DIYAPASON-L Digest #180 - Monday, November 6, 2000
 
Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for every purpose under heaven?
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose  
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for  everypurpose 
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose  
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for  everypurpose 
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: A flute for every purpose  under heaven?
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for  everypurpose  under heaven?
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  A flute ...celestes
  by "Ron Rarick" <ronrarick@mindspring.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:51:28 CST   Dear Brian and List:   I would tune the softer stop (Stopped Diapason) as a celeste. If you = intend to use it all by itself you will not be able to tell it is off tune. You won't be able to use it in combination with ranks other than the one it is =   made to be a celeste for, because it will be out of tune with those ranks = as well, only the effect will not be as good. However, it is the softest = stop on the organ so it would be a good choice for a celeste rank that could still be used with other ranks to some degree. Some organs have the knob for the celeste rank tied in with the knob for the rank for which it is a celeste so that when you pull the knob for the celeste the main rank comes =   on as well. (In other words you cannot pull the celeste without also pulling the rank for which it is a celeste. Hope I didn't confuse you too =   much.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.   Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:28:40 -0600   Bart Kleineweber wrote: > > Dear Brian and List: > > I would tune the softer stop (Stopped Diapason) as a celeste.... Tonally, celestes should never be built with stopped pipes, except when a very particular type of sound is desired. Flute celestes should be built on open pipes: Melodia, Flauto Dolce, Clarabella, Hohlfl=F6te, etc. How loud they are depends on the nature of the pipes used. Since it is your organ, and you are at home, and have to please no one else, you can do whatever pleases you, ...or whatever you can afford, ....or whatever fits. I have an idea that we may actually put into a church organ. We are building a combination pipe and digital organ. We have a Salicional 8 rank that we may incorporate in the Great Division just to give it what I am going to call a Grand Chorus. This will not be a celesting stop as we know it. However, we will lean on the tuning of each Salicional pipe so it is just enough sharp that it creates a lovely chorus effect when played with the Great accompanimental ensemble without being out of tune. Know of anything like that being used before? Just thought I would throw in this bit of tonal design experience. F. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:15:34 -0500   Richard Burt wrote:     > >Tonally, celestes should never be built with stopped pipes, except when >a very particular type of sound is desired. Flute celestes should be >built on open pipes: Melodia, Flauto Dolce, Clarabella, Hohlfl=F6te, etc. >   How about a Rhor flute? I would call this a partially stopped flute.=20 I'm almost sure the Allen I had had a celeste with its Rhor flute.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 13:27:44 -0600   Eric Sagmuller wrote: > > Richard Burt wrote: > > > > >Tonally, celestes should never be built with stopped pipes, except when > >a very particular type of sound is desired. Flute celestes should be > >built on open pipes: Melodia, Flauto Dolce, Clarabella, Hohlfl=F6te, = etc. > > > > How about a Rhor flute? I would call this a partially stopped flute. > I'm almost sure the Allen I had had a celeste with its Rhor flute. Yes, they may have one. However, it is still poor tonal design. By the way, some of the Johannus organs also use the rohrfl=F6te with an open = flute rank to make a celeste, and (to my ears) it sounds weird. If I were in charge of their tonal design, I would change it. In the electronic organ, =   an open flute costs no more than a stopped flute. If you use a Gedeckt, Stopped Diapason, Bourdon, or Rohrfl=F6te, don't use a celeste. If you = need a celeste, change the flute to an open sound. Rather simple if you think about it. F. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:00:31 -0500   I will probably be using a String with celeste although I think I might like a Gemshorn with celeste better. They are much more expensive though and harder to find.     Eric  
(back) Subject: Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:16:34 -0500   The discussion about unusual Celestes has been interesting. One example = of a stopped Celeste is the Quintadena Celeste used on a few (four?) original Wurlitzer theatre organs and replicated on rather more than that in modern theatre organs.   Aren't there some Skinners that have (or had!) a Cor de Nuit Celeste in = the Echo division? His opus 357 (Robert Law residence) had a Chimney Flute Celeste in its Echo.   (All of those probably qualify as "particular type of sound"!)   On some of their residence organs, Estey provided an Unda Maris to go with the Melodia (or Clarabella as they also called it, perhaps "officially" incorrectly!). This was in addition to a Stopped Diapason and a Gross Flute (just in case anyone was worried about having too *few* wooden flutes!). Of course, they would also have at least one (and probably = more) String celestes and possibly a Gemshorn Celeste as well.   Regarding chorus effects, the Horn Diapason Celeste we heard this past weekend at the Shanklin Conference Center in Groton, Massachusetts, undulates so slowly that it is more of a "chorus" effect, and a luscious one at that. I'd guess the celesting rate is about 1Hz or maybe a little less in the middle of the manual. The true wonder, of coures, is the 16' Solo String Celeste, undulating all the way down to 16' CCC. Sumptuous!   On my residence organ, I'm hoping to use a Haskelled Salicional bass on = two pressures (via dual valves and regulator slides per pipe). On the lower pressure, it would serve as the bass to an 8' Dulciana and on the (slightly) higher it would serve as the bass to the 8' String Celeste. My hope is that the change in pitch would be "ok" along with the increased brightness. We'll see if that idea really flies or not.   Larry Chace      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:29:31 -0600   At 11/6/00 02:15 PM, Eric quoted F. Richard, and added:   >> >>Tonally, celestes should never be built with stopped pipes, except when >>a very particular type of sound is desired. Flute celestes should be >>built on open pipes: Melodia, Flauto Dolce, Clarabella, Hohlfl=F6te, etc. >> > >How about a Rhor flute? I would call this a partially stopped flute.=20 >I'm almost sure the Allen I had had a celeste with its Rhor flute. > >Eric     Hi, Eric!   The reason that Richard cautions against 'stopped flute celestes' is because of differences in the harmonic overtone series of stopped flutes vs. open ones. Aurally, stopped celestes do indeed tend to sound just a bit 'off' (of the average, that is -- as Larry points out, there is occasionally reason for doing it anyway, when this sort of sound is desired). The harmonic series of any stopped pipe (or 'partially-stopped' one) is quite different than that of an open pipe -- this is a function of the physics of organ pipes in general, and results in the odd "sound". The harmonic series of a stopped pipe eliminates (by its construction and physics of operation) certain overtones that are necessary for a "usual" celeste effect.=20   Basically, in order for a celeste-tuned rank to sound its best, the rank should be constructed in a very similar fashion to that rank with which it is to celeste. Minor differences in scale are common (the celeste rank is often a note or two smaller) but pipe construction should be the same -- such that the harmonic series of the 2 ranks is similar.   As to your reference to a Rohrflute Celeste on an Allen...well, we all know that toaster manufacturers don't "play by the same rules" that Pipe Organ builders do...(and all the stops on those things tend to sound the same anyway, at least after a few years). For that matter, in a toaster, the sounds of the various stops usually all come from a very limited number of generators -- a flute is a flute is a flute is a flute...detuned or not. I recall an Allen that I used to practice upon...it had a couple tabs labeled simply "celeste tuning" -- which would de-tune *any* other stop which it was used with. "Tuba Celeste", anyone??? How 'bout "Tierce Celeste"...???? <lol>=20   Am I alone in guessing that that fact is part of the reason why all of us belong to this List (as folks who desire their own *real* organs) instead of settling for the plug-in substitute (which we could all *easily* obtain, without all the bother of building our own real organs)...?   Despite the slight "editorial"...<G>...I hope this helps explain things!   CHEERS!   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR         =20   =20   =20      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] A flute ...celestes From: "Ron Rarick" <ronrarick@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:35:14 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart Kleineweber <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> > I would tune the softer stop ... as a celeste. If you intend > to use it all by itself you will not be able to tell it is off tune"   I would tend to disagree with this. It's been a long time since my stint in the pipe organ business, but it seems to me that the process of tuning a celeste, which means deciding how fast you want the beats between each celeste pipe and its parent rank pipe, and the fact that = aesthetically the beat rate should increase as you go up the scale, means that the celeste rank may not be and probably will not be in tune with itself. I admit it has been years since I tuned a celeste. Anyone out there tuned a celeste on itself? If so were the celesting characteristics fairly = good? Rather off? Horrific? What are the physics/numbers of this?   Ron Rarick Muncie Indiana