DIYAPASON-L Digest #123 - Monday, July 17, 2000
 
Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flu	tes
  by "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu>
Attempt to get listed
  by "Donald H. Peterson" <dpetetx@airmail.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Bernard C. Nordmann" <bcnordmann@cdmnet.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Attempt to get listed
  by "Bernard C. Nordmann" <bcnordmann@cdmnet.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Kurt Schlieter" <kschliet@execpc.com>
Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:41:07 CDT   Hi Listers: First of all kudos to Craig Elders on his voicing job. It looks like it will be one of the finest residence instruments around.   Over the weekend I started revoicing my wood flutes. My plan was to fill = in the nicking and produce a more classical or baroque gedeckt sound with = more chiff. I removed the cap, I filled them all in nicely with wood filler, = the kind that hardens quickly so you can sand it. I put them all back together =   and put them back in the chest. I turned on the organ and started playing =   them, I couldn't tell any difference! I was told I should lower the = cutups by gluing a piece of cardboard or veneer over the existing cutup. I will need help for this so I can have someone to hear the pipe while I am adjusting the cutup. Any other suggestions to arrive at the sound I want?   Thanks.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL prinzipal8@hotmail.com http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:19:38 -0400   Hi Bart and friends,   You wrote:   > I removed the cap, I filled them all in nicely with wood filler, >the kind that hardens quickly so you can sand it. I put them all >back together and put them back in the chest. I turned on the organ >and started playing them, I couldn't tell any difference! I was >told I should lower the cutups by gluing a piece of cardboard or >veneer over the existing cutup.   I would say that is probably the problem. I believe Craig has had the same problem as his flute cutups are considerably higher than mine. My Gedackt is quite chiffy and it even has some light nicking. The cutups are just above 1/4, around 2/7 I believe.   My low bass pipes need to be cut up some though as the bass is a bit weak at the low end.   Eric    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood Flu tes From: "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:14:55 -0500   Good day, Bart, Eric and all!   I went through the same with my Gedeckt. I filled the nicks and sanded everything very carefully. But not the sound that I thought I would get. = I just knew with all my work, I would have some chiff or something. But it still sounded like a heavily nicked pipe. My cutups are a little high and, as stated, that is more than likely why they sound that way. I tried lowering the cupup with cutout pipe-metal and did change things somewhat, but not a lot. As I mentioned last week, the 8' range of my pipes are = just too weak for what I want so I am going to replace my Gedeckt so I can get more "body". That is one reason that I have not played around to see what = I could do to my Gedeckt. By the way, with what I have done, the upper pipework, say 4' on up, is wonderful. A sound I would be very happy with. But, I just need more 8' "foundation".   Everyone have a wonderful week!   Craig Elders   > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Sagmuller [SMTP:ess4@psu.edu] > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:20 PM > To: Residence Organ List > Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood > Flutes > > Hi Bart and friends, > > You wrote: > > > I removed the cap, I filled them all in nicely with wood filler, > >the kind that hardens quickly so you can sand it. I put them all > >back together and put them back in the chest. I turned on the organ > >and started playing them, I couldn't tell any difference! I was > >told I should lower the cutups by gluing a piece of cardboard or > >veneer over the existing cutup. > > I would say that is probably the problem. I believe Craig has had the > same problem as his flute cutups are considerably higher than mine. > My Gedackt is quite chiffy and it even has some light nicking. The > cutups are just above 1/4, around 2/7 I believe. > > My low bass pipes need to be cut up some though as the bass is a bit > weak at the low end. > > Eric > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Attempt to get listed From: "Donald H. Peterson" <dpetetx@airmail.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:57:52 -0700   I've tried to get my home E-Mail listed as well as at work.   NO LUCK!!!!   Don    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Bernard C. Nordmann" <bcnordmann@cdmnet.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:20:47 -0500   At 06:45 AM 6/26/00 -0600, Kelvin Smith wrote: > . . . and there is another wire going >to the blower room which powers coil in the starter motor to turn on the >blower.   Lest there be any confusion, DO NOT supply a steady signal from the = Artisan relay to your motor starter. That will defeat several of its features.   INSTEAD, arrange to supply a momentary contact closure in parallel with = the Start button. (You did put these near the motor didn't you?) In that way, as I mentioned in my previous eMail, if the power fails and comes back on when you are at the blower (in the words of the inimitable Al Sefl) "If = you are working around the blower and the cat hits the switch how many RPM = will you be going before you get thrown out?"   PLEASE PLEASE - Listen to us.   Regards to all,          
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Attempt to get listed From: "Bernard C. Nordmann" <bcnordmann@cdmnet.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:27:56 -0500   At 04:57 PM 7/17/00 -0700, you wrote: >I've tried to get my home E-Mail listed as well as at work.   Go to the web site for this List: http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/   The home page includes: "To subscribe please send an email to owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org with your full name and a brief reason why you wish to join the list. Also please specify =   if you want the individual posts or the digest version."   Perhaps a message to the above mail address stating what you'd like to do would bring some results.   Good luck, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - - - - - - - - - Bernie Nordmann, St. Louis, MO -- Owner of a 3/13 Wurlitzer/Barton/Kimball/Dennison/whatever -- Registered Piano Technician, Piano Technicians Guild -- Full time computer consultant - Nordmann Consulting, Inc. -- Amateur radio operator, call sign KV0W -- Husband, father - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - = - - - - - - - - -    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Kurt Schlieter" <kschliet@execpc.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:55:51 -0500   More importantly, you should have (and in most cases are required by law = to have) an electrical disconnect at the blower. This should be capable of = having a padlock installed to lock the disconnect in the "off" position. This disconnect should be used anytime the blower is serviced. A breaker is NOT = a disconnect.   Kurt     "Bernard C. Nordmann" wrote:   > At 06:45 AM 6/26/00 -0600, Kelvin Smith wrote: > > . . . and there is another wire going > >to the blower room which powers coil in the starter motor to turn on = the > >blower. > > Lest there be any confusion, DO NOT supply a steady signal from the = Artisan > relay to your motor starter. That will defeat several of its features. > > INSTEAD, arrange to supply a momentary contact closure in parallel with = the > Start button. (You did put these near the motor didn't you?) In that = way, > as I mentioned in my previous eMail, if the power fails and comes back = on > when you are at the blower (in the words of the inimitable Al Sefl) "If = you > are working around the blower and the cat hits the switch how many RPM = will > you be going before you get thrown out?" > > PLEASE PLEASE - Listen to us. > > Regards to all, > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:38 -0500   At 7/17/00 11:41 AM, Bart wrote:   >Over the weekend I started revoicing my wood flutes. My plan was to fill = in >the nicking and produce a more classical or baroque gedeckt sound with = more >chiff. I removed the cap, I filled them all in nicely with wood filler, = the >kind that hardens quickly so you can sand it. I put them all back = together >and put them back in the chest. I turned on the organ and started = playing >them, I couldn't tell any difference! I was told I should lower the = cutups >by gluing a piece of cardboard or veneer over the existing cutup. I will =   >need help for this so I can have someone to hear the pipe while I am >adjusting the cutup. Any other suggestions to arrive at the sound I = want?     Hello Bart, and everyone!   Bart, your (apparently unsuccessful) experiments with de-nicking your wood stopped flutes would seem to me to point out the fact that the art of voicing ANY given set of pipes involves MANY discrete factors. Nicking is but one of these, as you seem to have found out.   Another, as you are now suspecting, is the degree of cutup of the particular pipes. BUT -- this is again just *one* piece of the total picture. Yet a third is the width of the windways, and a fourth the = degree of toe-hole opening -- a fifth, the wind pressure the stop is going to now play on vs. what it formerly was voiced for. There are more.....<g>...the operative thing is that *ALL* of these factors work together to create a particular "sound" in any given rank of pipes.   All that being said, and as you asked for suggestions, I'll offer mine. Perhaps you won't want to hear it -- but I truly feel that it is the one that will offer the best possible solution to your dilemma. (AND -- none of this should be construed as a criticism of your desired goal in the ultimate sound of your pipes -- after all, it is *your* organ, and you = have every right to have it contain whatever sounds *you* desire.)   From what I hear in your posts, it occurs to me that you are trying to = make an old set of ("romantic"-ish?) pipes become something quite different = than that which they *want* to be. All the de-nicking/cardboard cutup-lowering/etc. etc. in the world won't really change that situation much (at least not in any sort of really presentable fashion). Yes, it is true that such things *have* been done before, (sorta)...but that does not change the fact that such "hatchet jobs" are seldom truly successful.   So, I suggest that you simply seek out another set of gedeckts -- one that was designed/scaled/voiced to be closer to that sound which you desire -- instead of investing countless hours of your time and effort to try to = make a typical old "stopped flute" into a baroque-ish "gedeckt" (all the while with a realistically rather slim chance of really obtaining that goal). They *are* out there (I think we have a set or two at the shop here, for that matter, though I do not have the authority to offer them to you) -- = if only you will search them out. Ultimately, I cannot help but to think = that the end result will be far more satisfactory to you in every respect.   I hope you take all this as intended -- as good-natured advice from one = who has seen first-hand too many examples of not-quite-satisfactory "baroque-izing" of vintage pipework. The sort of "fixes" which you have been describing have been done over and over again to countless churches and organs in the recent decades (starting about the '60's), and only now is the pendulum of taste in organs starting to swing back such that these "modernizations" are being seen for what they truly were (and in many = cases now being reversed, when still possible -- but that's another whole new = can of worms!!)   One way or the other, I wish you the very best in the progress of your instrument. I hope I haven't managed to discourage you from continuing towards your goals!   Most cordially,   Tim Bovard, technician Nichols and Simpson, Inc. Little Rock AR <www.nicholsandsimpson.com>    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:36:34 CDT   Hello, Eric, Craig, Tim and List,   I'm beginning to think that Tim may have a very valid point. That's why = two of the ranks of prinzipals are brand new pipes factory voiced for the kind =   of sound I want. But alas, the new pipes weren't cheap, and my credit = card is going to be run to the limit for a few years until I pay it back. = Money for a new rank of gedeckts is a long way off, and the hopes of finding one =   in the used market that will do what I want from the start is going to be like looking for a needle in a haystack, and may end up costing more than = I want to spend anyway.   If I had more money, my organ would have all new pipes and they would probably be voiced by experts like Craigs, and they'd probably be in a = great big music room in a brand new house built for acoustics. But, alas, for = now I'll have to settle for experimenting with the rank I do have.   With my prinzipals I'm told that the languid bevel was made at 70 degrees instead of the standard 58 degrees. The consultant who placed the pipe order told me that this helps to create the baroque sound out of them. So =   this brings me to my next set of questions:   What part of the pipe is the languid, and on wooden pipes could it be woodworked into a 70 degree bevel from what it is now? Would this give me =   more chiff? If the size of the windway makes a difference, would it be = made smaller (more wood filler) or larger (carving it out more) to get more chiff?   Thanks, Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL prinzipal8@hotmail.com http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:37:56 -0700   Tim Bovard wrote: > ... > Yet a third is the width of the windways, and a fourth the degree > of toe-hole opening -- a fifth, the wind pressure the stop is going to = now > play on vs. what it formerly was voiced for.     Some theory here that I keep forgetting to ask about: Doesn't adjusting the toe-hole opening effectively change the wind pressure? It seems one could use pipes voiced for low pressure on a high-pressure chest if the toe-hole is closed sufficiently.   Mac Hayes