DIYAPASON-L Digest #124 - Tuesday, July 18, 2000
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing WoodFlu	tes
  by "Carl and Halie Dodrill" <dodrill@accessone.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re:St. Pails
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
motor starter
  by "Jon" <sparky@chesco.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Encyclopedia of Organ Stops now on line!
  by <Ed_Stauff@avid.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  motor starter
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing WoodFlu tes From: "Carl and Halie Dodrill" <dodrill@accessone.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:09:49 -0700     ----- Original Message ----- From: Elders, Craig <c.elders@tcu.edu> To: 'Residence Organ List' <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing WoodFlu = tes     > Good day, Bart, Eric and all! > > I went through the same with my Gedeckt. I filled the nicks and sanded > everything very carefully. But not the sound that I thought I would = get. I > just knew with all my work, I would have some chiff or something. But = it > still sounded like a heavily nicked pipe. My cutups are a little high = and, > as stated, that is more than likely why they sound that way. I tried > lowering the cupup with cutout pipe-metal and did change things = somewhat, > but not a lot. As I mentioned last week, the 8' range of my pipes are just > too weak for what I want so I am going to replace my Gedeckt so I can = get > more "body". That is one reason that I have not played around to see = what I > could do to my Gedeckt. By the way, with what I have done, the upper > pipework, say 4' on up, is wonderful. A sound I would be very happy = with. > But, I just need more 8' "foundation". > > Everyone have a wonderful week! > > Craig Elders > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eric Sagmuller [SMTP:ess4@psu.edu] > > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:20 PM > > To: Residence Organ List > > Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Revoicing Wood > > Flutes > > > > Hi Bart and friends, > > > > You wrote: > > > > > I removed the cap, I filled them all in nicely with wood filler, > > >the kind that hardens quickly so you can sand it. I put them all > > >back together and put them back in the chest. I turned on the organ > > >and started playing them, I couldn't tell any difference! I was > > >told I should lower the cutups by gluing a piece of cardboard or > > >veneer over the existing cutup. > > > > I would say that is probably the problem. I believe Craig has had the > > same problem as his flute cutups are considerably higher than mine. > > My Gedackt is quite chiffy and it even has some light nicking. The > > cutups are just above 1/4, around 2/7 I believe. > > > > My low bass pipes need to be cut up some though as the bass is a bit > > weak at the low end. > > > > Eric > > > > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > > Residence Pipe Organs. > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:58:57 -0400   >More importantly, you should have (and in most cases are required by law = to >have) an electrical disconnect at the blower. This should be capable of = having >a padlock installed to lock the disconnect in the "off" position. This >disconnect should be used anytime the blower is serviced. A breaker is = NOT a >disconnect. >   I agree! My starter has such a switch incorporated into it. My blower starter is controlled remotely from the console via a simple on/off switch. If I need to work on the blower then I turn off the disconnect at the blower. That way there is no way the blower can be started up accidently. It also gives me a way to energize the blower, at the blower, if needed by leaving the organ switch on and using the disconnect switch to control it.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:48:54 EDT   Eric--- In my opinion, using a simple on-off switch at the console to control your =   motor starter is not the safest practice. A momentary "START" contact and a momentary "STOP" (or break) contact type switch should be = used with a starter. With the simple on-off switch at the console the blower would automatically re-start upon resumption of supply voltage at the disconnect, say, after a power failure or brownout, when it might not be =   desirable or wanted. A safer way for at blower testing would be to have another start-stop pushbutton switch station in parallel with the console =   switch at the blower location. Regards, ---Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:11:13 -0400   Roc,   This also sounds like a good idea as far as safety is concerned. I haven't played many pipe organs though, and I'm just wondering if it's common practice to have a start/stop switch on the console of a pipe organ? On the few I've played I don't think this was the case.   The only disadvantage I see to this is that when the organ is being played, if there is a small power glitch, then the organist would have to be aware to press the start button again or the organ will die out, rather than just resume normal operation on its own.   Just my thoughts and maybe a bit confused, Eric         >Eric--- >In my opinion, using a simple on-off switch at the console to control = your >motor starter is not the safest practice. A momentary "START" >contact and a momentary "STOP" (or break) contact type switch should be = used >with a starter. With the simple on-off switch at the console the blower >would automatically re-start upon resumption of supply voltage at the >disconnect, say, after a power failure or brownout, when it might not = be >desirable or wanted. A safer way for at blower testing would be to have >another start-stop pushbutton switch station in parallel with the = console >switch at the blower location. >Regards, >---Roc    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:24:43 EDT   Hello all, I took lessons at ST. Pails cathedral in Sandy Eggo and it has = an on/off button switch in the right hand corner and it is under lock and = key. I guess that is a momentary switch. If you turn the organ off by accident, = you are supposed to wait a few minuets before hitting the start button again. Off to work, have fun. Dennis  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:35:19 EDT   Hi Eric-- I think it is practice for a "tasteful" (non-industrial looking) = start-stop switch on the console. I have seen several types applied that do not look like they were controlling something industrial most just being a red and = a black pushbutton, with no legends on them, or in the earlier cases, a = black and a white pushbutton switch. In the cases where industrial looking pushbutton stations were used, they most often were put under the bottom keyboard, or in some other out of the way location. One of the main advantages to having the momentary contact switches is so that overloads (heaters tripping in motor starter) will shut the blower = down and keep it down till the cause is determined. If memory serves, there are =   National Electric Code stipulations and provisions having to do with = remote operated start-stop switches. Regards, ---Roc  
(back) Subject: Re:St. Pails From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:42:25 EDT   Hello again, that was ST. Paul's catherdal,spell check, I can't spell even =   with spell check.St. Paul's has a four manual Aeolian Skinner that was enlarged by Wicks. I won't say any thing about that, fun to play and great live room! Dennis  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:03:47 -0400   > >One of the main advantages to having the momentary contact switches is so >that overloads (heaters tripping in motor starter) will shut the blower = down >and keep it down till the cause is determined. If memory serves, there = are >National Electric Code stipulations and provisions having to do with = remote >operated start-stop switches. >Regards, >---Roc >   As far as overload goes there are manually reset overloads and automatic ones. I think this is where one of the code questions comes in. If the equipment is such that it would be dangerous to have it restart automatically then the manual reset mode must be used. I have mine set for the manual reset overload mode. This is totally unrelated to the starting switch. If my overload trips, I will first need to turn off the power switch on the organ and then go down to the basement and reset the starter overload. Then I can try to restart it. All the overload relays in starters I've used, require you to have the device turned off before it allows you to reset the overload. Maybe they aren't all this way.   You've got me curious now on the start/stop pushbuttons. I hope to see more pipe organs soon and I'll be sure to see what kind of switch they use.   Eric    
(back) Subject: motor starter From: "Jon" <sparky@chesco.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:06:10 -0400   My installation has a switch on the console for the blower. This trips a relay down by the blower, supplying power to it. There is a disconnect switch with a fuse mounted right on the Kinetic Can. Perfectly legal by codes?      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:07:59 EDT   Hi Eric-- I guess I am learning here,,,,I have never seen any overloads that were automatic in resetting, all of them that I am familiar with need to have = the reset button on the starter pushed after the eutectic material in the overload coil has hardened to the point it will hold the overload contacts =   closed after the trip. Interesting topic. ---Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:12:51 -0400   >If you turn the organ off by accident, you >are supposed to wait a few minuets before hitting the start button again.     >Dennis >   This may be a good reason to not have the organ restart after a power interruption. I've noticed this on my Spencer, that what happens is that as the blower winds down, if one tries to restart it, if the motor start winding hasn't kicked in yet, the motor has a very hard time getting the blower up to speed again on the run winding only. This of course only applies to single phase motors. Three phase motors have full starting torque no matter where you start the motor in its rated RPMs.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:20:24 -0400   >Hi Eric-- >I guess I am learning here,,,,I have never seen any overloads that were >automatic in resetting, all of them that I am familiar with need to have = the >reset button on the starter pushed after the eutectic material in the >overload coil has hardened to the point it will hold the overload = contacts >closed after the trip. >Interesting topic. >---Roc   I believe it's mainly the newer starters that have this feature, at least the Cutler Hammer and Square D ones do.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:34:41 EDT   Exactly so on the Spencer Orgoblo's with Century or other repulsion-start induction run motors. IF the incoming power is removed long enuf for the motor to get down in rpm's much below its rated speed,,,but not low enuf = to shift back to repulsion start mode, its gonna have a very hard time = getting back up to speed if at all,,,from my experience. And of course,,,in the = older days,,,,,single phase and repulsion start was "de rigeur" in outlying = areas away from cities. A good thing in their favor is that they are VERY easy starting "accross the line" without annoying light blinking and dimming to =   any extent on adequately wired circuits. ---Roc who likes repulsion-start motors UNTIL he has to get inside to play with necklaces and brushes,,,then he wants polyphase, lol.  
(back) Subject: Encyclopedia of Organ Stops now on line! From: <Ed_Stauff@avid.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:18:03 -0400       My on-line Encylopedia of Organ Stops is now available, though it is far from finished. The URL is:   http://www.mewsic.com/stops   I'm very interested in your feedback regarding overall organization, presentation, layout, and approach. I would like to take discussion of my Encyclopedia (as well as other discussions about organ stops) to a new discussion list: "OrganStops@egroups.com". List membership is open to all, but in order to post you must join first by going to the Egroups home page at "http://www.egroups.com". I expect traffic on the list to be light, and it *WILL* be kept on topic.   -- Ed   #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D# | Ed Stauff, principal software eng. | I don't speak | "Specialization | | Avid Technology, Tewksbury MA, USA | for Avid, nor | is for insects." | | "ed_stauff#@#avid.com" (remove #'s) | vice versa. | -- Lazarus Long | #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:35:56 -0400   >Exactly so on the Spencer Orgoblo's with Century or other repulsion-start >induction run motors.   Yes, I forgot to mention Repulsion start motors. They are a little before my time but I have worked with them a little. My Spencer has a GE Capacitor start motor.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] motor starter From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:39:50 -0400   Jon wrote:     >My installation has a switch on the console for the blower. This trips a >relay down by the blower, supplying power to it. There is a disconnect >switch with a fuse mounted right on the Kinetic Can. Perfectly legal by >codes? > >   Is the relay of the motor starter type which includes an overload relay? If not, don't depend on the fuse(s) alone to protect the motor.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: Revoicing Wood Flutes From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:55:12 -0500   At 7/17/00 07:36 PM, Bart wrote: <snip> >If I had more money, my organ would have all new pipes and they would >probably be voiced by experts like Craigs, and they'd probably be in a = great >big music room in a brand new house built for acoustics. But, alas, for = now >I'll have to settle for experimenting with the rank I do have. > >With my prinzipals I'm told that the languid bevel was made at 70 degrees =   >instead of the standard 58 degrees. The consultant who placed the pipe >order told me that this helps to create the baroque sound out of them. = So >this brings me to my next set of questions: > >What part of the pipe is the languid, and on wooden pipes could it be >woodworked into a 70 degree bevel from what it is now? Would this give = me >more chiff? If the size of the windway makes a difference, would it be = made >smaller (more wood filler) or larger (carving it out more) to get more >chiff?     Hello again, Bart!   I fear that you might have somewhat missed a point that I tried to make without actually saying it. Not that that would be overly difficult to do....<g>!   I'll try to take this in order of your post quoted above.   I certainly realize the costs involved in purchasing new pipework, and why this is often not an option for DIY-organbuilders (myself included!). Indeed, I am still collecting bits and pieces for my own instrument = (which, incidentally, reminds me that I've been meaning to mention to y'all how happy I've been recently to have: a) finally procured my own neat little 2m console and b) found a place to move myself to where I will have space to start to assemble it with the rest of all the stuff I've been collecting. YIPPEE!!!!).   ANYWAY...as you said (though not quoted here), it *is* probably more of a challenge to find a "newer, baroque-ish" stopped flute rank than it would be to find an "older, romantic-ish" set. It might even end up costing a bit more money to procure such a set as you desire. HOWEVER, I do not at all think it is an impossible challenge -- leastways not as much as for you to resign yourself to having to buy them new from a pipemaker. Start digging -- asking -- paying attention to ads and assorted sources for such used parts, and you *will* eventually find what you want. Don't forget = (as I mentioned last nite) that many old instruments that were "modernized" in the past 30-odd years are now being returned to their more-original configurations -- this in itself can often find "newer, baroque-ish" sets of pipes in "surplus" condition.   BARRING THAT, however, you go on to say that you feel left with little alternative but to experiment with the pipes you have. I won't attempt to argue this point (after all, experimentation is how we *all* learn things now, isn't it??) -- but I will offer an alternative from perhaps a = slightly different point-of-view.   Until you *do* find the set of pipes that fulfills your desires for their sound, how about giving the old pipes you have a chance to be what they already are...??   Is it not possible that there is *something* redeeming about them as they stand, even if not quite fitting into your ultimate "grand scheme of things"? Perhaps if you just accept them for their current character = (even if temporarily so), you might accidentally come to even *enjoy* something about them! One way or the other, they will fill the toeboard and make = the notes play until you find their replacements, I'd think. Just a thought......   And as to your other questions: the "languid" is the portion of a metal flue pipe that consists of the inner partition between the "toe" and the "body" of the pipe. Its leading edge forms the back side of the windway (which is where the bevel angle you mention is applied). This is for = metal flue pipes only.   In wooden pipes, there is no languid as such -- the function of this part of the pipe is served by the upper surface of the "block" which forms the lower portion of the pipe. Thus, wooden pipes have no "bevel-angle" to speak of whatsoever, as the windway is formed by recessing part of the front of the "block", or the inside of the "cap", or both. Sometimes, especially with old wood flutes, the upper surface of this block is also cut away within the pipe (just behind the windway) such that there is a cavity behind and below the windway. This is termed a "recessed block" = and is another one of those tricks I mentioned last nite whereby pipemakers = and voicers obtain certain tonality from any given set of pipes.   Again, as I said last night, I do not wish to discourage you in any way from seeking *your* goals for *your* instrument as *you* would see fit. I simply offer these observations in an attempt to provide alternatives for your consideration. Hopefully they will be of *some* value to you! = Please do keep us all informed of your progress in whatever direction it should proceed!   Most cordially,   Tim Bovard, technician Nichols and Simpson, Inc. Little Rock AR