the 4th = & >5th accurately first, and then you lower the 5th and raise the 4th. This >makes the octaves come out right. Ifou have an electronic tuner you can >skip all this and just tune to the tuner. However, how do you tune >mutations accurately? The same way? Can you use an electronic tuner? If >the answer to these questions is "yes" why aren't unified mutations in >tune? > >Thanks for your input. > >Tom > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:34:27 EST   Kevin:   If you tune the unison ranks to the tuner, and then turn around and tune = the mutations to the unisons so they won't beat, isn't this essentially = the same as tuning the mutations to the tuner?   Tom  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:59:57 -0600   Tom wrote: >Ed Stauff brought up a subject I've never fully understood...that of >mutation tuning. I know that when tuning "octave" ranks you tune the 4th = & >5th accurately first, and then you lower the 5th and raise the 4th. This >makes the octaves come out right. If you have an electronic tuner you can =   >skip all this and just tune to the tuner. However, how do you tune >mutations accurately? The same way? Can you use an electronic tuner? If = the >answer to these questions is "yes" why aren't unified mutations in tune? > > Mutations are not tuned to the same pitch as the corresponding note on the =   scale in equal temperament, therefore they are out of tune on a unified rank. For example a separate 2-2/3 rank would be tuned an octave and a perfect fifth above the corresponding note on an 8 foot rank. Since the fifths are narrowed on an equal temperament 8 foot rank this would not be the same pitch. There are no perfect fifths in equal temperament. The thirds are even worse so a perfectly tuned 1-3/5' rank (two octaves and a perfect third) would even be farther off in pitch from the corresponding note on the 8 foot rank. When you unify an 8 foot rank to play at 2-2/3 = and 1-3/5 these notes are just borrowed from farther up the scale in equal temperament, and therefore, are not an octave and a perfect fifth, nor two =   octaves and a perfect third.   I thought that by tuning my organ in a well temperament it would solve = this problem. NOT THE CASE. The fifths are perfect on about 5 or six of the notes and all the others are worse and worse as you get farther and = farther from C. The thirds are about the same, 5 or so perfect ones and the rest worse and worse farther and farther from C. The result is that with both the unified 2-2/3 and 1-3/5 on at the same time as the 8 and 4: notes like = C sound very good without any beating at all whereas notes like C# and G# sounding very bad with a lot of beating. If the note has more beating, it =   sounds louder than those notes that have less beating. Therefore the = sound is very uneven. If you tune to equal temperament and use unification of mutations, all of them will be bad, but hopefully if you tune equal temperament correctly, they will all be the same.   Hope this helps your understanding.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ ___________________________________________________________________________= __________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:18:24 -0600   Tom wrote: > >If you tune the unison ranks to the tuner, and then turn around and tune >the mutations to the unisons so they won't beat, isn't this essentially = the >same as tuning the mutations to the tuner? > >Tom >   NO. The reason is temperament. You cannot tune perfect fifths all the = way around the scale from C back to C. The last one you tune will be narrow = by what they call a comma. That is why the fifths are narrowed all the way around the scale in equal temperament so that they will all be the same or =   "equal". They are not perfect fifths or even good, but they are all the same. Because it is a keyboard instrument, the same note that is used to play a fifth is also used for all the other intervals at some point and in =   different keys. In otherwords a C is sometimes a tonic note, sometimes a major third from A flat, sometimes a fifth from F, etc. It is never a perfect fifth as would be the mutation. In otherwords, when you tune a 2-2/3 foot rank you are tuning an octave and a perfect fifth from the note =   corresponding to the key you are depressing. You are tuning a G when you hold down a C. But because it is perfect it is not the same pitch as the = G that you got when you tuned the whole scale in equal temperament (whether = or not you used a tuner) because that note is a narrow fifth to accomodate = the comma.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ ___________________________________________________________________________= __________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mutation Tuning From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 13:55:42 -0700   You could tune the mutations to the tuner so long as you tuned them to the right note. Let's say you were tuning a nazard 2 2/3. If you set the tuner to tune low C and you tune the low note (which is really a G) to the = tuner, then you will be fine. If you set the tuner to start at G and tune = unisons, they will come out out of tune. G and the note a true fifth higher than C are not the same note.   Kelvin   >Kevin: > >If you tune the unison ranks to the tuner, and then turn around and tune >the mutations to the unisons so they won't beat, isn't this essentially >the same as tuning the mutations to the tuner? > >Tom > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org