DIYAPASON-L Digest #181 - Tuesday, November 7, 2000
 
1) thanks for the flute comments 2) stoplist
  by "Brian  Graham" <briangraham@sunflower.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for   everypurpose  un
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven?
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs] A flute ...celestes
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven?
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for   everypurpose
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven?
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for  every pur
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for every  pur
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
A flute for every  purpose under heaven?
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
 

(back) Subject: 1) thanks for the flute comments 2) stoplist From: "Brian Graham" <briangraham@sunflower.com> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 02:05:51 -0000   Thanks for all of the interesting replies to the flute celeste question!   Larry Chace asked for a full stop list, so here goes: (If I've posted this before, sorry for the redundancy.)   When the whole shebang is operational , the stops will be   Pedal 16's: 16 Open Wood 16 Bourdon 16 Bass Viol   Main chamber (presently more or less operational) Manual stops (duplex): 8 Open Diapason 8 Gross Flute 8 Melodia 8 Stopped Diapason 8 Saxaphone (labial) 8 Oboe (labial) 4 Flauto Traverso 4' (wood, harmonic)     Echo chamber (future project) Manual stops: 8 Viol d'Orchestre 8 Viol Celeste 8 Viol d'Amour 8 Mute Viol (labeled Dulciana on the pipes) 8 Gemshorn 8 Gemshorn Celeste 8 Clarinet (labial) 8 Vox Humana (lingual!)   Estey Concert Harp (metal bars w/ LARGE stopped wooden resonators)   Chimes   So, as you can see, I'll eventually have 2 to 3 pairs of string celestes, but it will be a while.   I guess I could acquire another Gross Flute and have a Grrrrrross Celeste!!   -Brian ;)   PS I've heard one of the Estey Clarabella/UndaMaris combinations that Mr. Chace mentioned. It's like butter.    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose under heaven? From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:24:01 -0500   Tim Bovard wrote:   >As to your reference to a Rohrflute Celeste on an Allen...well, we all = know >that toaster manufacturers don't "play by the same rules" that Pipe Organ >builders do...(and all the stops on those things tend to sound the same >anyway, at least after a few years).   >Am I alone in guessing that that fact is part of the reason why all of us >belong to this List (as folks who desire their own *real* organs) instead >of settling for the plug-in substitute (which we could all *easily* = obtain, >without all the bother of building our own real organs)...?   Yes, I can't fully express how glad I am to have a "Real" organ now! The Allen I had was a 1996 model, but the first day at home with it was a disappointment. More than ever now that I've got the real thing, the electronic gismos just bore me to play them. All the work and loss of space is well worth it! Happy organ building to you all!   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 09:19:31 CST   Dear Larry and List: Larry Chase wrote: >Of course, they would also have at least one (and probably more) >String celestes and possibly a Gemshorn Celeste as well. > I thought that a Gemshorn was a string. What classification is it if it = is not a string?   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.   Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] A flute ...celestes From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 09:26:35 CST   Dear Ron and List:   >From: Bart Kleineweber <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> > > I would tune the softer stop ... as a celeste. If you intend > > to use it all by itself you will not be able to tell it is off tune" > To which Ron replied: >I would tend to disagree with this. It's been a long time since my stint >in the pipe organ business, but it seems to me that the process of tuning >a celeste, which means deciding how fast you want the beats between >each celeste pipe and its parent rank pipe, and the fact that = aesthetically >the beat rate should increase as you go up the scale, means that the >celeste rank may not be and probably will not be in tune with itself.   Ron is absolutely right. I forgot to take into consideration the varying beat rate as you go up the scale. The octaves would not be in tune with each other for this very reason.   So I guess the originator can only tune this rank as a celeste if he = intends to scrap any other use for the rank. Personally, I feel that one needs a nice gedeckt or stopped diapason rank on any organ more than two or three ranks. One will need a nice soft stop once in a while.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com   _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.   Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:15:07 -0500   Bart asked about Gemshorns. A Gemshorn is what its maker decided it = should be! That is, it can vary from quite flute-ish to somewhat diapason-ish to =   quite stringy-ish. You can't tell until you hear the pipes (unless you know that a particular builder's Gemshorn at a particular time was usually =   of a particular style).   (You'll have no problem distinguishing an Estey Gemshorn from a Flentrop Gemshorn!)   Regarding tuning of the celestes, remember that you can vary the = undulatory rate somewhat throughout the compass. That would tend to remove some of the out-of-tuneness that you'd get from playing a constant-rate celeste = all by itself.   At one point, I was trying to come up with a design for a teeny "theatre-ish" instrument of about 5 ranks. I included a Dulciana and bemoaned the lack of a celeste for the string. Allen Miller suggested = that I tune the Dulciana as a very mild celeste (to the string) in the middle octave and tune it true at the top and bottom. He said "try it -- it = looks funny, but it will work".   On Estey's of the vintage we are discussing, the stopped wooden pipes are tuned with normal stoppers, and they can be adjusted back and forth (flat and sharp) without difficulty or damage. The open wooden pipes typically have wooden tuning sliders fitted very tightly into slots milled into the sides of the "tuning slot". Moving those sliders can be a difficult process if they've swelled (not even a *great* amount), and so it is actually more difficult to experiment with celesting Estey *open* wooden = pipes!   Larry Chace   (p.s. It looks like each time we reply, the e-mailing list software adds a =   "Re: [Residence Organs]" thingy, resulting in quite long subject fields. Is this a bug or is it a feature?!? I usually try to remember to =   remove the extraneous ones.)    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] A flute for everypurpose un... From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:31:57 EST     --part1_97.cc15284.2739887d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Electric toaster, I always called my Allen a buzz box, slang for = transformer arc welders. There is no substitute for pipes, the room though has a lot to do with it. = My room here is not that big but no padding is present, except what you have = on you. The Allen organ(buz box) I had for 4 years didn't sound bad in the = music new room, ounce it was built. But the sounds of the real thing coming to = life after hitting the blower switch are hard to beat. The space taken up is = part of the game but standing in a museum and hearing the museum is a great experience. Now the news,the pedal Borden chest is nearing completion and it is = getting dry for the sheeeeellaaacking so I am trying to get many parts ready to = spray.   Have fun Dennis   --part1_97.cc15284.2739887d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2>Electric toaster, I always called my Allen a buzz = box, slang for transformer <BR>arc welders. <BR>There is no substitute for pipes, the room though has a lot to do with = it. My <BR>room here is not that big but no padding is present, except = what you have on <BR>you. The Allen organ(buz box) I had for 4 years = didn't sound bad in the music <BR>new room, ounce it was built. But the = sounds of the real thing coming to life <BR>after hitting the blower = switch are hard to beat. The space taken up is part <BR>of the game but = standing in a museum and hearing the museum is a great <BR>experience. <BR>Now the news,the pedal Borden chest is nearing completion and it is = getting <BR>dry for the sheeeeellaaacking so I am trying to get many parts = ready to spray. <BR> <BR>Have fun <BR>Dennis</FONT></HTML>   --part1_97.cc15284.2739887d_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:38:29 -0500   Yuck! Two typos snuck (!) into my previous note.   1. Regarding a Dulciana tunes a a semi-celeste, Allen Miller suggested = that I celeste it in the middle *octaves* (not "octave").   2. "On Estey's of the vintage..." should of coures be "On Esteys of the vintage...".   The Stopped Diapason as the "soft stop" is an unusual arrangement, = perhaps, but those Estey residence organs were somewhat unusual. Normal rules = might not apply!   Larry    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:15:40 -0800   At 09:19 11/07/2000 CST, Bart Kleineweber wrote: >I thought that a Gemshorn was a string. What classification is it if it = is >not a string?     I thought it was a foundation, like a mild diapason, similar in use to a Dulciana, but louder. Is that right?     Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Re: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:00:36 -0600   Bob Loesch wrote: > > At 09:19 11/07/2000 CST, Bart Kleineweber wrote: > >I thought that a Gemshorn was a string. What classification is it if > >it is not a string? > > I thought it was a foundation, like a mild diapason, similar in use to a > Dulciana, but louder. Is that right? Both of you are right. It is technically a hybrid. The exact nature of = the tone is determined by the voicer. I tuned a tapered Nazard last week. In this organ, it was rather a rather =   flutey foundation (organ) tone. Part of the problem is the way we cling to traditional descriptions. = Organ tone and foundation tone are the same, yet have two noun descriptives. It =   is that round, open, charactereistic tone that prevails only in a pipe organ. No other instrument in the world creates "organ" tone, or = foundaiton tone. Depending on where it occurs in the various stops of organ tone, it will be more or less harmonicly developed, depending on the touch of the = voicer. String tone is of course developed with a lot of rich harmonics in the = upper partials, but not to the total neglect of the fundamental. So one class of hybrids develop a tone that is between organ tone = (foundation) and string tone. A "foundational" gemshorn will ususally fall into this class. Hybrid tone is not limited to string and organ tone. They also can be = found in well developed examples between organ tone and flute tone. So, just to =   say that this or that stop is a hybrid may still leave you wondering what = it might sound like. To illustrate the point, I was asked to describe a Klarabel last week. I said that it was an organ tone that lies very close to becoming an open flute. This week I picked up an open flute that was almost a principal. If I were to use this open flute in an organ and called it a Klarabel (German spelling, I think) or a Clarabella (Italian = spelling, possibly) I probably could get away with it. It is a softer, beautiful sound that would not come from any source other than a pipe organ. I am rather fond of this Klarabel and will probably spend more time with it as my ideas develop. Well, ....that's a long way from describing a gemshorn, but the path was taken to illustrate that the actual tone developed is the result of the voicer's touch. F. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com  
(back) Subject: A flute for every purpose under heaven? From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:33:02 -0800   Thanks, Mr. Burt, for a very clear explanation! I used to play a Moller organ with a pair of beautiful Gemshorns which sounded like a mild 'diapason celeste', for want of a better term. Most of the examples I've heard in other organs sounded more like strings.   At 19:00 11/07/2000 -0600, F. Richard Burt wrote: [a detailed description of 'foundation' vs. 'string' tone]       Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com