DIYAPASON-L Digest #151G - Thursday, September 28, 2000
 
Short Bass pipes
  by "Pieter Smit" <pieter@cadence-engineering.co.za>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project)
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Bass pipes
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Bass pipes
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: Bass pipes
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  residence organ
  by "paul" <paulkruger@flashcom.net>
Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon in MTS organ specs
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Pyramidon
  by "james turner" <JTTUNER@webtv.net>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Pyramidon
  by "Louis Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Pyramidon
  by <mts@intergrafix.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Pyramidon
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Pyramidon
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blowers
  by "Jimmy" <jrbaird@erols.com>
 

(back) Subject: Short Bass pipes From: "Pieter Smit" <pieter@cadence-engineering.co.za> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:29:50 +0200   Hi list,   I have a mitred set of "Subbass" pipes in my residence organ. When I add another set, it shall be of the Haskell type.   Haskell pipes consist of a closed cylinder inside the pipe, to actually = fool the pipe to "appear" longer for the standing wave. Maybe Al Sefl can explain the working of the pipe to us. I also have a Gamba 8' = constructed according to the Haskell method. The longest pipe is only about 5' long. The sound great - typical string with all odd and even harmonics.   I have also experimented with stopped Haskells. The stopped pipe's tone was lowered by about 9 semitones, but it became quity like a quintadena. Increasing the diameter would rectify this.   Much could be learned about Haskells by searching "piporg-l" archives for "Haskell". If anybody is interested, I can forward some articles and drawings. Just give some time, as my study was moved to another room = this week and everthing is packed in boxes, unable to be found easily.   The open pipes (with all harmonics) - contain an inner cylinder of exactly one half the area, closed at the top and projecting slightly above the = open pipe. The stopped pipes (odd harmonics only) contains an inner cylinder closed at the bottom hanging from the stopper (open end at the stopper).   Although "classic" organ builders do not like Haskells - I think they are great for residence organs.   Pieter Smit pieter@cadence-engineering.co.za    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:07:35 -0400   Richard Burt wrote:     >Get two bottles that you can >blow across the opening and make a sound. "One of the bottles should be >half again as long as the other". > > >"The larger bottle will not have the same physical length of the narrower >bottle when they are in tune".   Dear Rich,   Do you mean half the diameter rather than half the length, in the first statement? The second seems to make it appear that way.   Thanks, Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@home.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:27:37 -0500   Eric Sagmuller wrote: > * * * > > Dear Rich, > > Do you mean half the diameter rather than half the length, in the > first statement? The second seems to make it appear that way. Many of the kids had 2-liter bottles (enjoyed emptying them into their stomachs). Others had various other sizes of drink bottles. I left the choice up to you. You might try a 20-ounce drink bottle and a 2-liter bottle to emphasize the difference between the two in length and diameter. Richard Burt effarbee@home.com  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: Pyramidon (was Re: MTS organ Project) From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:40:57 -0400   Thanks Rich. I'll give it a try when I get a chance.   Eric     > >Many of the kids had 2-liter bottles (enjoyed emptying them into their >stomachs). Others had various other sizes of drink bottles. I left >the choice up to you. You might try a 20-ounce drink bottle and a >2-liter bottle to emphasize the difference between the two in length >and diameter. > >Richard Burt    
(back) Subject: Bass pipes From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:20:01 -0400   The discussion here (and on PIPORG-L) about Pyramidons and Compton Cubes and Haskell basses has been interesting. (It was particularly fun to see "Haskells" get mentioned on PIPORG-L, and not by *me*, since that and "organ shoes" and a few other things seem to come back around every 6-10 months or so!)   While all 3 methods of achieving shortness of bass pipes will work, I'd wonder if many residence organ projects would be able to accommodate the very (!) wide pipes of the Pyramidon or Cube. Of course, if those pipes were constructed as poly-phonic pipes, sounding more than one pitch, then you'd need fewer of them, thereby saving some of the space. Still -- = pipes that are, say, 2 feet across will eat up lots of floor space!   Haskells solve that problem, with perhaps only a minor increase in pipe scale (a few notes' worth?) in some cases. For strings, the speech *improvements* caused by the Haskellization have been mentioned time and time again; this can even apply to larger-scaled stops such as Diapasons.   One other possible problem with the Pyramidon or Cube is that the tone is VERY dull, much like a large-scaled Bourdon. If you already have a normal =   Bourdon, then perhaps one of these wide guys would provide little variety. If you want a "Big Rumble" and a "Little Rumble", then it might be better to look at using one of the various schemes for getting two different volumes out of the same pipe. You could use the multiple valves =   approach that Wicks sometimes has used, or you could use the multiple-flue =   approach that Link used on some theatre (and church?!?) organs.   In the case of the former, multiple valves, you'd provide two valve per pipe, each with its own little slider for regulation, joining into a = single toehole for the pipe, which would be regulated "wide open". By adjusting the sliders carefuly, you would be able to have a smaller or larger (or both!) amount of wind reach the pipe foot. In effect, you'd have a variable toehole. I've seen this work on small Wicks instruments, in = which you see "Bourdon" and "Lieblich" stoptabs, and in fact you get 4 different =   volumes (none, Lieblich, Bourdon, and both). By using separate regulator slider per pipe, you can fine-adjust the results. This is probably better =   than using a two-pressure "Lieblich Gedeckt action" that changes the pressure for the entire bottom octave.   Double flues were used by Link (and by some small builder in Rochester, NY), to get the same effect. Imagine a normal Bourdon pipe feed from its foot; that is the "big" sound. Now, modify the pipe's cap so that you = have a second flue "in front" of the normal one and separated by just a thin strip of wood. This second flue connects to a cavity in the cap piece and =   that connects via a flexible wind conductor to its own valve unit. Again, =   separate regulators are fitted to each wind supply path. This second flue =   is only about 1/2 as wide as the pipe mouth, leaving the sides of the = mouth without a windsheet when the "little" sound is playing. I don't know what =   effect you get if you play both flues at once. (A set of 16' Tibia Clausa =   pipes exists about 1 mile from where I sit right now, but it is unplayable =   and so I can't tell you what would happen!)   A survey of past residence organ designs suggests several approaches to = the matter of having more than just one 16' stop. Estey seemed to favor = having both a Bourdon and a (Haskelled!) Violone, some of their correspondence suggesting that those two were the best choice for use with their player organ rolls. For a human organist, they prefered a Bourdon and a Lieblich =   Gedeckt, but I don't know why! Aeolian sometimes used a two-pressure action for a single Bourdon, and of course their standard Duo-Art player specification called for a Bourdon, a Lieblich, a Violone, and a Basson, all at 16'.   A Bourdon and a (small-ish?) reed at 16' would satisfy many folks, but small-ish 16' reeds are difficult to find, especially on the used pipe market. Some PIPORG-L discussions a few years ago talked about the value of having an *open* 8' flute in the Pedal -- it would often blend with the =   small 16' Bourdon to produce a much stronger hybrid sound, one that was praised for its versitility. For my own residence organ project, I have a =   very small 16' Bourdon, about 4" by 5" inside, and I'm thinking about trying it with an 8' Open Diapason bass of wood (Moller, and about the = same scale). Since there is a lack of height, the bottom 6 or so of each would =   have to be horizontal, and the idea would be to stack them interleaved, so =   that the C pipes would be adjacent, and so on. That might tend to enhance =   their tendency to blend well, forming a more effective bass.   I also have a 16' Posaune, full-length and heavily mitered, but that was found purely by chance and it is not clear whether or not it will work well. The other thing I'll try is one of those Wicks free-reed 16' units, =   12 notes in a box with internal (cardboard?) resonators. The direct-electric (yes, it's from Wicks!) double-acting valves actually just =   open the tops of the resonators, the free-reed units (from Estey?) being constantly supplied with wind. This unit sounds somewhat Clarinet-ish (surprise?) and might serve as the 16' bottom to an Aeolian free-reed Clarinet or it might serve as the bottom of a Dulciana or String, perhaps with that rank also playing along at 8' pitch.   At least in my small (tiny!) organ chamber, 12 Pyramidon pipes would probably consume the entire floor space!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Bass pipes From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:09:42 EDT   Now you have me thinking again, a bad thing, the 16'Gadeckt in the swell = has two valves under the mouth. Each valve has it's magnet, I wonder if it = would be worth rewiring the magnets to open separately then together for more volume. I have a big 16'Hall bourdon to shake the room almost ready to go, = I am finishing the 8'and up chest right now. Then hopefully back to the = choir chests. What was the talk about putting a Haskkel top on a string making it better =   sounding along with help the to tall problem?   Have fun Dennis Allen  
(back) Subject: Re: Bass pipes From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:29:23 -0400   Dennis Allen <Pipewheezr@aol.com> asked about Haskell strings and the effect of the Haskell tube on the pipe's speech. It seems, especially for =   strings, and especially in the 16' octave, that the Haskell construction with its internal tube and HUGE roller beard makes the strings "richer" = and quicker of speach. At an OHS convention "North of Boston" a few years = ago, the late Earl Miller demonstrated an Estey in a Masonic Temple (I think). He commented that the Haskelled 16' Open Diapason and Violones were among the best he had ever heard, and he wished that normal pipes could be made to speak that well.   Dennis also mentioned having double valves on the bottom of his Swell 16' Gedeckt. Whether or not the valve sized and associated borings are large enough that one of them would provide sufficient wind for the pipes to speak is something he'd have to test. If I were building such a chest, = I'd have each valve be large enough to provide *more* than enough wind. Then I'd use the regulating slides (or butterfly valves or whatever) to choke each one down appropriately for the desired effect. It is possible that not all four combinations of the two valves would prove useful. Experimentation is required, since various ranks will behave differently.   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] residence organ From: "paul" <paulkruger@flashcom.net> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:07:43 -0700   Bob lesch that type switching are you using thanks Paul Kruger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] residence organ     > At 20:18 09/27/2000 -0700, Mike McDonald wrote: > >Gary I just got 5 ranks of my wurlitzer playing last week end and I am > >excited too!!! I still have 12 ranks to go but what a sound. I am using = a > >NEW switch system that has record and play .I am very impressed with it and > >the cost is so very low $2000.00 for every thing very fast scan raTE = AND > >NOT MECHANICAL AT ALL.. > > Hi, Mike. My Wurlitzer (opus 1142, style 216 2m/10rk) still has its > electro-pneumatic relay, but I'm planning to replace it. Would you mind > telling the list what system you are using? > > Congrats to ALL of you, for doing what I SHOULD be doing; getting the organ > to PLAY! > > > Regards, > Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA > NAWCC 140818 > http://www.jps.net/rrloesch > alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon in MTS organ specs From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:37:46 CDT   Dear Chris and Fellow Listers:   I was wondering why you did not consider a 16' reed or reed extension instead of the pyramidon. If the object was to take up less height while providing a second 16' pedal stop, that would be my first choice. It appears from the literature that the pyramidon would not be different = enough in tone from the bourdon to produce a useable second 16' pedal stop. In addition, in exchange for the height that you save you will increase your windchest dimensions about eight-fold. If you were to put in a 16' reed, however, the windchest dimensions would probably be the same or less than that of the bourdon and they could be mitred to any length requirement. I've seen 16' trumpets, for example, in which the CCC pipe was only 4' = long. In addition, they pyramid does not exist either on the new or used = market and would have to be built from scratch, and it doesn't appear as though = any drawings exist.   I'm all too familiar with the necessity of dealing with space = requirements. My own organ had to fit up a very narrow winding staircase into a room = with only a 6-1/2 foot ceiling requirement. It can bee seen at the URL below (it's on the DIYAPASON home page). My organ can only have one 16' covered stop and only one full length 8' stop. The oboes are mitred and the = bottom octave of the salizionals are haskelled. But if I desired a second 16' stop, I would try to find a mitred 16' half-length reed.   Unless, of course you chose to build a pyramidon into the instrument expressly for the purpose of making the instrument different, in which = case I would say wholeheartedly that you succeeded. There are few, if any = stops quite as elusive as the pyramidon. Even if the tone were exactly like the =   common bourdon, the shape and construction would be utterly unique. Place =   those pipes where people can see them.   Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.   Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.    
(back) Subject: Pyramidon From: "james turner" <JTTUNER@webtv.net> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:49:35 -0500 (EST)   William Haskell invented Haskell stopped bourdons in which the lowest C pipe was only 4' tall. You can get a copy of this patent (and his other patents) from the patent office for a few bucks.   Unfortunately, I have never seen as haskelled stopped bourdon and I haven't met anyone who has. For some unknown reason, Estey didn't produce them or only made a few. To bad because they would have been a real space saver.   Anyone on this list ever see a set?   Jim Turner    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon From: "Louis Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:49:55 +0200   Hello List,   The Estey Residence Player Pipeorgan # 2088 from 1923 which my client has bought from James Turner this year, the same one I'm restoring completely now has true Haskell pipes, in metal and in wood.   Isn't that nice?????????   They are not for sale ofcourse!!!     Louis Huivenaar Netherlands Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) Website: www.harmoniums.com   -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens = james turner Verzonden: donderdag 28 september 2000 22:50 Aan: Residence Organ List Onderwerp: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon   William Haskell invented Haskell stopped bourdons in which the lowest C pipe was only 4' tall. You can get a copy of this patent (and his other patents) from the patent office for a few bucks.   Unfortunately, I have never seen as haskelled stopped bourdon and I haven't met anyone who has. For some unknown reason, Estey didn't produce them or only made a few. To bad because they would have been a real space saver.   Anyone on this list ever see a set?   Jim Turner     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon From: <mts@intergrafix.net> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:54:57 GMT   > William Haskell invented Haskell stopped bourdons in which the lowest C > pipe was only 4' tall. You can get a copy of this patent (and his other > patents) from the patent office for a few bucks. > > Unfortunately, I have never seen as haskelled stopped bourdon and I > haven't met anyone who has. For some unknown reason, Estey didn't > produce them or only made a few. To bad because they would have been a > real space saver. > > Anyone on this list ever see a set? > > Jim Turner     Althought I have never seen a set, I have seen the diagrahm of the pipe in = WH Barnes' book "The Contemporary American Organ," ninth edition. It is interesting and a possibility for the MTS organ pedal division.   Chris Malocheski, MTS      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:55:19 -0700   mts@intergrafix.net wrote:   > > William Haskell invented Haskell stopped bourdons in which the lowest = C   In my 18 months as a helper in a semi-local organ shop I saw quite a few = sets of haskell pipes. I also found several in a set of miscellaneous pipes I was given. I can recommend them. A very informative article, with diagrams, appeared in the Tracker (OHS quarterly publication) several years ago. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I will find the issue information and send = it to the list.   Mac Hayes    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Pyramidon From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:19:17 -0500   Haskell pipe pix and info would be very welcome. Thank you.   Rick      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blowers From: "Jimmy" <jrbaird@erols.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:23:39 -0400   I will be removing a Spencer Orgablow (sp) from a church next week. It is FREE to anyone who can use it. It is 3/4 HP, located on the ground floor next to an outside door in Northern Virginia. Reply privately please.   Jimmy Baird