DIYAPASON-L Digest #94 - Thursday, May 18, 2000
 
Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re:  [Residence Organs]  Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing
  by <DBnMOPS@aol.com>
Re:  [Residence Organs]  Spencer blower butterfly valve not  sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Re: butterfly part II
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Valves of any kind not sealing
  by "arpncorn" <arpncorn@davesworld.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: butterfly valve not sealing
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re:Reuter Regulators,,,was butterfly valves not s
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:02:47 -0400   Hello Friends,   Well I finally got the Spencer all connected up and plumbed up to the second floor chamber.   It was very thrilling to hear the blower fire up and see the static reservoir rise. It rose to where the butterfly valve was closed and the pressure should have been regulating, but then the reservoir slowly kept on rising till it hit the stops I fortunately installed just before, keeping the lid from tearing off the top.   Anyway I moved the weight on the valve arm clear out to the end but the valve still doesn't seal well enough to regulate the pressure. If I press down on the arm, sealing the valve tighter, the reservoir will drop and go into regulation. It appears I will need to remove the valve and replace the sealing surface inside. It appears to be lined with some type of a thick blanket felt or such. Now my question is, has anyone ever replaced this lining and what material should I use? I checked the Spencer online manual but it doesn't appear to say anything about how to reline the valve.   Any thoughts will be much appreciated. Otherwise the rest of the system seems to work wonderfully. I used spiral pipe, Hard Cast, and made MDF wind ducts to interface to the static reservoir and in the chamber. BTW I made my windsleeve between the blower and the valve from .060 packing leather and glued the seam with fish glue. It seems to work beautifully and the fish glue really seems to hold well. The only disadvantage to the glue I saw was the long drying time to fully harden. Someday I'll have to get some hide glue.   Thanks,   Eric  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:34:36 EDT   The first time you hit the switch and the and the blower comes to life and =   the regulators do there thing it is sort of exciting. Usually you use a rubber cloth blower bag, and the seem is sewn together, that sounds odd but it works. Fish glue is really easy to use in that if you need a lot of working time = you use more and less for less time. I do not use hot glue in some parts of = the organ because I don't feel like there is time enough before it sets up. I = am to slow at some things. Besides fish glue smell's less then the glue pot,sseeeeeewwwwww I am allowed to glue pouches in the house while = listening to the TV. Have a good day all. Dennis  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing From: <DBnMOPS@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:33:44 EDT     In a message dated 5/18/0 10:01:24 AM, you wrote:   <<Any thoughts will be much appreciated. Otherwise the rest of the system seems to work wonderfully. >>   Eric, Is the output of the regulator just sealed off, for now, or is it supplying the organ chests?? None of those valves are ever 100 percent efficient, so they would rely on the inevitable minor leakage in all your chests and pipe valves to "use up" the small amount of wind that leaks = thru. If you just have the output sealed off tight, you no doubt WILL get the effect you describe. Try bleeding off some air at the output, rather than = a complete seal, and I think it might shape up. Now, if you're already = feeding all the wind system of the organ, then you may need to improve that valve-seal. Good luck, Doug  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:55:25 -0400   Doug,   The other end of the duct at this point has a drywall bucket sitting on it with some weights on it. There is a fair amount of air leaking from around the bucket as it is making a fair amount of hissing sound in the chamber.   I know what you mean about the valve not sealing 100%. When I looked at the valve in the housing before I installed it I thought too that it wasn't designed to seal 100%. The sealing material looked to be in good shape though. Apparently though it isn't sealing well enough as the leakage I'm getting now is much more than I would expect once everything is connected.   Thanks, Eric     > >Eric, > Is the output of the regulator just sealed off, for now, or is it >supplying the organ chests?? None of those valves are ever 100 percent >efficient, so they would rely on the inevitable minor leakage in all your >chests and pipe valves to "use up" the small amount of wind that leaks = thru. >If you just have the output sealed off tight, you no doubt WILL get the >effect you describe. Try bleeding off some air at the output, rather = than a >complete seal, and I think it might shape up. Now, if you're already = feeding >all the wind system of the organ, then you may need to improve that >valve-seal. > Good luck, > Doug    
(back) Subject: Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:04:27 EDT   Greetings Eric:   Your butterfly valve is operating as it was designed to do. They are not able to close 100% of the wind off so some leakage always goes past. A = well designed static reservoir always has a blowoff valve to keep it from = reaching full height. This has the added advantage that if the linkage to the butterfly valve were to fail then the reservoir would not explode. Your reservoir stops were a good idea also. Once you have all of the organ connected there should be enough leakage to offset the valve leakage; if = not, you may add a bleed to the system.   In most modern electrically blown organs the static reservoir actually becomes a static regulator with valves of its own.   Best of luck with the project,   Al Sefl  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:40:45 -0400   >Thanks for the infomation Al.   You also wrote:   >In most modern electrically blown organs the static reservoir actually >becomes a static regulator with valves of its own. >   This reservoir had an external curtain valve connected to it. I decided against using it, as Spencer cautioned the open area of the valve was just too small to handle the full blower volume, although the reservoir is of a decent size. I basically have this connected up as is shown in the Spencer manual cut. no. 3462. The only difference is that my reservoir is just above the blower rather than a floor up with a cable coming down through the floor to connect to the Spencer valve. As the blower is neatly sitting under the reservoir, it would be difficult now to change to a curtain valve without rearranging things. My chest regulators will of course use curtain valves.   The interesting thing I noticed in the Spencer manual is that in another cut, they show a "blower room reservoir" turned on its side and no external valve connected to it. If it has an internal valve, I wonder what type, or if it even has one?   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:54:44 -0400   Eric asked about "blower room reservoirs" mounted on their sides with no (obvious) external valve. I've seen at least one E.M.Skinner instrument with such a reservoir -- it was actually a regulator, having a large cone valve inside that shut off the blower-supplied wind when the "top" reached =   its maximum "up" position.   Without having specific details, I must say that I think I would have used =   the reservoir's built-in curtain valve, or at least provided for its possible use, rather than depending upon the Spencer in-line butterfly valve. At the same time, I'll admit to once having used a Spencer blower without the butterfly and without the (one and only) reservoir having = *any* valve at all! The reservoir top was weighted to "float" on the static pressure, which was reduced to a comfortable 3-1/2" by the simple = expedient of removing one of the blower's two fans! This was crude but was also fairly effective, and it had the "advantage" of discouraging anyone from holding a full-organ chord for very long! (The organist could see the reservoir top and so could time the chord's release to happen _just_ = before the reservoir bottomed out!) The six ranks of pipes were wind-efficient enough that they could normally "float" on the blower's (reduced) static pressure. This is not a good approach!   Larry Chace  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:06:47 -0400   Larry,   Again the problem is that the (external) curtain valve is too small to handle the full blower output flow. I do have a couple of Moller reservoirs that have built in curtain valves, where the air goes in to the middle division and then is regulated through two curtain valves, one to each end of the reservoir. These may have enough valve "open" area to handle the full flow. The regulators themselves are only sized for 6 stops and 8 stops respectively. The blower can easily drive 20 stops on 3" wind. So I have to wonder.   I also thought the higher mass of the valve would be fine for the "Static" reservoir. Spencer appears to show it used on a chest regulator. I don't think I would attempt this but I don't think the slower, smoother response on the "Static" should be a problem.   Thanks, Eric   You wrote:   >Hi, Eric. I *think* I'd suggest the use of the reservoir's curtain >valve, even if that means rearranging things that you've already got >installed. > >Those butterfly valves seem to have been introduced as an >"el-cheapo", perhaps for retro-fitting Spencer blowers to organs >that had been hand-pumped, and which therefore did not have a >curtain valve on the main reservoir. > >The have much more mass than does the curtain valve, and so I'd >wonder if they were able to respond quickly enough. On the other >hand, since you are using the butterfly to control the "static >reservoir", perhaps quick response is not a critical item. > >Larry    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:27:16 -0400   Hi, Eric. An enlarged external curtain valve might be a possibility. Do you have a chart or other data that shows the capacity of a curtain valve? I know that different makers use different approaches to constructing the "grid" against which the curtain valve closes. Some (hardware cloth) provide for quite a large airflow, whereas others (lots = of holes drilled into a plank) are more restrictive.   Larry  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:42:50 -0400   Al,   You wrote:   > Once you have all of the organ >connected there should be enough leakage to offset the valve leakage; if = not, >you may add a bleed to the system. >   Should the bleed be triggered by increased system pressure or excessive reservoir top height?   I other words my Static is running around 4 1/2 ". Once the valve is closed the pressure rises above that, but also the top of the reservoir rises above where it should.   Thanks, Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:47:24 EDT   Eric-- I am wondering where you are measuring your static pressure, and what the stated static is on the Spencer blower plate? Thanks,,,,,I am very interested in this thread. ---Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:54:34 -0400   Hi Larry,   You wrote:   > Do you have a chart or other data that shows the capacity of a >curtain valve?     No I don't. But going by the Spencer manual, I know that the valve open area should be close to the size of the blower outlet. I'm sure one could calculate easily the open area of screen mesh or whatever one would use.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:07:30 -0400   Roc:   You wrote:   >Eric-- >I am wondering where you are measuring your static pressure, and what the >stated static is on the Spencer blower plate?   The pressure can be measured anywhere in the system. At the reservoir or at the duct somewhere. I haven't actually measured my Static pressure "yet" but from the spring tension and knowing the organ it came from my estimate should be fairly close. Once I actually check the pressure once I get it regulating properly, if necessary I'll adjust it to about 41/2 as that is where I want it. My chest regulators will be running at 3" and I've heard it's good to run the Static 50% higher.   My blower is rated at 5" although I've been told that with the Spencer's that is a working pressure, not static. I haven't actually measured the static right at the blower.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Spencer blower butterfly valve not sealing From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:08:54 -0700   Pipewheezr@aol.com wrote: > ... Besides fish glue smell's less then the glue pot...   What? You don't like the smell of warm hide glue? That's one of my favorite smells, along with fresh-sawn sugar pine.   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: Re: butterfly part II From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:15:41 EDT   > Al, You wrote: >> Once you have all of the organ >>connected there should be enough leakage to offset the valve leakage; if =   not, >>you may add a bleed to the system. > Should the bleed be triggered by increased system pressure or > excessive reservoir top height? > I other words my Static is running around 4 1/2 ". Once the valve is > closed the pressure rises above that, but also the top of the > reservoir rises above where it should. > Thanks, > Eric >> Hello again Eric:   When I am building a static regulator or a reservoir for a client I use = the simple formula of Length x Width x (inches WP desired/27.68) to find the total spring tension value that would give equilibrium. So if you have a = 20 x 30 inch top that would give you 600 square inches; and, for a desirable Wind Pressure of 4.5 inches divided by 1 Pound Per Square Inch of = 27.68"WP, you would have a total of 97 pounds at equilibrium. Now this figure is = not exact due to variations in springs and the geometry of the ribs = interacting; but, it will get you into the ballpark for selecting your springs. I = would start with 4 - 20 pound tension springs and know that these would start to =   draw more and more tension as they opened so getting to my ballpark = estimate of 97 pounds could not be too far off.   Now on to a safety blow-off. Standard organ building procedure usually = has a spring-held flat pallet valve inside the reservoir or regulator such that = it is opened to the outside air with a twill cloth pull when a certain span = has been reached. The center of a section of twill is held down inside the reservoir/regulator with a woodscrew and a wooden finger on the opposite inside surface. The twill cloth is brought through a hole in the pallet = of the flap valve and the hole is plugged with a tapered-end dowel. The = dowel has a crosswise hole in the top cylindrical section for the two ends of = the twill to go through and where the twill may be tied to prevent loosening. =   There are other variations but the mechanism remains one that opens a = valve at a certain height of rise.   I must stop here and strongly urge that the use of reservoir and regulator =   terms be specific. Too often I see them used interchangeably. A = reservoir has no valves and does nothing to keep wind pressure at a constant value. = It may hold wind until a large draw is called for and it may take in wind = when the organ is not playing but it does little to actually keep the wind pressure at one value. On the other hand, a regulator is used to deliver = one pressure of wind across a wide range of wind draw needs. It has a valve = or valves that close when the rise goes up and open at the fall. Both may be = in the form of a book pneumatic, swimmer, etcetera.   Organ builders do not like bleeds but they are found on some instruments = with reservoirs. They would normally take the form of a pallet on the outside = of a reservoir or wind trunk. The pallet is placed over a hole and hinged = with leather on one end as is usual. The opposite end is held in place with a rod, spring, and leather nut. If the hole is square, say 1" x 2", and you =   want to have the wind to bleed at 4 inches then you would need a .25 pound =   spring or about 4 ounce pressure. Start with a 3 ounce spring which will compress to hold down the pallet until you get to about 4 ounces. Again, this is not a really good practice and you will probably need to build a muffler box around your "controlled" leak!   I hope this helps and that I have not given my usual vague descriptive. = My power pneumatics for a pedal offset are cooled now and may be reinstalled = so I have to get back to work.   Best wishes,   Al Sefl An advocate of using only HOT GLUE!  
(back) Subject: Valves of any kind not sealing From: "arpncorn" <arpncorn@davesworld.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 20:44:08 -0500   On Thu, 18 May 2000 14:42:50 -0400 Eric Sagmuller <ess4@psu.edu> wrote to = the "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org>   > I(sic -I presume you meant: In) other words my Static is running > = around > 4 1/2 ". Once the valve is closed the pressure rises above > that, but also the top of the reservoir rises above where it should.   Then that means that the valve is not sealing correctly; a basic = pre-requisite to proper operation of a wind system.   If the Curtain Valve material is Rubber-Cloth, I would suggest replacing = it with new material. Unfortunately, Rubber cloth deteriorates with time = and becomes porous. It's one of those products that is kind of like = getting good pneumatic leather: it's hard to do.   GHP Associates out east is a source of very good valve leather, and he may = be willing to either sell a small piece, or re-cover the Curtain Valve for = you.   Good luck!   Faithfully,   Arp   (who thought the World was going to end with the storms that raked through = here awhile ago!)    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: butterfly valve not sealing From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 22:25:20 -0500   The curtain valves on the Reuter at St. Francis in Paducah matted against window screen.   The static pressure is 5", the curtain valve is about 20" wide and unfolds to about 10"- rolled on an iron pipe inside the box.   Internal coil springs hold the reservoir top down. No release safety valve is used.   Rick      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re:Reuter Regulators,,,was butterfly valves not seating From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 00:19:00 EDT   Hi Rick-- Interesting observation on the Reuter you rebuilt in Paducah. I can't say =   that I have seen curtain valves matted onto window screen in my career. = LOTS of "chicken wire" tho. <G> I read not too long ago that one could assume with average window screen that half of the dimensions of whatever size--- =   could be considered as solid,-- that is occupied by wire itself. If this = is actually true,,,then the curtain opening in the Reuter regulator would be about 10 X 5 inches. How many regulators involved for how many ranks? Cheers, ---Roc