DIYAPASON-L Digest #292 - Tuesday, April 3, 2001
 
Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between)
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far  between)
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between)
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a farbetween)
  by "John Burns" <burnsjr@prodigy.net>
Re: What size regulators and WPs?
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: What size regulators and WPs?
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re: Chimes wind draw?
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Chimes wind draw?
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Formulas and Formulae
  by <DLShuker@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between)
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Re: Reservoir vs. Regulator & Winker vs. Book Regulator
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: What size regulators and WPs?
  by "paul" <paulkruger@flashcom.net>
Winker vs. Concussion Bellows ( was  Re: What size regulators and WPs?)
  by "John Burns" <burnsjr@prodigy.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between) From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:53:33 EDT   There is nothing more fun than answering simple questions; too bad the = ones below are anything but simple, nevertheless, here goes:   > As I plan the layout for my organ, it will be necessary to change = certain > things found in its last layout. That layout was also, not original. = What > I seek is the optimum distance that a regulator be offset from its = chest. > Also, if I build new regulators, how do I scale them?   Regulators are built to deliver wind according to rank(s) draw. Each rank =   has its own draw rating, a large scaled flue will have a high draw as = opposed to a tiny regal reed which uses little wind. Thrown into the mix is the operating pressure desired and possible tremulation requirements. For a single rank like a Vox Humana you could use an 18" x 24" single rise regulator with curtain valve and have no problems. On the opposite = extreme a scale 38 Open Diapason would require a 30" x 40" regulator to handle quick =   large chords and the three valve style regulator is hard to beat. For multiple ranks the regulator size increases. Pipe organs have not yet = been engineered closely enough to be very specific on component size. It is = still by-and-large an empirical art when a pipe organ is built. This drives engineers nuts! While I have a doctorate is in Physics, a Masters in Industrial Design, and a BS in Electronics Engineering, I approach organbuilding the way my grandfather and dad did. It is the "that looks about right" school of design then add 50% fudge factor and another 50% safety margin for operating headroom. In essence, you pick up the 8' CC = of the largest flue (usually the Open or a Grossflute). You look at the = windway cross-sectional area and the pipe toe hole then check the cutup and see if =   the voicer has written the windpressure on the pipe (hopefully). In your head you are thinking, "a full chord with octave couplers will have x = number of pipes drawing wind." Mentally you add the average toe hole/windway = areas for all the ranks in a largest draw case then make the total valve areas 3 = to 4 times your estimate of the maximum. Then, as a rule-of-thumb, the size = of the regulator top area is greater than 10 times the total valve area. I prefer 12 times myself but this figure varies wildly depending on = tremulation method (if any) and other factors. Figuring what spring ratings you need = is the easy part and the formula I worked out is Total Spring Tension =3D The =   Number of Square Inches of Regulator Top times (x) [The Desired Wind = Pressure divided by (/) 27.68]. The 27.68 is one PSI. So, a regulator that is 20" = x 30" for a pressure of 3.5" will require (600"sq. x [3.5/27.68] for a = combined spring equilibrium force of 76 pounds tension. If four springs are used, each will be at 19 pounds tension at pressure equilibrium. > One specific problem that I now have deals with a four rank echo chest. = It > appears that I cannot locate the regulator any closer than six feet = away. > Is that too far? The chest is on 3 1/2 inches of pressure.   What are the ranks? Small scaled echo flues and a reed will work just = fine with a windline of six feet and a windline diameter of 4+ inches for your straight echo chest. Unification would require just slightly larger = windline diameter in the 6" region. REMEMBER, a pipe organ is a *low* volume = *high* pressure device when you think in terms of the fluid dynamics normally = used in the design of HVAC units. You would be surprised at how small a = diameter of windline may be used in most instances and I have laughed to myself on seeing some drastically stupid overdone winding, the worst was a one foot section of clear acrylic 4" tubing to connect a simple 12 note treble = offset chest to a main windchest where a 1" windline would have been more than adequate and visually less obtrusive (even a soda straw would have carried =   enough wind). On second thought there was an organ in San Mateo that had = 14" windline run everywhere when a 6" line would have been just fine. The concrete drilling through the walls for the 14" line cost almost as much = as the used organ! > In general, how does one figure regulator size? Additionally, how far = can > a regulator be removed from its chest? Of course this discussion should > include the distance a trem is located away from the chest. And last, = what > size windway between chest and regulator should be used, given the = number > of ranks   Most good organ builders will try to get the regulators as close to the windchests as possible. Since the air in the wind conductors acts like a spring delay line, keeping the windlines as short as possible makes for = more steady wind and more solid pipe speech. There is another school of organ building where reservoirs are used instead of regulators and long wind conductors are OK because the builders like the unsteady wind sound. I personally tend to think of it as *musical jello* since I am bothered by = any pitch sag caused by neo-baroque style winding. Some builders even go out = of their way to underwind and create unsteady wind saying that it gives the organ a more live character. I cannot sit and listen to these instruments =   which many have proudly proclaimed to be in vogue.   > Curious is Missouri > Bob Taylor >>   I have probably created more questions than I answered and I fear that my explanations are less than clear but I hope my comments have helped a = little. Best wishes to all,   Al Sefl Whose winding is achieved with beans................   PS: I am about halfway through writing an article for the next issue of = *The Glue Pot* on regulator design. A key to good design is to have the valves =   open in as linear a fashion as possible for wind and regulator stability. =   e.g. A drop of 0.25" on the regulator top opens the valves 2.5 square = inches more and this is linear from fully open valves to fully closed.  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between) From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:51:43 -0400   Thanks for the great info. Al.     At 6:53 AM -0400 4/3/01, TheGluePot@aol.com wrote: > >Most good organ builders will try to get the regulators as close to the >windchests as possible. Since the air in the wind conductors acts like a >spring delay line, keeping the windlines as short as possible makes for = more >steady wind and more solid pipe speech.   Doesn't a "Winker" help some with a situation where the regulator may be a little far from the chest? Also keeping the windline larger?   Thanks, Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between) From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:32:22 -0500   Re: Winkers.   I have those on my WurliTzer leading in to the traps and percussions, on = the console preset action, on the swell shades and also on bass offset chests to cancel the trem effect.   Rick    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a farbetween) From: "John Burns" <burnsjr@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:32:41 -0400   Al,   Could you comment on:   1. What size (if any) regulator is needed for various tonal percussions on = a Wurlitzer TPO, and what WP range is optimal for these.   2. Any regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP there?   3. What regulator, WP for toy counter and other toys.   4. Where is the best place for a wind/surf machine (I realize this may = have no general answer).   I would have asked these questions on Theatreorgans-L, but I got second degree burns on the fingers of my right hand when I opened that folder in Outlook yesterday.   Thanks, John   -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of TheGluePot@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 6:54 AM To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a farbetween)      
(back) Subject: Re: What size regulators and WPs? From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:36:16 EDT   In a message dated 4/3/01 7:35:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, burnsjr@prodigy.net writes: << Al, > Could you comment on: > 1. What size (if any) regulator is needed for various tonal percussions = on a > Wurlitzer TPO, and what WP range is optimal for these.   Unlike pipes, percussions and traps just use a small bit of air in one = shot. If you do the math for a pneumatic you find little wind is used. A = pneumatic of 1.25" width and 6" length with a span of 1.5" uses just 5.63 cubic *inches* of wind! That is virtually nothing so a book regulator (winker = with a valve) can handle these easily. Add to that the fact that simple = inflate pneumatics work over a wide range with the percussion note still playing = just fine and you see why cheaper "winker" type regulators were used by = Wurlitzer for percussions and traps. If you really wanted to be fancy, a full regulator of even the smallest size would work well. I once computed that = a set of chimes playing a melody would use just 2 CFM. > 2. Any regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP there?   On many of the original installations there was no regulator on the shades = at all. Full static on shades or percussions is not a good idea. Today to = keep the shades from jumping open on high wind pressures and straining the hardware (it is not unusual for connecting rods and pins to break) a regulator of any type that will deliver 12" is considered just fine. I = have one client who did not have studio shutters and complained that they were = too noisy so we lowered the operating pressure to 10" which slowed the shutter =   opening speed just enough to quiet them down to his tastes. > 3. What regulator, WP for toy counter and other toys.   I personally like 10" to 12" for speed and gentleness of the actions. A = few actions like the "grandfather chime" (Wurlitzer church bell on the FOX specials) like to have 15"WP but then again it is pushing around a 4 pound =   metal hammer to strike the chime. A simple small book regulator will work =   just fine for traps. > 4. Where is the best place for a wind/surf machine (I realize this may = have no general answer).   There is a reason the surf machine and sand block machines are mounted on = a large windtrunk connected to raw static wind. In effect they are huge controlled leaks. When operated they just dump all the air that will go through them through the slot and across the tin plate for the rushing = sound. The windtrunk that has the best wind supply nearest to the blower line = into the chamber is my choice unless it is buried behind everything in the = chamber. > I would have asked these questions on Theatreorgans-L, but I got second > degree burns on the fingers of my right hand when I opened that folder = in > Outlook yesterday.   What folder? My delete keys need replacement regularly from overuse and I must have missed that one! Most non-technical flame-war threads go direct = to my store of extra electrons located on the bottom DRAM chip in my computer =   where they seem to fall and get captured for recycling. ;-) > Thanks, > John >>   Al Sefl Will build organs for food........ but work on Wurlitzers for = free......... The devil makes me do it.........  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: What size regulators and WPs? From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 11:46:23 -0500   --=3D_114AEF74.F5943FC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes etc I have found an EP =3D chime action " Split " I have been told that it works on in of WP dose =3D this seem possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 horse Spencer = =3D blower that is running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would this =3D enable any of the other organ from working=3D20 thanks John C   >>> TheGluePot@aol.com 04/03/01 11:36AM >>>=3D20 In a message dated 4/3/01 7:35:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,=3D20 burnsjr@prodigy.net writes:=3D20 << Al,=3D20 > Could you comment on:=3D20 > 1. What size (if any) regulator is needed for various tonal percussions = =3D on a=3D20 > Wurlitzer TPO, and what WP range is optimal for these.=3D20   Unlike pipes, percussions and traps just use a small bit of air in one =3D shot.=3D20 If you do the math for a pneumatic you find little wind is used. A =3D pneumatic=3D20 of 1.25" width and 6" length with a span of 1.5" uses just 5.63 cubic=3D20 *inches* of wind! That is virtually nothing so a book regulator (winker = =3D with=3D20 a valve) can handle these easily. Add to that the fact that simple =3D inflate=3D20 pneumatics work over a wide range with the percussion note still playing = =3D just=3D20 fine and you see why cheaper "winker" type regulators were used by =3D Wurlitzer=3D20 for percussions and traps. If you really wanted to be fancy, a full=3D20 regulator of even the smallest size would work well. I once computed that = =3D a=3D20 set of chimes playing a melody would use just 2 CFM.=3D20   > 2. Any regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP there?=3D20   On many of the original installations there was no regulator on the shades = =3D at=3D20 all. Full static on shades or percussions is not a good idea. Today to =3D keep=3D20 the shades from jumping open on high wind pressures and straining the=3D20 hardware (it is not unusual for connecting rods and pins to break) a=3D20 regulator of any type that will deliver 12" is considered just fine. I =3D have=3D20 one client who did not have studio shutters and complained that they were = =3D too=3D20 noisy so we lowered the operating pressure to 10" which slowed the =3D shutter=3D20 opening speed just enough to quiet them down to his tastes.=3D20   > 3. What regulator, WP for toy counter and other toys.=3D20   I personally like 10" to 12" for speed and gentleness of the actions. A = =3D few=3D20 actions like the "grandfather chime" (Wurlitzer church bell on the = FOX=3D20 specials) like to have 15"WP but then again it is pushing around a 4 =3D pound=3D20 metal hammer to strike the chime. A simple small book regulator will =3D work=3D20 just fine for traps.=3D20   > 4. Where is the best place for a wind/surf machine (I realize this may = =3D have=3D20 no general answer).=3D20   There is a reason the surf machine and sand block machines are mounted on = =3D a=3D20 large windtrunk connected to raw static wind. In effect they are huge=3D20 controlled leaks. When operated they just dump all the air that will = go=3D20 through them through the slot and across the tin plate for the rushing =3D sound.=3D20 The windtrunk that has the best wind supply nearest to the blower line =3D into=3D20 the chamber is my choice unless it is buried behind everything in the =3D chamber.=3D20   > I would have asked these questions on Theatreorgans-L, but I got =3D second=3D20 > degree burns on the fingers of my right hand when I opened that folder = =3D in=3D20 > Outlook yesterday.=3D20   What folder? My delete keys need replacement regularly from overuse and = =3D I=3D20 must have missed that one! Most non-technical flame-war threads go direct = =3D to=3D20 my store of extra electrons located on the bottom DRAM chip in my =3D computer=3D20 where they seem to fall and get captured for recycling. ;-)=3D20   > Thanks,=3D20 > John=3D20 >>=3D20   Al Sefl=3D20 Will build organs for food........ but work on Wurlitzers for = free.........=3D =3D20 The devil makes me do it.........=3D20   DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20   --=3D_114AEF74.F5943FC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes etc = I =3D have=3D20 found an EP chime action &quot; Split &quot; I have been told that it =3D works on=3D20 in of WP dose this seem possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 = =3D horse=3D20 Spencer blower that is running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would = =3D this=3D20 enable any of the other organ from working </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>thanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>John C</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:TheGluePot@aol.com">TheGluePot@aol.com</A> 04/03/01 =3D 11:36AM=3D20 &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>In a message dated 4/3/01 7:35:01 AM Pacific Daylight =3D Time,=3D20 <BR><U><A = href=3D3D"mailto:burnsjr@prodigy.net">burnsjr@prodigy.net</A></U> =3D writes:=3D20 <BR>&lt;&lt; Al, <BR>&gt; Could you comment on: <BR>&gt; 1. What size (if = =3D any)=3D20 regulator is needed for various tonal percussions on a <BR>&gt; Wurlitzer = =3D TPO,=3D20 and what WP range is optimal for these. <BR><BR>Unlike pipes, percussions = =3D and=3D20 traps just use a small bit of air in one shot. <BR>If you do the math for = =3D a=3D20 pneumatic you find little wind is used. A pneumatic <BR>of 1.25&quot; =3D width and=3D20 6&quot; length with a span of 1.5&quot; uses just 5.63 cubic <BR>*inches* = =3D of=3D20 wind! That is virtually nothing so a book regulator (winker with <BR>a =3D valve)=3D20 can handle these easily. Add to that the fact that simple inflate =3D <BR>pneumatics=3D20 work over a wide range with the percussion note still playing just =3D <BR>fine and=3D20 you see why cheaper &quot;winker&quot; type regulators were used by =3D Wurlitzer=3D20 <BR>for percussions and traps. If you really wanted to be fancy, a = full=3D20 <BR>regulator of even the smallest size would work well. I once computed = =3D that a=3D20 <BR>set of chimes playing a melody would use just 2 CFM. <BR><BR>&gt; 2. = =3D Any=3D20 regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP there? <BR><BR>On many = =3D of the=3D20 original installations there was no regulator on the shades at <BR>all. = =3D Full=3D20 static on shades or percussions is not a good idea. Today to keep <BR>the = =3D shades=3D20 from jumping open on high wind pressures and straining the <BR>hardware = =3D (it is=3D20 not unusual for connecting rods and pins to break) a <BR>regulator of any = =3D type=3D20 that will deliver 12&quot; is considered just fine. I have <BR>one client = =3D who=3D20 did not have studio shutters and complained that they were too <BR>noisy = =3D so we=3D20 lowered the operating pressure to 10&quot; which slowed the shutter =3D <BR>opening=3D20 speed just enough to quiet them down to his tastes. <BR><BR>&gt; 3. =3D What=3D20 regulator, WP for toy counter and other toys. <BR><BR>I personally like = =3D 10&quot;=3D20 to 12&quot; for speed and gentleness of the actions. A few <BR>actions =3D like the=3D20 &quot;grandfather chime&quot; (Wurlitzer church bell on the FOX = <BR>special=3D s)=3D20 like to have 15&quot;WP but then again it is pushing around a 4 pound =3D <BR>metal=3D20 hammer to strike the chime. A simple small book regulator will work =3D <BR>just=3D20 fine for traps. <BR><BR>&gt; 4. Where is the best place for a wind/surf = =3D machine=3D20 (I realize this may have <BR>no general answer). <BR><BR>There is a reason = =3D the=3D20 surf machine and sand block machines are mounted on a <BR>large =3D windtrunk=3D20 connected to raw static wind. In effect they are huge <BR>controlled =3D leaks. When=3D20 operated they just dump all the air that will go <BR>through them through =3D the=3D20 slot and across the tin plate for the rushing sound. <BR>The windtrunk =3D that has=3D20 the best wind supply nearest to the blower line into <BR>the chamber is = =3D my=3D20 choice unless it is buried behind everything in the chamber. <BR><BR>&gt; = =3D I=3D20 would have asked these questions on Theatreorgans-L, but I got second =3D <BR>&gt;=3D20 degree burns on the fingers of my right hand when I opened that folder =3D in=3D20 <BR>&gt; Outlook yesterday. <BR><BR>What folder? My delete keys need =3D replacement=3D20 regularly from overuse and I <BR>must have missed that one! Most = non-techni=3D cal=3D20 flame-war threads go direct to <BR>my store of extra electrons located on = =3D the=3D20 bottom DRAM chip in my computer <BR>where they seem to fall and get =3D captured for=3D20 recycling. ;-) <BR><BR>&gt; Thanks, <BR>&gt; John <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR><BR>Al = =3D Sefl=3D20 <BR>Will build organs for food........ but work on Wurlitzers for =3D free.........=3D20 <BR>The devil makes me do it......... <BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion = =3D list for=3D20 owners and builders of their own <BR>Residence Pipe Organs. <BR>HOMEPAGE : = =3D <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= .o=3D rg</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= /A=3D ></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= ha=3D t.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_114AEF74.F5943FC2--  
(back) Subject: Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:56:17 EDT   In a message dated 4/3/01 4:52:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ess4@psu.edu writes: << > Doesn't a "Winker" help some with a situation where the regulator may > be a little far from the chest? Also keeping the windline larger? > Thanks, > Eric >>   Hello Eric:   A true winker with no valve can actually cause some unsteady wind and is = not desirable in most cases. The larger windline is needed only if a distance =   goes beyond a critical distance and will help only slightly in most instances. Think of air as a slinky toy, the spring toy from the 1950s. = If you streatch the spring out like air in a windline and pull on one end to represent a drop in pressure, it takes a few moments to transfer the drop = to the other end. A larger slinky diameter would still take a moment to transfer the drop as does a larger wind conductor. If organs used high volumes of wind then a larger diameter line would be of more importance = but they acutally use small volumes of wind. There is no good substitute for putting the regulator as close to the pipes as possible in order to keep = the air spring as short as possible thereby increasing the quickness of the regulator reaction to wind draws.   Al Sefl Whose explanations are always clear as mud............  
(back) Subject: Re: Chimes wind draw? From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:10:55 EDT   In a message dated 4/3/01 9:48:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us writes: << hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes etc I have found an EP = chime action " Split " I have been told that it works on in of WP dose this seem =   possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 horse Spencer blower that = is running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would this enable any of the = other organ from working thanks > John C >>   John I am unclear on the WP that you were told as you left out the number = but I will say that most percussions will run on WP from 5" to 50" which is a range from weakly playing to destructive testing. No matter what, chimes will not draw enough wind to keep the current blower from doing its job unless the blower is already overdrawn.   Al Sefl Who would like to destructively test a couple of new trackers he's heard lately..... First the crash test..............  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Chimes wind draw? From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:18:44 -0500   --=3D_8FD47211.85E44FB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   Al=3D20 sorry the chime action so I was told worked on 5 in WP is there any =3D benefit to a EP action V.S. and electric Action=3D20   >>> TheGluePot@aol.com 04/03/01 12:10PM >>>=3D20 In a message dated 4/3/01 9:48:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,=3D20 jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us writes:=3D20 <<=3D20 hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes etc I have found an EP =3D chime=3D20 action " Split " I have been told that it works on in of WP dose this =3D seem=3D20 possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 horse Spencer blower that = =3D is=3D20 running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would this enable any of the = =3D other=3D20 organ from working=3D20 thanks=3D20 > John C=3D20 >>=3D20   John I am unclear on the WP that you were told as you left out the number = =3D but=3D20 I will say that most percussions will run on WP from 5" to 50" which is = =3D a=3D20 range from weakly playing to destructive testing. No matter what, =3D chimes=3D20 will not draw enough wind to keep the current blower from doing its = job=3D20 unless the blower is already overdrawn.=3D20   Al Sefl=3D20 Who would like to destructively test a couple of new trackers he's =3D heard=3D20 lately.....=3D20 First the crash test..............=3D20   DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20   --=3D_8FD47211.85E44FB4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>Al </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>sorry the chime action so I was told worked on 5 in = WP =3D is=3D20 there any benefit to a EP action V.S. and electric Action=3D20 </FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:TheGluePot@aol.com">TheGluePot@aol.com</A> 04/03/01 =3D 12:10PM=3D20 &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>In a message dated 4/3/01 9:48:15 AM Pacific Daylight =3D Time,=3D20 <BR><U><A = href=3D3D"mailto:jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us">jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us</=3D A></U>=3D20 writes: <BR>&lt;&lt; <BR>hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes = =3D etc I=3D20 have found an EP chime <BR>action &quot; Split &quot; I have been told =3D that it=3D20 works on in of WP dose this seem <BR>possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I = =3D have=3D20 a 1/3 horse Spencer blower that is <BR>running 5 ranks if I got this =3D chime=3D20 action would this enable any of the other <BR>organ from working = <BR>thanks=3D =3D20 <BR>&gt; John C <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR><BR>John I am unclear on the WP that you = =3D were=3D20 told as you left out the number but <BR>I will say that most percussions = =3D will=3D20 run on WP from 5&quot; to 50&quot; which is a <BR>range from weakly =3D playing to=3D20 destructive testing. No matter what, chimes <BR>will not draw enough wind = =3D to=3D20 keep the current blower from doing its job <BR>unless the blower is =3D already=3D20 overdrawn. <BR><BR>Al Sefl <BR>Who would like to destructively test a =3D couple of=3D20 new trackers he's heard <BR>lately..... <BR>First the crash = test...........=3D ....=3D20 <BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their = =3D own=3D20 <BR>Residence Pipe Organs. <BR>HOMEPAGE : <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= .o=3D rg</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= /A=3D ></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= ha=3D t.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_8FD47211.85E44FB4--  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:28:02 -0400   That seems to make sense Al. But what is a "winker" or "concussion" bellows actually used for? I believe they are the same thing. I read up on these at one point in I believe it was Barnes organ book. It explained there that the device somehow drew in room air or expelled air to the room to do its regulating job. I've also heard of these used to eliminate a quick fluctuation in windpressure.   Confused as usual, Eric     At 12:56 PM -0400 4/3/01, TheGluePot@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 4/3/01 4:52:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ess4@psu.edu >writes: ><< > > Doesn't a "Winker" help some with a situation where the regulator may > > be a little far from the chest? Also keeping the windline larger? > > Thanks, > > Eric > >> > >Hello Eric: > >A true winker with no valve can actually cause some unsteady wind and is = not >desirable in most cases. The larger windline is needed only if a = distance >goes beyond a critical distance and will help only slightly in most >instances. Think of air as a slinky toy, the spring toy from the 1950s. = If >you streatch the spring out like air in a windline and pull on one end to >represent a drop in pressure, it takes a few moments to transfer the drop = to >the other end. A larger slinky diameter would still take a moment to >transfer the drop as does a larger wind conductor. If organs used high >volumes of wind then a larger diameter line would be of more importance = but >they acutally use small volumes of wind. There is no good substitute for >putting the regulator as close to the pipes as possible in order to keep = the >air spring as short as possible thereby increasing the quickness of the >regulator reaction to wind draws. > >Al Sefl >Whose explanations are always clear as mud............ > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:49:41 -0400   Winkers act more like a variable volume than like a regulator. That is, they can change shape (volume) but they cannot change the wind pressure. They are capacitors, not voltage regulators!   A momentary pulse of higher pressure will cause the winker to increase its =   volume, thereby (you hope!) letting the high pressure pulse dissipate. A momentary pulse of lower pressure will cause the winder to decrease its volume, thereby (you hope again!) raising the pressure back to normal. At =   least, that's a theory!   A nifty winker scheme is one used by Aeolian-Skinner. They'd place a = wedge bellows inside the windchest and leave the bellows open to outside air. A =   spring inside the bellows would keep it in a middle position at normal pressure. If the chest pressure dropped suddenly (big chord), then the bellows would *open*, thereby reducing the volume of the chest. A neat feature is that you can adjust these things with the wind on; you remove a =   cover plate (that has a 1"-ish hole to open the bellows interior to atmospheric pressure) and just reach in and move the spring. You can also =   fit the 1" hole with a valve that *shuts* when you turn on the tremulant, so that the winker doesn't (wink).   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Winkers/windline size /was Formulas From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:22:24 -0400   Thanks Larry. That is basically how I perceived the things worked. I realize they can't take care of large pressure fluctuations and volume requirements, but I thought that they could help and smooth out the "springiness" in the wind supply if the line is a bit too long. My Great chest will be hanging out away from the wall, above part of the dining room table, and open underneath. I will need to place my regulator against one end of the chest rather than underneath. I questioned my friend Rich Schneider about this, as I got most of my parts from him. He also mentioned that if there was a problem, a winker should take care of it.   Thanks, Eric       At 1:49 PM -0400 4/3/01, Larry Chace wrote: >Winkers act more like a variable volume than like a regulator. That >is, they can change shape (volume) but they cannot change the wind >pressure. They are capacitors, not voltage regulators! > >A momentary pulse of higher pressure will cause the winker to >increase its volume, thereby (you hope!) letting the high pressure >pulse dissipate. A momentary pulse of lower pressure will cause the >winder to decrease its volume, thereby (you hope again!) raising the >pressure back to normal. At least, that's a theory! > >A nifty winker scheme.......    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Formulas and Formulae From: <DLShuker@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:34:51 EDT   Dear All,   Could someone remind me how to unsubscribe from the residence organ list?- =   it's been great fun but I just don't have the time to read all the = messages.   Thanks,   David Shuker Thurnby Leicestershire, UK  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Formulas and Formulae (are few a far between) From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:12:42 EDT   Al:   What's the difference between a reservoir and a regulator?   Tom  
(back) Subject: Re: Reservoir vs. Regulator & Winker vs. Book Regulator From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:22:27 EDT   In a message dated 4/3/01 3:13:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = Tspiggle@aol.com writes: << > What's the difference between a reservoir and a regulator? > Tom >>   In days of old the wind was pumped up from bellows and stored in valveless =   reservoirs where weights could be put on top or the top itself would be = heavy enough for gravity to pull it down and exhaust the wind into the organ mechanism. With the advent of electric blowing apparatus that virtually supplies on demand, the reservoir was not needed but a new beast had to be =   invented to keep the electric blower from overblowing the organ. The regulator was born. As the regulator would rise with increasing pressure valves would close to the blower. If the organ played a large chord the = top of the regulator would fall admitting more wind. Springs proved to be = better than gravity and the modern regulator was born.   As Larry points out a winker (concussion bellow) is analogeous to a = capacitor in a circuit. It is a large book type pneumatic that when in a quiescent state should be half open and half closed. A drop in wind lets the spring =   close it while a pressure pulse makes it open more. They do have their places in organbuilding but nothing can take the place of a nearby = regulator to keep the wind solid. Many winkers have been used on shutters and other =   power pneumatics to steady the wind during a big draw. Console = combination actions are prime places to use winkers. However, placed incorrectly near = a chest it can actually make chord sags worse by lengthening the wind catch = up time from the regulator where a line is simply too long and too small. = The book regulator is a winker fitted with a valve on the high pressure side = of a blower line. It is used for shutters, traps, percussions, console = actions, relays and switches, etc. but even finds itself being put to work on ranks =   that are separated out from being tremmed. I know of a very naughty = trumpet stop in a public instrument that is on a book regulator so it won't ever = be tremmed. If you remember Tiny James use of the tremmed English Horn on = the SF FOX recordings you will know why!   Well, back to watching glue set up............   Al Sefl Who loves horses for the glue they give..............  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: What size regulators and WPs? From: "paul" <paulkruger@flashcom.net> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:22:20 -0700   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C0BC73.6795B7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   To Al Sefi=3D20 Have Wurlitzer needs lots of work ,when do you begin ,stop, will feed =3D stop ,will house,stop ,ready to go stop ,that should call your bluff . =3D have a happy day=3D20 Paul Kruger ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Jon Calvo=3D20 To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: What size regulators and WPs?     hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes etc I have found an EP = =3D chime action " Split " I have been told that it works on in of WP dose =3D this seem possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 horse Spencer = =3D blower that is running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would this =3D enable any of the other organ from working=3D20 thanks John C   >>> TheGluePot@aol.com 04/03/01 11:36AM >>>=3D20 In a message dated 4/3/01 7:35:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,=3D20 burnsjr@prodigy.net writes:=3D20 << Al,=3D20 > Could you comment on:=3D20 > 1. What size (if any) regulator is needed for various tonal =3D percussions on a=3D20 > Wurlitzer TPO, and what WP range is optimal for these.=3D20   Unlike pipes, percussions and traps just use a small bit of air in one = =3D shot.=3D20 If you do the math for a pneumatic you find little wind is used. A =3D pneumatic=3D20 of 1.25" width and 6" length with a span of 1.5" uses just 5.63 = cubic=3D20 *inches* of wind! That is virtually nothing so a book regulator =3D (winker with=3D20 a valve) can handle these easily. Add to that the fact that simple =3D inflate=3D20 pneumatics work over a wide range with the percussion note still =3D playing just=3D20 fine and you see why cheaper "winker" type regulators were used by =3D Wurlitzer=3D20 for percussions and traps. If you really wanted to be fancy, a full=3D20 regulator of even the smallest size would work well. I once computed =3D that a=3D20 set of chimes playing a melody would use just 2 CFM.=3D20   > 2. Any regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP there?=3D20   On many of the original installations there was no regulator on the =3D shades at=3D20 all. Full static on shades or percussions is not a good idea. Today to = =3D keep=3D20 the shades from jumping open on high wind pressures and straining = the=3D20 hardware (it is not unusual for connecting rods and pins to break) = a=3D20 regulator of any type that will deliver 12" is considered just fine. I = =3D have=3D20 one client who did not have studio shutters and complained that they =3D were too=3D20 noisy so we lowered the operating pressure to 10" which slowed the =3D shutter=3D20 opening speed just enough to quiet them down to his tastes.=3D20   > 3. What regulator, WP for toy counter and other toys.=3D20   I personally like 10" to 12" for speed and gentleness of the actions. = =3D A few=3D20 actions like the "grandfather chime" (Wurlitzer church bell on the FOX = =3D   specials) like to have 15"WP but then again it is pushing around a 4 =3D pound=3D20 metal hammer to strike the chime. A simple small book regulator will =3D work=3D20 just fine for traps.=3D20   > 4. Where is the best place for a wind/surf machine (I realize this =3D may have=3D20 no general answer).=3D20   There is a reason the surf machine and sand block machines are mounted = =3D on a=3D20 large windtrunk connected to raw static wind. In effect they are = huge=3D20 controlled leaks. When operated they just dump all the air that will =3D go=3D20 through them through the slot and across the tin plate for the rushing = =3D sound.=3D20 The windtrunk that has the best wind supply nearest to the blower line = =3D into=3D20 the chamber is my choice unless it is buried behind everything in the = =3D chamber.=3D20   > I would have asked these questions on Theatreorgans-L, but I got =3D second=3D20 > degree burns on the fingers of my right hand when I opened that =3D folder in=3D20 > Outlook yesterday.=3D20   What folder? My delete keys need replacement regularly from overuse =3D and I=3D20 must have missed that one! Most non-technical flame-war threads go =3D direct to=3D20 my store of extra electrons located on the bottom DRAM chip in my =3D computer=3D20 where they seem to fall and get captured for recycling. ;-)=3D20   > Thanks,=3D20 > John=3D20 >>=3D20   Al Sefl=3D20 Will build organs for food........ but work on Wurlitzers for =3D free.........=3D20 The devil makes me do it.........=3D20   DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20       ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C0BC73.6795B7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: = =3D 2px"=3D20 bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3D4>To Al&nbsp; = Sefi=3D20 </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D3D4>Have Wurlitzer needs = =3D lots of work=3D20 ,when do you begin ,stop, will feed stop ,will house,stop ,ready to go =3D stop=3D20 ,that should call your bluff . have a happy day </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Paul Kruger</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Djcalvo@mail.state.tn.us =3D href=3D3D"mailto:jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us">Jon=3D20 Calvo</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org</A> = =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 03, 2001 = =3D 9:46=3D20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] Re: = =3D What size=3D20 regulators and WPs?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>hey Guys talking about wind pressure and chimes = =3D etc I have=3D20 found an EP chime action " Split " I have been told that it works on =3D in of WP=3D20 dose this seem possible my organ at home is on 3-5 I have a 1/3 horse = =3D Spencer=3D20 blower that is running 5 ranks if I got this chime action would this =3D enable=3D20 any of the other organ from working </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>thanks</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>John C</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:TheGluePot@aol.com">TheGluePot@aol.com</A> 04/03/01 =3D 11:36AM=3D20 &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>In a message dated 4/3/01 7:35:01 AM Pacific Daylight = =3D Time,=3D20 <BR><U><A =3D href=3D3D"mailto:burnsjr@prodigy.net">burnsjr@prodigy.net</A></U>=3D20 writes: <BR>&lt;&lt; Al, <BR>&gt; Could you comment on: <BR>&gt; 1. =3D What size=3D20 (if any) regulator is needed for various tonal percussions on a =3D <BR>&gt;=3D20 Wurlitzer TPO, and what WP range is optimal for these. <BR><BR>Unlike = =3D pipes,=3D20 percussions and traps just use a small bit of air in one shot. <BR>If = =3D you do=3D20 the math for a pneumatic you find little wind is used. A pneumatic =3D <BR>of=3D20 1.25" width and 6" length with a span of 1.5" uses just 5.63 cubic=3D20 <BR>*inches* of wind! That is virtually nothing so a book regulator =3D (winker=3D20 with <BR>a valve) can handle these easily. Add to that the fact that =3D simple=3D20 inflate <BR>pneumatics work over a wide range with the percussion note = =3D still=3D20 playing just <BR>fine and you see why cheaper "winker" type regulators = =3D were=3D20 used by Wurlitzer <BR>for percussions and traps. If you really wanted = =3D to be=3D20 fancy, a full <BR>regulator of even the smallest size would work well. = =3D I once=3D20 computed that a <BR>set of chimes playing a melody would use just 2 =3D CFM.=3D20 <BR><BR>&gt; 2. Any regulator needed for the swell shades, and what WP = =3D there?=3D20 <BR><BR>On many of the original installations there was no regulator =3D on the=3D20 shades at <BR>all. Full static on shades or percussions is not a good = =3D idea.=3D20 Today to keep <BR>the shades from jumping open on high wind pressures = =3D and=3D20 straining the <BR>hardware (it is not unusual for connecting rods and = =3D pins to=3D20 break) a <BR>regulator of any type that will deliver 12" is considered = =3D just=3D20 fine. I have <BR>one client who did not have studio shutters and =3D complained=3D20 that they were too <BR>noisy so we lowered the operating pressure to =3D 10" which=3D20 slowed the shutter <BR>opening speed just enough to quiet them down to = =3D his=3D20 tastes. <BR><BR>&gt; 3. What regulator, WP for toy counter and other =3D toys.=3D20 <BR><BR>I personally like 10" to 12" for speed and gentleness of the =3D actions.=3D20 A few <BR>actions like the "grandfather chime" (Wurlitzer church bell = =3D on the=3D20 FOX <BR>specials) like to have 15"WP but then again it is pushing =3D around a 4=3D20 pound <BR>metal hammer to strike the chime. A simple small book =3D regulator will=3D20 work <BR>just fine for traps. <BR><BR>&gt; 4. Where is the best place = =3D for a=3D20 wind/surf machine (I realize this may have <BR>no general answer).=3D20 <BR><BR>There is a reason the surf machine and sand block machines are = =3D mounted=3D20 on a <BR>large windtrunk connected to raw static wind. In effect they = =3D are huge=3D20 <BR>controlled leaks. When operated they just dump all the air that =3D will go=3D20 <BR>through them through the slot and across the tin plate for the =3D rushing=3D20 sound. <BR>The windtrunk that has the best wind supply nearest to the = =3D blower=3D20 line into <BR>the chamber is my choice unless it is buried behind =3D everything=3D20 in the chamber. <BR><BR>&gt; I would have asked these questions on=3D20 Theatreorgans-L, but I got second <BR>&gt; degree burns on the fingers = =3D of my=3D20 right hand when I opened that folder in <BR>&gt; Outlook yesterday.=3D20 <BR><BR>What folder? My delete keys need replacement regularly from =3D overuse=3D20 and I <BR>must have missed that one! Most non-technical flame-war =3D threads go=3D20 direct to <BR>my store of extra electrons located on the bottom DRAM =3D chip in=3D20 my computer <BR>where they seem to fall and get captured for =3D recycling. ;-)=3D20 <BR><BR>&gt; Thanks, <BR>&gt; John <BR>&gt;&gt; <BR><BR>Al Sefl =3D <BR>Will build=3D20 organs for food........ but work on Wurlitzers for free......... =3D <BR>The devil=3D20 makes me do it......... <BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for =3D owners and=3D20 builders of their own <BR>Residence Pipe Organs. <BR>HOMEPAGE : = <U><A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= =3D ..org</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= =3D /A></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= =3D hat.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C0BC73.6795B7E0--    
(back) Subject: Winker vs. Concussion Bellows ( was Re: What size regulators and WPs?) From: "John Burns" <burnsjr@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:49:13 -0400   Al,   Thanks for those comments. Great explanations.   Regarding the title of this post; there was, quite a while back on one of the lists, a sort of semantics discussion regarding what names to use. I notice that in the OSI catalogue (page 2-3 in my edition), they refer to = the device that I usually hear called a Winker as a "Wurlitzer Equalizer." It has both compass springs and a cone valve. On page 2-7 they advertise concussion bellows, and in the text seem to imply that the terms = "concussion bellows" and "Winker" are synonymous. And just to add more confusion, they have advertised, at the bottom of that page, a "Concussion Bellows, Tunable." All of them have some sort of spring.   Gotta Love Those Words, John   -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of TheGluePot@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 12:36 PM To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: What size regulators and WPs?