DIYAPASON-L Digest #211 - Friday, December 22, 2000
 
Re: copper tubing
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re:[Residence Organs]Re: D.E. Chest Magnets
  by "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  copper tubing
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids
  by "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com>
Re: copper tubing
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Magnets and solenoids
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Magnets and solenoids
  by "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com>
Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Questions of volume
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Residence Organ Prayer
  by "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction
  by "Tim Rickman" <tim@uniflex.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction
  by <RDoer30176@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume
  by "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Questions of volume
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
Roll player standardization
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Roll player standardization (2)
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Roll player standardization
  by <RDoer30176@aol.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction
  by "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl>
Basement Pipes and Sump Pumps
  by "John P. Smith" <jnksd82@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume
  by "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Questions of volume
  by "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: copper tubing From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 05:15:04 EST   Brass is not as good a copper! It may crack and warp with age. Go ahead = and use copper tubing, it will work just fine as long as the I.D is not too = much smaller.   Al Sefl  
(back) Subject: Re:[Residence Organs]Re: D.E. Chest Magnets From: "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:13:24   Dear List, I am in need of DE chest magnets to rebuild some old tubular pneumatic chests. If you have some used ones you are willing to part with or know someone who does, please email me specs and your best quantity price. = Please email me directly. Thanks and best wishes. Homer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] copper tubing From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:26:49 -0500   Use the copper tubing.   One thing you might want to do is....after measuring and cutting length = for each tube, dry-scour the tube with a 3M 'greenie' pad to shine them up = then lacquer each one.   Be careful as possible in making bends. Any restrictions will cut off airflow.   Rick      
(back) Subject: Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids From: "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:24:48   Dear List, I would appreciate if someone could explain the difference between magnets =   used for EP action vs. DE chest magnets. Also what kinds are used for slider and pallet windchests. I've seen pictures of electromagnets used for pulling down pallets (ferraresi organs =   sell/manufacture residence organs with this kind of action). Syndyne has a =   fancy proportional action, but haven't been responsive to my inquiries. = I've also read somewhere about slider draw magnets. Info about these would be appreciated. Thanks Homer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: copper tubing From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:35:46 -0500   When bending the copper tubing, you can use a bending tool that is just a steel spring that you slip over the tubing. The spring is of course flexible but it also constrains the tuning walls so that they don't bulge or collapse. If you can't locate these springs at your copper tubing supplier, try a shop that sells the K&E brand of metal shapes especially for models (train, plane, architecture, etc.). You could also fill the tubing with dry sand before bending, but be sure to get all the sand out before using the tubing as part of a pneumatic action!   Scouring and coating the tubes would be a nice touch. Just be sure that the protective coating is *complete*. A small gap in it will allow the underlying copper to discolor at that location.   It is difficult to imagine why Estey would have used brass tubing in this case, since lead tubing was the common material and is much easier to manipulate. Maybe they got a good deal on the brass tubing!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:42:55 -0500   EP magnets have an armature inside that lifts when magnetically attracted. This armature is a small thin steel disc about 3/8" diameter. This = armature opens the windway to a port attached to the primary pneumatic inside the windchest. This primary then collapses the pouch under the pipe or = deflates the secondary pneumatic/pallet valve under the pipe. A book could be = written on the step-by-step procedure of this action.   DE valves are a selonoid with a pivoted spring-loaded valve attached that fits (almost always) directly under each pipe. Convenient, but current = drain is high, and most DE valves operate best on low wind pressure.   Any input?   Rick      
(back) Subject: Re: Magnets and solenoids From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:01:33 -0500   "Homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> asked about the various types of electomagnets used in organs.   The little electro-pneumatic valve units use a small horseshoe magnet of fairly high resistance (100-200-400 ohms, depending...). Since the item = to be moved is a very small iron disc, the magnet doesn't have to be terrible =   powerful. Since the disc moves only a very small distance, a direct = motion toward the magnet poles is sufficient. (Remember that magnetic forces = drop off very significantly with distance.) That small disc serves as a pneumatic valve, allowing wind to exhaust from within a small bellows or pouch that in turn moves the actual valve admitting wind to the pipe. (Or =   perhaps operating yet another bellows or pouch that controls the pipe.)   The electro-mechanical actions such as Wicks' "Direct-Electric" use a much =   larger magnet of lower resistance (40-60-90-120 ohms, depending...) with a =   pivoted armature that swings past the magnet pole, getting ever closer perhaps but never actually touching. The magnet frame is such that the swinging arm serves as the opposite pole, thereby helping the magnetic attraction. The attached valve is of moderate size (1/2 inch to 1-1/2 inches). These valves almost always provide wind directly to the pipes, although I've seen such devices operating a valve that exhausts a very large pouch for a very large valve for a very large pipe (in a very large instrument, largely!).   Even larger versions of the swing-arm magnets can be used for direct pull down of pallets in slider chests. Laukhuff sells such devices, with about =   a 30 ohm resistance, and I believe that Organ Supply sells them here in = the USA. Since the magnet's pull is minimal in the at-rest position and the pallet is under the greatest pressure in that position, the magnet has to be quite powerful. This is a good example of two things that are in conflict -- just like an automobile battery that has to provide the greatest amount of current to start the engine in winter when the motor = oil is thickest and when the battery's chemistry is the weakest!   Small solenoids have been used for pipe valves but they seem to have a = poor reputation, perhaps due to the increased possibility of dirt jamming the plunger, something that is highly unlikely to happen to swing-arm devices. Very large solenoids are used to move sliders in slider chests, as are re-worked Volkswagen windshield wiper motor units (very "SLIC"!).   For the purposes of do-it-yourself home organ building, the first two = types of devices are of the greatest interest, the electro-pneumatic valve units =   and the electro-mechanical note valves. New, they each cost about $5 here =   in the USA. The larger pull-down magnets, slider solenoids, and slider motors tend to be rather expensive and are more suited for very large instruments.   The proportional magnets to which Homer refers are probably the ones made by Syncordia, rather than Syndyne (who make stop-tab actions, pistons, and =   the like), but I might be confused. The Syncordia system seems to use multiple swing-arm magnets plus sensors (per note) and a processor to achieve its results.   Regarding the common (in the USA) Reisner "601" family of magnets, Organ Supply now makes them (having bought Reisner). While their catalog = doesn't mention them, replacement valves are available, slightly thicker than = OSI's normal felt-and-leather valves. If you need to replace some of these valves, give OSI a call (or send e-mail) for the catalog numbers (which I have at home and of course can't quite remember right now!). They suggest =   using PVC-E adhesive, and it *does* hold quite nicely! I got 100 each of two sizes to replace valves that had been water-damaged or insect-damaged on many of the old 601s that I've salvaged from some of the most "spectacular" ""windchests"" I've ever seen!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Magnets and solenoids From: "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:26:40   Dear Larry, Thanks for the helpful info. And I stand corrected. Yes, it is syncordia = not syndyne. Best regards Homer     >From: Larry Chace <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> >Reply-To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> >To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> >Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Magnets and solenoids >Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:01:33 -0500 > >"Homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> asked about the various types of >electomagnets used in organs. > >The little electro-pneumatic valve units use a small horseshoe magnet of >fairly high resistance (100-200-400 ohms, depending...). Since the item = to >be moved is a very small iron disc, the magnet doesn't have to be = terrible >powerful. Since the disc moves only a very small distance, a direct = motion >toward the magnet poles is sufficient. (Remember that magnetic forces = drop >off very significantly with distance.) That small disc serves as a >pneumatic valve, allowing wind to exhaust from within a small bellows or >pouch that in turn moves the actual valve admitting wind to the pipe. = (Or >perhaps operating yet another bellows or pouch that controls the pipe.) > >The electro-mechanical actions such as Wicks' "Direct-Electric" use a = much >larger magnet of lower resistance (40-60-90-120 ohms, depending...) with = a >pivoted armature that swings past the magnet pole, getting ever closer >perhaps but never actually touching. The magnet frame is such that the >swinging arm serves as the opposite pole, thereby helping the magnetic >attraction. The attached valve is of moderate size (1/2 inch to 1-1/2 >inches). These valves almost always provide wind directly to the pipes, >although I've seen such devices operating a valve that exhausts a very >large pouch for a very large valve for a very large pipe (in a very large >instrument, largely!). > >Even larger versions of the swing-arm magnets can be used for direct pull >down of pallets in slider chests. Laukhuff sells such devices, with = about >a 30 ohm resistance, and I believe that Organ Supply sells them here in = the >USA. Since the magnet's pull is minimal in the at-rest position and the >pallet is under the greatest pressure in that position, the magnet has to >be quite powerful. This is a good example of two things that are in >conflict -- just like an automobile battery that has to provide the >greatest amount of current to start the engine in winter when the motor = oil >is thickest and when the battery's chemistry is the weakest! > >Small solenoids have been used for pipe valves but they seem to have a = poor >reputation, perhaps due to the increased possibility of dirt jamming the >plunger, something that is highly unlikely to happen to swing-arm >devices. Very large solenoids are used to move sliders in slider chests, >as are re-worked Volkswagen windshield wiper motor units (very "SLIC"!). > >For the purposes of do-it-yourself home organ building, the first two = types >of devices are of the greatest interest, the electro-pneumatic valve = units >and the electro-mechanical note valves. New, they each cost about $5 = here >in the USA. The larger pull-down magnets, slider solenoids, and slider >motors tend to be rather expensive and are more suited for very large >instruments. > >The proportional magnets to which Homer refers are probably the ones made >by Syncordia, rather than Syndyne (who make stop-tab actions, pistons, = and >the like), but I might be confused. The Syncordia system seems to use >multiple swing-arm magnets plus sensors (per note) and a processor to >achieve its results. > >Regarding the common (in the USA) Reisner "601" family of magnets, Organ >Supply now makes them (having bought Reisner). While their catalog = doesn't >mention them, replacement valves are available, slightly thicker than = OSI's >normal felt-and-leather valves. If you need to replace some of these >valves, give OSI a call (or send e-mail) for the catalog numbers (which I >have at home and of course can't quite remember right now!). They suggest >using PVC-E adhesive, and it *does* hold quite nicely! I got 100 each of >two sizes to replace valves that had been water-damaged or insect-damaged >on many of the old 601s that I've salvaged from some of the most >"spectacular" ""windchests"" I've ever seen! > >Larry Chace > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >   _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.    
(back) Subject: Re:[Residence Organs]Re: Magnets and solenoids From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:43:36 -0600   At 12/22/00 01:24 PM, Homer wrote: >Dear List, >I would appreciate if someone could explain the difference between = magnets >used for EP action vs. DE chest magnets. >Also what kinds are used for slider and pallet windchests.   Hi, Homer!   The three types of magnets you mention are all designed to do different things within an organ's action.   EP chest magnets have a smallish coil, which operates a tiny valve = internal to the magnet itself, which is intended to pass just enough air to exhaust or inflate a small area, like the cavity under an individual pouch valve. The action of the magnet (sometimes through intermediate mechanism) allows the pouch (which bears the valve seat itself) to operate, thus supplying wind to a pipe or other portion of action. These magnets would normally not be capable of passing enough wind to actually make a pipe speak.   DE chest magnets, on the other hand, have larger and more powerful coils (which draw more electricity, of course) and have the valve seat affixed directly to their armatures ("armature" =3D the part of the magnet that = moves when the coil is energized). When these magnets are operated, they directly let the wind into the pipes, without pitmans, pouches, or other intermediate action.   Electromagnets found in slider chests ("pull-down" magnets) are the = largest and most powerful of the three types of chest magnet. These have their armature connected to a linkage of some sort which affixes to each large pallet valve in the chest, and when operated they serve to simply pull the pallet open (letting wind into the note channel in the chest). These pallet valves are larger than any individual valve (as they potentially supply wind for several pipes at the same time), thus the magnets themselves need to be bigger to do the job reliably.   All three types of these magnets (or slight adaptations of same) are also sometimes found within electromechanical relay equipment in organs, where they can perform a myraid of functions involved in making the switches "switch".   A fourth type of solenoid sometimes found in organs with slider chests are those that move the sliders themselves. These are the largest of any electromagnets in organs, usually having powerful coils to provide the relative large amount of energy needed to move the entire slider. These operate by simply pushing or pulling the slider back and forth an inch or so to either turn the stop on or off -- but do not directly control the organ wind going towards the pipes.   For more in-depth information on any of the above, I'd recommend = consulting either Barnes' "The Contemporary American Organ" or Audsley's "The Art of Organ Building" -- both these books provide a good explanation with diagrams and pictures to help explain how these actions operate.   Hope all this makes sense to you!   Tim Bovard Little Rock, AR      
(back) Subject: Questions of volume From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:51:47 -0500   Hi, all. Craig Elder's "Howdy" note was fun to read. Craig's project has =   been one of the inspirations, watching (via e-mail and photos) his transformation of a bedroom into an organ chamber and his really very = quick (just a couple of years!) construction of what I would call quite an extensive residence pipe organ. One thing that amazed me was his ability to design and build and install the organ without hearing the pipework until the very end, and that raises the question that I'd like to pose.   Just how do you (all) deal with the question of making your pipework suitable for its new home? I tried to be selective in my purchases, choosing ranks from former residence organs (Estey and Aeolian) or softer ranks from church organs (Dulcianas, Aeolines, small Vox Humana, etc.), ranks that were originally voiced on low-ish pressure (3-5").   The recent work to get one (count it!) rank playing was enlightening. The =   Estey Clarabella, from a residence organ, clearly "wanted" to play on = about 5" pressure; attempt to use lower pressures produced anemic results. (I could have used lower pressure and then opened the toes, but the net = effect would have been the same.) Playing that one rank at 8-4-2 in an empty house was almost "too much" at the console; the basement organ chamber is directly under the console and has two tone openings, 20" by 32", one on each side of the console. In a bit of a panic, I blocked off 1/2 of each tone opening with a sheet of acrylic plastic, and that did take off some = of the "edge". Those tone opening will be fitted with swell shades at some time, but I had always thought that they were small enough that the pipework would have a very difficult time "getting out"; I may have been mistaken about that.   During our recent holiday party, with about 40 people in the house, the organ wasn't too loud. In fact, in order to accompany some Christmas carols along with a baroque Oboe, the organist used everything that those 73 pipes would produce and was just able to keep up. (Proving, of course, =   that people are fuzzy and absorb sound!)   Still, I had anticipated that the Clarabella would, at most, be at a MP level rather than MF+. Looking back at the documents about its original home, it is clear that the chamber was in the attic and that the pipes might have been voice on the loud-ish side in order to be heard elsewhere in the house.   Revoicing is always an option, although with wooden pipework there are perhaps fewer parameters to adjust. In the case of this particular rank, there are some others out in the barn that might prove more suitable. An Estey wooden harmonic flute, for example, when "de-harmonic-ed", can produce a very fine (and gentle) "Holzprinzipal" sound, and this might be = a way to go.   Back to the main question -- what have others of you done to adjust things =   to make them suitable? Have you re-adjusted your plans, perhaps cutting back on the size of the instrument? Have you "pre-auditioned" your pipework? I know that some folks have given up on used ranks (for some voices) and have commissioned new pipework especially for residence organ = use.   (By the way, one of the "fun" things during the party was playing low CCC of the 16' Posaune, which I jury-rigged so see how it would work. While slightly on the raucous side, and with little effort put into regulation, it did cause many folks to grin, and so I'll proceed to see if I can = really fit the whole thing in, even at the expense of other material. This is a set of full-length 1910s Austin resonators, highly mitered, fitted with 1970s OSI bottom ends.)   Happy holidays and happy holiday home organ building to you all!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Residence Organ Prayer From: "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:37:22 -0500   Merry Christmas List:   As I venture out on my last scheduled tuning (on an almost impossible tuning round this year), I felt that you may appreciate the prayer that I found posted in one of my churches: ___   Dear God,   So far today, I have done alright: I haven't gossiped, lost my temper, been greedy or grumpy, been nasty, selfish or overindulgent. I am very thankful for that.   But in a few minutes God, I am going to get out of bed.... and from then on, I am probably going to need a lot more help.   Amen! ___   Hugh   p.s. I hope to use the holidays to catch up on my reading (and responses) to many emails & postings.  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction From: "Tim Rickman" <tim@uniflex.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:35:52 -0800   Hello Louis   I'm not quite sure if you are looking for a complete new relay system for your organ, or if you just need a midi record playback system to be ADDED to the existing organ relay.   We don't have a "midi" system, but a rather complex IBM PC Based relay system that HAS Midi capabilities built into it. There are more cost effective midi interface solutions built by other providers for a 2m = 6 rank instrument such as yours. Our relay systems are designed to control much larger instruments 20 ranks or more and it would NOT be cost effective for the instrument you have. Our relay system would cost around $10,000.00 US, and I don't think you would want to spend that kind of money for your instrument. I hate to turn down business, but as I said there are much more cost effective solutions to the smaller = instruments.   I'm just getting ready to head out for the Christmas holidays, and when I = return next week, I'll send you some further information and contacts for Midi = based systems.   If you have some time, you might let me know if you are looking to replace = the ENTIRE organ relay, or if you are simply looking for an ADD -ON midi record / play system for the organ. That would help narrow down the search of what you are interested in.   Thanks for you interest, and I'll send some further information in the = coming week.   Regards   Tim Rickman Rickman Control Systems.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> To: <tim@uniflex.com> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction     > Hello Tim, > I have to restore a Estey Residence Player Pipeorgan from 1923, a 2mp = 6D1 > organ. > How much will it cost to buy your midi system, programs etc. connectors, > everything you will need to bring it in for this type > of instrument? > > Greetings > > Louis Huivenaar > Netherlands > Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer > Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe > +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) > +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) > +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) > Website: www.harmonium.com > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens = Tim > Rickman > Verzonden: donderdag 14 december 2000 4:10 > Aan: Residence Organ List > Onderwerp: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players and = Introduction > > Hello List > > I guess it's time to come out of lurking and introuduce myslef AND I = have > an answer > for Larry Chase's question regarding how Wurlitzer set stops on their = roll > player. > > I'm Tim Rickman, I live in "Sin City",Sunny Las Vegas Nevada and LOVE it > here. > I own a 3M 15 Rank Rober Morton Pipe organ that came to > me last year with the passing of a very close friend. The organ is now = in > my > garage / studio awaiting to be erected and installed. > > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction From: <RDoer30176@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:34:53 EST   In a message dated 12/22/00 9:40:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, = tim@uniflex.com writes:   Hi Tim   I am building a pipe organ, lets say about 10 ranks. I am using = Devtronics boards. My question is this. Even though I have about 100 Wur R165 rolls and 105 = Wur concert organ rolls. I made the molds and flages for the Concert rolls.   Some of us should get together and come up with sort of a standard layout = for a midi system. For instance, if you or others furnish music for pipe = organs, changes to fit ones organ should be minimized by having a good place to = start.   How about that Tim, Larry , Craig and others?   << We don't have a "midi" system, but a rather complex IBM PC Based relay system that HAS Midi capabilities built into it. There are more cost effective midi interface solutions built by other providers for a 2m = 6 rank instrument such as yours. Our relay systems are designed to control much larger instruments 20 ranks or more and it would NOT be cost effective for the instrument you have. Our relay system would cost around $10,000.00 US, and I don't think you would want to spend that kind of money for your instrument. I hate to turn down business, = but as I said there are much more cost effective solutions to the smaller instruments. >>  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:50:36 -0600   Dear Larry and List:   Larry Chase wrote: >Playing that one rank at 8-4-2 in an empty >house was almost "too much" at the console; the basement organ chamber is >directly under the console and has two tone openings, 20" by 32", one on >each side of the console. In a bit of a panic, I blocked off 1/2 of each >tone opening with a sheet of acrylic plastic, and that did take off some = of >the "edge".   You must have exceptional hearing if you feel it is too loud and it's speaking from a room underneath with such small openings for the sound to come out. I can't imagine even a very loud diapason being too loud under those conditions.   I, on the other hand, prefer to play with as much volume as possible. = With all my pipes unenclosed and the console only a few feet away, I still feel =   like I should have more volume. Especially the salicionals that almost can't be heard at all without playing them at 8 and 4. Most often I play with the diapasons at 8, 4, 2-2/3, and 2 and for an extra boost I put on = the 4' keyboard coupler. The mixture would seem to do the trick also, but I haven't got up the energy to tune it.   Happy Holidays, Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:00:11 -0400     Merry Christmas from the Hopkins Family http://www.geocities.com/gedackt98/HolidayGreetings.html    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:07:40 -0700   Hello all,   I couldn't help posting in response to Larry's posting. My organ room is = on the big side and maybe my situation won't apply very well to other situations. But this question of volume and voicing has been much on my mind lately. I struggled with the question of what to do with my diapasons for a long time because I didn't like them. Finally I decided that several ranks needed to be cut up and I bought a proportional divider and a couple other tools to do that. I posted to the list about my plans and got numerous reponses telling me that I would ruin my pipework and no one seemed to think it was a good idea. (I did talk to an organ technician = from my hometown who agreed that cutting them up would have the effect I = thought I needed.) I decided to start with the swell 4' principal because there is nothing historic about those pipes and they suffered some damage in the past. (They got walked on by a 3 year old girl.) After I did that I posted about the results which were favorable.)   After that I decided to tackle the great where the real problem was. The 42sc 8' Diapason was just what I wanted, but the 4, 2 2/3 and 2' ranks = were not working with it. They were too bright and did not blend in. I like to be able play a verse of a hymn on the 8' Diapason and then add the 4' for the second verse, but the sound was so incompatible that I wouldn't do that. Using all 4 ranks made a sound that I wouldn't call painfully loud, but close to it, and rather strident. If you used the 8' alone it sounded very full but quite mild in tone. The 4' alone was clearly softer than the 8' but had this almost rasping tone quality.   Anyway, out with the knife and I hacked away at it. I found that in all = the ranks I cut up (sw 4', gt 4, gt 2 2/3') that the tenor octave pipes were cut up higher than the trebles or the bottom octave. I didn't mean to be inconsistent in cutting the pipes up, but I couldn't bring myself to cut a whole lot off at once. In the bass, I cut them up several times till I reached 1/3 and didn't like them till I got there. In the treble they sounded good with little or no cutting up. I didn't cut the 2' at all, I just softened them at the toe hole. The result: It sounds wonderful now!   We had our 2nd Christmas Hymn Sing last Sunday. It was a lot of work and = it is a relief to have it over. Due to bad weather and other circumstances we only had about 45 people here, where we had 60 last year. I was hoping for 75. But we had a choir of 10 people that we rounded up and we practised = for about 6 weeks and sang 5 songs in the program (Rutter Candlelight Carol, Mendelssohn There shall a Star come out from Jacob, Holst Let all Mortal Flesh keep silence, Wilberg Away in a Manger and Richard Elliot Silent Night). I have played for choirs on a number of church organ usually 9 to 16 ranks and usually about 10 to 16 singers. I have always wearied of the complaints that the organ was too loud. Some of my singers in this group have pretty good voices. But I was constantly amazed at the balance = between organ and choir. I did not have to go easy on the organ at all. In fact we worried more about getting the choir to sing soft enough in many places. = At the end of the Holst I used everything I had and I just wished I had the tuba playing for the fanfares. We ended the program with the Wilcocks O Come all ye Faithful. I did a one measure modulation before the 3rd verse that I heard on an lp once, during which I opened the crescendo all the = way and added the 32' resultant. Everyone sang out and the organ thundered and I wished I had a cymbelstern too. It was too much fun.   One more relavent story I have to tell. I played the Bach and the Widor = for our chapter's Pipes Spectacular on an 1992 11 rank Shoenstein. It had a Diapason 16-8 and a trumpet 16-4 and III mixture and for its size it was quite satisfying to play. I kept asking my wife and children which was louder it or our organ. They couldn't decide and would say in an uncertain tone of voice that they were about the same. Finally my wife said that our organ rumbled more and felt louder, but wasn't quite so harsh. I liked = that answer. (At that time I didn't have my III playing and I hadn't cut up the diapasons).   That is the long way of saying that I think that tone quality is more important to the organ's success than the volume of sound. Any rank that makes a sound which sticks out is making your organ seem loud even if it's not. If all the ranks stick out then you can hardly stand to hear it any even a soft volume. That is the problem with our 70's Rodgers at church. That is what has been on my mind concerning volume lately. Now I need to have a talk with my III (don't worry, toe holes only).   As for the tuba, the pipes 8'+ are on a winded and wired up. They need cleaning, tuning and regulating. I am also worried about the wind = pressure. Maybe its not enough or maybe the windline isn't big enough. I haven't had time to figure it out yet. I need a windchest for the16' octave.   After that I have an 8' flute (gt) and Vox Humana to hook up.   Kelvin      
(back) Subject: Roll player standardization From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:48:24 -0500   RDoer30176@aol.com (whose name, I have to admit, I've misplaced!) asked about standardization of organ player information in MIDI, and this is a topic that has come up from time to time in various places.   It is relatively easy to assign each MIDI channel to represent a keyboard. You have to decide which order to assign them, common orderings =   being (1) Great, Swell, Pedal, Choir and (2) Pedal, Choir, Great, Swell. (Theatre organ folks have to translate the names!) You have to decide what MIDI note corresponds to the bottom key on the keyboard. Note =   #36 is a pretty good bet for manuals, but should be Pedal be that note (good if you want to produce organ scores) or note #24, 16' CCC?   Beyond those considerations, everything else gets complex very quickly, mostly because the MIDI standard, and its General MIDI variant, pretty = much ignore organic things like stops and swell shades. You can find pairings, =   but it isn't complete.   Allen Organ Company, Peterson, Devtronix, and Z-tronics all have defined their own encoding formats for stops (etc.), and some of those companies can also handle some of the other data formats. The Allen and Peterson approaches attempt to define a standard organ specification, whose many stops are then somehow "mapped" to the actual stops available on a give organ. This is a similar approach to that used by some of the paper = player roll companies years ago.   The Devtronix and Z-tronics schemes are simpler and faster but make no attempt to use the same encoding for the same stop on different organs. The stops are simply numbered in whatever order the installer = chooses.   In general, MIDI systems can be made to ignore things they don't = understand -- most of them do that anyway. Therefore, if the notes are recorded in a =   fairly standard fashion, then MIDI performances can be used on different instruments as long as someone else operates the stops. This is just like =   the old Aeolian 116-note rolls that just played the notes and ignored the stops.   I like the idea of some sort of standardized encoding of stops, but = *whose* standard would it be?!? ;-) There are conflicting goals (speed vs. flexibility and compatibility).   The simple answer is probably this: whoever first "publishes" a large number of MIDI organ recordings will end up setting the standard. Now, = who will that be...   One approach to solving the problem of various formats is to provide or produce translators. They can be programs that process the MIDI files on disk or they can be devices that process the MIDI data itself in real time. I've had some good luck with the later, performing some simple transformations to make non-organic performances at least tolerable on the =   organ.   Larry    
(back) Subject: Roll player standardization (2) From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:09:06 -0500   Perhaps it would be helpful to give an "organic" view of General MIDI as a =   way of helping folks see what matches and what doesn't match. The following is informal, "off the top of the head", and may not be 100% correct, but it should be close enough for this purpose.   General MIDI defines a 16 keyboard instrument. Each keyboard has 128 notes, starting at 64' CCCCC; middle C is note #60. Each note can be played with an initial "velocity", much like the amount of force that a pianist might use when playing a given note; there are 127 discreet values =   for the velocity. Each note can be played and can be held until released.   Of the 16 keyboards, 15 are identical, except that each one has its own identification number. The remaining keyboard, #10 (!!!) is different in that each "note" is a non-tuned percussion or sound effect. In most = cases, perhaps even in *all* cases, these sounds decay right away, just as the real instruments do.   For the other 15 keyboards, there is a standard definition of 128 "stops". These all play at unison pitch but they have different tone qualities; they are generally grouped into bunches of similar voices and they include the full range of orchestral instruments, brass, woodwinds, strings, and (tuned) percussions. There are even 8 (or so) "organ" sounds =   ("Church Organ", "Jazz Organ", "Accordian", and so on). These 128 stops are called "programs" and are selected by "program change" commands consisting of two 8-bit bytes that indicate the keyboard (channel) number and the stop (program) number. Only one stop can be active on a given keyboard at one time.   There are no couplers. Many synthesizers and sound modules have manual controls for transposing up and down by octaves.   In addition, there is a large set of "controllers", things that change things. In general they operate on one keyboard (channel) at a time. You =   can specify a channel's volume, it "modulation" (sort of tremulant), whether or not it is sustained, and so on.   The MIDI data appears in real time as 8-bytes, each taking 320 microseconds. To play a note or to release a note takes 3 (and sometimes just 2) bytes. Everything has to happen one byte at a time for the entire =   instrument. A MIDI device can ignore those things that it doesn't understand or that have no meaning for it.   A sample, translated into English might read: 1. Turn on the Violin on channel 1. 2. Turn on the Flute on channel 2. 3. Play middle C on channel 1 (violin). 4. After .1 seconds, play middle D# on channel 2 (flute). 5. After .03 seconds, release middle C on channel 1. 6. After .06 seconds, play middle G on channel 2 (flute). 7. Immediately, play middle A# on channel 2 (flute). ....   Ok, using that model, your assignment is to "translate" music written for such an instrument into valid music for the pipe organ! You have 30 minutes... ;-)   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Roll player standardization From: <RDoer30176@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:15:50 EST   In a message dated 12/22/00 11:47:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, rlc1@etnainstruments.com writes:   << I've had some good luck with the later, performing some simple transformations to make non-organic performances at least tolerable on = the organ. Larry >>   Hi Larry and all   Yes, Larry, I forgot to put my name on my post, so I don't forget again = it's Russ Doering.   I liked Devtronics channel numbers. channel 1 for pedal and on up for = manuals. This way keyboard expansion just goes up. 1-2-3-4, etc. I will use channel 10 for percussion and use the standard GM set so that = if I use regular midi files it will be compatible.   Now The big question? I am thinking to use channels 14 and 15 for up to = 128 stop tabs. IN WHAT ORDER? Should be enough for a large organ. Then = smaller organs would fit in somewhere. Channel 16 would be used for all other signals. Shades and what ever is needed.   Well, here is a start.   Russ  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:35:33 +0100   Hello Tim, Thanks for your advices. We keep the original cables in the organ to the windchest. What we ar looking fir is an add-on system. You can play the player system as wel, and the manuals. But it would be nice to know if the instrument can be used also by = computer. It has 7 ranks in duplex for both manuals. We also have already one extra rank, so it will be 8 together. My customer want really I have to bring the instrument back in its = original state as it was build in 1923. Stil it would be nice to use an computer as a player. So, here you can deal with I hope.   Have a blessed christmas,   Yours sincerely   Louis Huivenaar Netherlands Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) Website: www.harmonium.com   -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens Tim Rickman Verzonden: vrijdag 22 december 2000 18:36 Aan: Residence Organ List Onderwerp: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players = andIntroduction   Hello Louis   I'm not quite sure if you are looking for a complete new relay system for your organ, or if you just need a midi record playback system to be ADDED to the existing organ relay.   We don't have a "midi" system, but a rather complex IBM PC Based relay system that HAS Midi capabilities built into it. There are more cost effective midi interface solutions built by other providers for a 2m = 6 rank instrument such as yours. Our relay systems are designed to control much larger instruments 20 ranks or more and it would NOT be cost effective for the instrument you have. Our relay system would cost around $10,000.00 US, and I don't think you would want to spend that kind of money for your instrument. I hate to turn down business, but as I said there are much more cost effective solutions to the smaller instruments.   I'm just getting ready to head out for the Christmas holidays, and when I return next week, I'll send you some further information and contacts for Midi based systems.   If you have some time, you might let me know if you are looking to replace the ENTIRE organ relay, or if you are simply looking for an ADD -ON midi record / play system for the organ. That would help narrow down the search of what you are interested in.   Thanks for you interest, and I'll send some further information in the coming week.   Regards   Tim Rickman Rickman Control Systems.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> To: <tim@uniflex.com> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players andIntroduction     > Hello Tim, > I have to restore a Estey Residence Player Pipeorgan from 1923, a 2mp = 6D1 > organ. > How much will it cost to buy your midi system, programs etc. connectors, > everything you will need to bring it in for this type > of instrument? > > Greetings > > Louis Huivenaar > Netherlands > Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer > Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe > +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) > +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) > +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) > Website: www.harmonium.com > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens = Tim > Rickman > Verzonden: donderdag 14 december 2000 4:10 > Aan: Residence Organ List > Onderwerp: [Residence Organs] Re: Wurlitzer Roll Players and = Introduction > > Hello List > > I guess it's time to come out of lurking and introuduce myslef AND I = have > an answer > for Larry Chase's question regarding how Wurlitzer set stops on their = roll > player. > > I'm Tim Rickman, I live in "Sin City",Sunny Las Vegas Nevada and LOVE it > here. > I own a 3M 15 Rank Rober Morton Pipe organ that came to > me last year with the passing of a very close friend. The organ is now = in > my > garage / studio awaiting to be erected and installed. > > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Basement Pipes and Sump Pumps From: "John P. Smith" <jnksd82@home.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:55:23 -0600   I advise anyone with a basement installation to equip their sump with TWO AC-operated pumps, on separate circuits, as well as a battery operated = pump. Battery operated pumps are useful to cover power outages, which are = usually of short duration. However, sump pumps can fail for a number of reasons besides power loss. Battery pumps have smaller capacities than AC pumps, thus more trouble keeping up with a heavy flow, and although they include = a charging cirucuit for the battery, eventually the battery can be exhausted in heavy use. If your AC pump dies but there is still power, you have better protection with a second AC pump than with a battery pump.   I originally had a single AC pump and an Ace in the Hole (battery pump). The AC pump seized up while I was out of town for a week. The Ace kicked in, but there was a couple of days of heavy rain, the battery died and I returned to a flooded basement. Fortunately this hapened before I had any organ components down there. I now have two AC pumps, on different circuits, so if one fails the other will take over, even if the failure blows the fuse.   Another point of vulnerability with sump pumps is the sensor switches. I have found the common magnetic float type supplied with most pumps to be troublesome. They get waterlogged and short out, jam against objects in the sump, etc. Simer Pump, the maker of the Ace in the Hole, makes a solid-state level sensor switch that works very well for both AC and = battery operated pumps. I have three of them in my sump.     John P. Smith Champaign, IL    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:16:11 -0800 (PST)   I can't recommend enough to you and everyone who builds a house organ (myself included) to be careful about the total amount of volume you expose yourself to. Hearing damage can and will occur with too much exposure to high noise levels, and once you have it you will have ringing in your ears that NEVER stops, plus high frequency loss.   It's happened to me over the years - ringing day and night and 75 decibels of high frequency hearing loss. When that happens music isn't very enjoyable anymore, and you find yourself really wishing you could have silence, even for a little while. But it doesn't happen.   So to protect yourself build your instruments so that they don't overload your ears. At Radio Shack you can buy a decibel meter to check how loud your organ is. I'd try to keep it no louder than 85 decibels.   Cheers,   Lou     --- Bart Kleineweber <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> wrote: > Dear Larry and List: > I can't imagine even a very loud diapason > being too loud under > those conditions. > > I, on the other hand, prefer to play with as much > volume as possible. With > all my pipes unenclosed and the console only a few > feet away, I still feel > like I should have more volume. Especially the > salicionals that almost > can't be heard at all without playing them at 8 and > 4. Most often I play > with the diapasons at 8, 4, 2-2/3, and 2 and for an > extra boost I put on the > 4' keyboard coupler. The mixture would seem to do > the trick also, but I > haven't got up the energy to tune it.     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:29:17 -0800 (PST)   Hi Larry,   Congrats to you on having part of your instrument playing. I still remember when you came to visit and realized you had the right house when you saw the two blowers on the front porch.   To answer your questions, part of what you do to get pipework to work is experiment. If a stop is too soft or thin sounding and they're made of wood, you can tune them a note lower thereby increasing the scale. Talk to local organ builders about finding a used low C if you do this. While your clarabella didn't like lower pressure some ranks respond quite well. You might try reducing the pressure on the clarabella and gluing lead upper lips on the pipes to reduce the cutup. Or you might want to trade that set for a different rank. I've ended up trading a number of ranks over the years to get what I need to sound right.   I would recommend buying pipework designed for 4" or less wp to keep it from being too loud. The Dulicanas and aeolines can work, but being specific types of stops (thinnish very quiet string type stops) you might find yourself wanting more variety of sound.   Your idea of swell shades in the floor openings is a good one, and that is what I've done for the front of my organ chamber - I set the shades to give a volume level that is comfortable to me at the console.   Best of luck as you continue your exciting project.   Lou Paff     --- Larry Chace <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> wrote: > Hi, all. Craig Elder's "Howdy" note was fun to > read. Craig's project has > been one of the inspirations, watching (via e-mail > and photos) his > transformation of a bedroom into an organ chamber > and his really very quick > (just a couple of years!) construction of what I > would call quite an > extensive residence pipe organ. One thing that > amazed me was his ability > to design and build and install the organ without > hearing the pipework > until the very end, and that raises the question > that I'd like to pose. > > Just how do you (all) deal with the question of > making your pipework > suitable for its new home? I tried to be selective > in my purchases, > choosing ranks from former residence organs (Estey > and Aeolian) or softer > ranks from church organs (Dulcianas, Aeolines, small > Vox Humana, etc.), > ranks that were originally voiced on low-ish > pressure (3-5"). > > The recent work to get one (count it!) rank playing > was enlightening. The > Estey Clarabella, from a residence organ, clearly > "wanted" to play on about > 5" pressure; attempt to use lower pressures produced > anemic results. (I > could have used lower pressure and then opened the > toes, but the net effect > would have been the same.) Playing that one rank at > 8-4-2 in an empty > house was almost "too much" at the console; the > basement organ chamber is > directly under the console and has two tone > openings, 20" by 32", one on > each side of the console. In a bit of a panic, I > blocked off 1/2 of each > tone opening with a sheet of acrylic plastic, and > that did take off some of > the "edge". Those tone opening will be fitted with > swell shades at some > time, but I had always thought that they were small > enough that the > pipework would have a very difficult time "getting > out"; I may have been > mistaken about that. > > During our recent holiday party, with about 40 > people in the house, the > organ wasn't too loud. In fact, in order to > accompany some Christmas > carols along with a baroque Oboe, the organist used > everything that those > 73 pipes would produce and was just able to keep up. > (Proving, of course, > that people are fuzzy and absorb sound!) > > Still, I had anticipated that the Clarabella would, > at most, be at a MP > level rather than MF+. Looking back at the > documents about its original > home, it is clear that the chamber was in the attic > and that the pipes > might have been voice on the loud-ish side in order > to be heard elsewhere > in the house. > > Revoicing is always an option, although with wooden > pipework there are > perhaps fewer parameters to adjust. In the case of > this particular rank, > there are some others out in the barn that might > prove more suitable. An > Estey wooden harmonic flute, for example, when > "de-harmonic-ed", can > produce a very fine (and gentle) "Holzprinzipal" > sound, and this might be a > way to go. > > Back to the main question -- what have others of you > done to adjust things > to make them suitable? Have you re-adjusted your > plans, perhaps cutting > back on the size of the instrument? Have you > "pre-auditioned" your > pipework? I know that some folks have given up on > used ranks (for some > voices) and have commissioned new pipework > especially for residence organ use. > > (By the way, one of the "fun" things during the > party was playing low CCC > of the 16' Posaune, which I jury-rigged so see how > it would work. While > slightly on the raucous side, and with little effort > put into regulation, > it did cause many folks to grin, and so I'll proceed > to see if I can really > fit the whole thing in, even at the expense of other > material. This is a > set of full-length 1910s Austin resonators, highly > mitered, fitted with > 1970s OSI bottom ends.) > > Happy holidays and happy holiday home organ building > to you all! > > Larry Chace > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and > builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Questions of volume From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:38:57 -0600   Henry Paff wrote: > > I can't recommend enough to you and everyone who > builds a house organ (myself included) to be careful > about the total amount of volume you expose yourself > to........ * * * > I'd try to keep it no louder than 85 decibels. I believe the EPA recommends 80-82 dB. F. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com