DIYAPASON-L Digest #151F - Wednesday, September 27, 2000
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  lenght vs volume
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Pyramidon in MTS organ specs
  by <mts@intergrafix.net>
RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by <Ed_Stauff@avid.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  lenght vs volume
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
[Residence Organs]  RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Pyramidon in MTS organ specs
  by "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com>
Compton's Cube and other tricks...................
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Compton's Cube and other  tricks.................
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
RE: [Residence Organs]  How is your project going?
  by "Tom Ed Moore" <TMoore@unanov.una.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Compton's Cube and other  tricks.................
  by "wurlic1" <wurlic1@lara.on.ca>
residence organ
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  residence organ
  by "Mike McDonald" <pipeorganman@localaccess.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  residence organ
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] lenght vs volume From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:32:27 -0500   At 9/26/00 06:34 PM, Mac wrote: >The Stevens Irwin "Directory of Pipe Organ Stops" has comparative >drawings of pipes claiming that squat, short pipes can have the same >pitch as long, skinny pipes. I believe Irwin borrowed his drawings from >Audsley.   and then a bit later, he wrote:   >- it seems obvious from that comparison/ explanation that pitch is based >on internal volume of the pipe rather than just the length of the pipe.   Mac, and everyone --   You are indeed correct at the conclusion -- but *only* in terms of = "pitch". The internal volume of any (flue) pipe (in any shape, size, or configuration...even reed pipes to a degree) is directly responsible for the frequency (pitch) of the musical note produced by it. The "quality" = of that tone, however, is another matter -- here is where all the rest of the factors (shape/material/configuration/mouth treatment/length-to-width ratios/etc) come into play to make the 'aural' difference between one form of pipe to another.   This is not to say that any odd pipe playing "16' F#" (random note, for purposes of discussion) has the same internal volume as any *other* odd 16' F# -- this is not the case, of course.   Irwin's (Audsley's?) point is proven simply by thinking of the fact that 16' F# (for instance) of a large scale open wood produces the same *note* (frequency) as 16' F# of a small scale Swell Bourdon -- the *note* is the same (even though the "tonality" is quite different), and *both* are adjusted (tuned) by changing the internal volume of each respective pipe via its tuner/stopper. Adjusting the tuning device alters the *pitch* of each pipe (but not its unique tonality). Consider the fact that any sort of tuning device affecting an organ pipe alters the pipe's *physical volume* in one way or another -- essentially either making the pipe a little larger (flatter) or a little smaller (sharper).   THUS, the "short, squat" pipe (pyramidion?) could theoretically produce = the same "note" as a more typical "long, skinny" (bourdon?) pipe, given the same relative internal capacity of its body. The "tone quality" of that note, however, is likely to be rather different.   Hope that all made sense...! <grin>   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR  
(back) Subject: Pyramidon in MTS organ specs From: <mts@intergrafix.net> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 05:36:14 GMT   Dear List,   I have read with GREAT interest all the commentary on my rather odd, alright, downright wierd choice of a pedal stop, the Pyramidon. Now I = answer the question put to me: why on earth would I use this thing? In building this organ, I'm trying to make it moveable and fit into my living room. WIth 22 ranks, this takes effort. I've worked out mostly all difficulties in the design, except what to = do with the pedal stop.An organ of that size needs more than one 16' (I = think) stop. Already The plans call for a Bourdon 16 (stopped), the next one = should differ. An actual 16' pipe, though, is out of the question. That would put = me and the organ out in the front yard. A "short, squat pipe" (not unlike my =   physical appearance according to my woman) seems to be an interesting alternative. Also, the fact that Audsley's entrance of it into his = Dictionary of Organ Stops (Art of Organ Building, volume the first, Chapter 13, p 554 =   (1965 version)) also contains a footnote by A Gore Ouseley saying "...the Pyramidon...is a failure" which made it even more appealing being a = challenge. I'm hoping it's tonal quality will resemble the Pyramidflote at it's respective octave, since a pyramidflote 8 and maybe 4 will be in the = expanded instrument. Thus, it could serve as the appropriate pedal bass. I've built theater speakers with the same fascinating qualities of this =   pipe, which is the third appeal of it to me. A network of channels is an option, but I think the cubic volume of this thing is what makes it tick. = I picture an inverted pyramid, to get more languid action on a higher = instead of longer cut-up. THis is going to take some serious experimentation, but I = think the phoenomenon of cancellation (which makes the failure) can be worked = around by careful placement, like I would in theater speaker assemblies. = Hopefully it will be unique, but nore so pleasing. Something nasty will quickly get scrapped. Several people have made references to sites where I may research this thing. Can you give me those addresses? Any information to be had will be appreciated. Thanks again and best of luck   Chris Malocheski, MTS Pipe Organ Div.      
(back) Subject: RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: <Ed_Stauff@avid.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 07:39:50 -0400       As promised, I finished the Pyramidon entry last night, which you can view here:   http://www.mewsic.com/stops/p/Pyramidon.html   Unless my sources were leaving out some critical information, the pipes were not internally partitioned in any way, as some have conjectured. Wedgwood talks about "cube" pipes, and provides a picture (which I scanned), but none of my sources have pictures of the Pyramidon.   I remember seeing a formula once that calculated the resonant frequency of a cylinder, and I'm pretty sure that the width figured into the calculation as well as the length. Helmholtz might have something on this; I meant to check "On the Sensations of Tone" last night, but I forgot.   -- Ed   #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D# | Ed Stauff, principal software eng. | I don't speak | "Specialization | | Avid Technology, Tewksbury MA, USA | for Avid, nor | is for insects." | | "ed_stauff#@#avid.com" (remove #'s) | vice versa. | -- Lazarus Long | #=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D#=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D#      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] lenght vs volume From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:00:13 -0400   > >THUS, the "short, squat" pipe (pyramidion?) could theoretically produce = the >same "note" as a more typical "long, skinny" (bourdon?) pipe, given the >same relative internal capacity of its body. The "tone quality" of that >note, however, is likely to be rather different. >   I don't know. It still seems to me that the actual length the wave needs to travel is what produces the frequency or (note) of the pipe. In a stopped pipe the wave travels to the end of the pipe and then back again effectively doubling the length. A large scale Bourdon pipe versus a small scale Leiblich Gedackt pipe of the same length will produce the same note. The difference is that the larger one will have more power at the fundamental frequency, and the internal capacity(volume) of it is much greater than the other.   In a reed pipe a full length resonator will produce the strongest fundamental and a half length to a lesser degree as the resonator only serves to amplify the the tone of the vibrating reed.   These are just my assumptions as I'm probably out to lunch, any other idea's, facts?   Eric    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:13:21 -0400   >As promised, I finished the Pyramidon entry last night, which you >can view here: > >http://www.mewsic.com/stops/p/Pyramidon.html >   Interesting. It basically just looks like a Bourdon with most of its height cut off. It would be interesting to hear one of these beasts. Maybe when the volume gets large enough the wave does a strange dance inside making it appear to have a length to travel. What do I know, I'm just an Electronics Tech. and an Organoholic.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon in MTS organ specs From: "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:32:09 -0400       mts@intergrafix.net wrote: > > Dear List, > > I have read with GREAT interest all the commentary on my rather odd, > alright, downright wierd choice of a pedal stop, the Pyramidon. Now I = answer > the question put to me: why on earth would I use this thing? > In building this organ, I'm trying to make it moveable and fit into = my > living room. WIth 22 ranks, this takes effort.   Of course, you always have to take Audsley with the grain of salt. I love reading his less than reserved deprecation of certain pieces of organ = design, but his opinions weren't (aren't) universally held.   Of course, you can always lay the opens on their sides for the bottom octave. I've got the bottom 13 of my 16' dulciana set up this way (they are mitred, but for a 10' ceiling which I don't have) plus the bottom two of the 16' bourdons.  
(back) Subject: Compton's Cube and other tricks................... From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:10:42 EDT   While I do organbuilding, voicing, and tuning work, my "real" job was to teach Physics. The whole idea behind the Compton Cube, which could be = made with various trap doors to allow it to go up the scale for a full octave, = was that the large internal volume resonated at a much lower frequency than = the apparent length of the pipe. What you had was a gigantic Hemholtz = resonator whereby the frequency was determined not by a standing wave up to the end = of the pipe, but by the internal mass of the air acting upon itself also in a =   spring function. Thus the oscillatory period is set by the inertia of the =   air and the transmission constant (modulus) of the air. Clear as mud, = right? Ok, remember your favorite 1956 Oldsmobile and think of it when on a = bridge or cement pavement where the springs and the inertial weight of the car = was just perfect for oscillation that you would bounce up and down at just the =   right speed; SAME THING, only the fat pipe uses air. Speaking of automobiles, sometimes in my '57 Chevy I would get to a certain speed with =   driver's window open and get a great 32' !   The Pyramidion like the Compton Cube relies more on internal volume than length.   Well, off to wind the console of a 4/42 Wurli..................   Best wishes to all,   Al Sefl, Ph.D. "A pipe organ is a graduate Physics student's resonance project gone completely out of control."  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Compton's Cube and other tricks................... From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:17:26 -0400   Thanks for the explanation Al! It helps to have knowledge in this area.   So there are different physics involved here to make the thing oscillate, than your typical pipe. If I only had the time to spare, I'd try to build one to play around with.   Eric  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] How is your project going? From: "Tom Ed Moore" <TMoore@unanov.una.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:05:20 -0500   Good Afternoon All,   With the start of school, both for me and my kids, it has taken me some = time to answer my mail.   My home organ project is well under way but has grown faster than I had expected. On the advice of someone on this list, I checked the materials = for sale on eBay. The result was a flying trip to the Chicago area to pick up = 10 ranks worth of chests. They are in great shape. So, instead of three = ranks, I am up to 15. Some of it will be playing by the holiday season. The = rest will have to wait for a school holiday or even next summer.   I have also had to move the instrument from the house to its new home in a =   special building in my back yard. I was warned that this project would = grow and so it has.   As soon as I can get some pictures I will post them.   Tom Ed Moore Florence, AL             >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Message From "Residence Organ List" = <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Good afternoon to all! > >Have you noticed lately that there has not been much reporting on all the >projects that we are working on. In my case, working at a university, = the >start of the semester takes a lot of the time that I could be putting = into >very important organ "things" like building, or at least playing and >practicing. > >SO........ if you have a minute, why not drop a line to our mostest = bestest >list and tell us what is going on with your project. Maybe it will even >give us some encouragement to get back to our most important task, that = is >building/playing our very own pipe organs. > >I also hope that everyone had a wonderful summer and ready for the fall. = I >know I am with 80+ days of no rain, temperatures in the 100s and even 111 >several days a couple of weeks ago. Now that the days are getting = shorter >and we have had a cold front, only 96 today in Fort Worth, it is time to >give some attention to Eleanor, my pipe organ. > >Have a great rest of the week! > >Craig Elders > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Compton's Cube and other tricks................... From: "wurlic1" <wurlic1@lara.on.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:46:18 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Compton's Cube and other tricks...................     > Thanks for the explanation Al! It helps to have knowledge in this area. > > So there are different physics involved here to make the thing > oscillate, than your typical pipe. If I only had the time to spare, > I'd try to build one to play around with. > > Eric > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: residence organ From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:28:33 -0500   HI list, My project is coming along well too! I have 5 ranks of my 13 playing now. The oboe sounds more like an 8' trumpet in my house. Wonderful sound and the odd thing is that that rank of pipes hasn't been tunned since the 1960's and all i had to do is just barely tap the tunning wire and there it was. Still waiting for the swell chest to be finished. Good luck to all. Gary Black    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:14:20 -0500   Eric Sagmuller wrote: > * * * > > Interesting. It basically just looks like a Bourdon with most of its > height cut off. It would be interesting to hear one of these beasts. > Maybe when the volume gets large enough the wave does a strange dance > inside making it appear to have a length to travel. What do I know, > I'm just an Electronics Tech. and an Organoholic. Here is an easy way to prove the concept. Get two bottles that you can blow across the opening and make a sound. One of the bottles should be half again as long as the other. Add water until they both make the same pitch when you blow them. The larger bottle will not have the same physical length of the narrower bottle when they are in tune. There should also be a difference in the timbre of the two sounds. So it is with windblown pipes. The scale affects the difference in the actual tone. The larger bottle should have a fatter tone and harmonic structure while maintaining the same pitch. I have a recording of a fine boys choir using tuned bottles to play an accompaniment line while the rest sang the main tune. That was beautiful. Note that this is the basic concept for sounding a stopped pipe. I = believe the parallel with pipes will hold up. I've played with this before. To prove the pudding, I'm going downstair right not and do this again just to show myself. F. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] residence organ From: "Mike McDonald" <pipeorganman@localaccess.com> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:18:54 -0700   Gary I just got 5 ranks of my wurlitzer playing last week end and I am excited too!!! I still have 12 ranks to go but what a sound. I am using a NEW switch system that has record and play .I am very impressed with it = and the cost is so very low $2000.00 for every thing very fast scan raTE AND NOT MECHANICAL AT ALL. i JUST SWAPPED OUT MY OBOE FOR A STOPPED DIAPASION BECAUSE UNTIL I GET THE SHUTTERS INSTALLED IT IS TO LOUD. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR ORGAN PROJECT. MIKE MCDONALD IN WASHINGTON   Gary Black wrote:   > HI list, My project is coming along well too! I have 5 ranks of my > 13 playing now. The oboe sounds more like an 8' trumpet in my house. > Wonderful sound and the odd thing is that that rank of pipes hasn't > been tunned since the 1960's and all i had to do is just barely tap the > tunning wire and there it was. Still waiting for the swell chest to be > finished. Good luck to all. Gary Black > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] residence organ From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:14:29 -0700   At 20:18 09/27/2000 -0700, Mike McDonald wrote: >Gary I just got 5 ranks of my wurlitzer playing last week end and I am >excited too!!! I still have 12 ranks to go but what a sound. I am using a >NEW switch system that has record and play .I am very impressed with it = and >the cost is so very low $2000.00 for every thing very fast scan raTE AND >NOT MECHANICAL AT ALL..   Hi, Mike. My Wurlitzer (opus 1142, style 216 2m/10rk) still has its electro-pneumatic relay, but I'm planning to replace it. Would you mind telling the list what system you are using?   Congrats to ALL of you, for doing what I SHOULD be doing; getting the = organ to PLAY!     Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com