DIYAPASON-L Digest #362 - Sunday, August 5, 2001
 
Glues: Which is better?
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Glues: Which is better?
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
More on Glues: Which is better?
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Glues: Which is better? From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:58:50 -0500   I have been following this thread with interest as of late.   I wanted to report some problems which I have been having with the Fish Glue that many seem to think serves as a "worthy" substitute to hot hide glue.   I recently returned from an extremely frustrating week in north central Indiana where we are installing a sizable pipe organ. This instrument has a number of single and tandem primary Pouch Pneumatics for the larger Electro-Pneumatic windchests. These were covered by another builder using the Fish glue and we have found a large number of failures in the form of the pouches blowing off the pouch blocks on those which were glued with the Fish Glue.   We have built a number of pouch blocks ourselves which had the same kind of leather and Pouch Block material (raw Poplar), so the only difference we can determine there to be between the construction of the ones we "inherited" when we took over the job and what we're building ourselves now is the type of glue used.   I can also report that the temperature in the organ chambers on this job was probably in excess of 100 degrees and saturation level humidity.   While the church membership has now voted to air condition the facility, that won't help right now, and I'm greatly concerned about the possibilities of Callbacks to re-leather an even greater number of Primaries than those which have already failed.   Our thinking at this time is that in order to avoid the embarrassment and expense of making a 5 hour trip back to the jobsite when all is said and done and have to go through a replacement anyway, we're going to elect to recover all of them we "inherited" just as a precaution.   So far as I know: there have been no problems with anything that has been glued together using the hot hide glue. All of the Pouch pneumatics for the pipe valves were glued on with hot glue and show no evidence of failure.   Based on these failures, we have determined that we will no longer be taking any chances by using Fish Glue to substitute for the tried-and-true Hot Hide Glue.   I'd be appreciative of hearing from anyone else who may have any similar experiences to mine.   Faithfully, Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Glues: Which is better? From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 16:52:49 EDT     In a message dated 8/5/01 1:56:43 PM, arpschneider@starband.net writes:   >Based on these failures, we have determined that we will no longer be >taking any chances by using Fish Glue to substitute for the >tried-and-true Hot Hide Glue. > >I'd be appreciative of hearing from anyone else who may have any similar >experiences to mine. > >Faithfully,   Frankly I tried the cold liquid hyde glue a couple of years ago I guess because I was intimidated by the idea of having to, I thought precisely = hold the glue at a certain degree and then not have but seconds to clamp up. = Both turned out not to be the case.   The cold liquid hyde glue was horrid, it takes something like overnight to =   set up and your work can skate or move before then. Once I learned how the hot hyde glue works I was sold on it :)   Is it possible Richard that whomever leathered those failing pouches neglected to ensure there was no lacquer or somesuch where the glue was to = be applied? I've seen a lot of shoddy stuff out there but it wouldn't surprise me if someone lacquered, stained, waxed oiled or sealed the wood, and THEN glued =   the pouches on! The hyde glue absolutely will not stick to wood that has any lacquer, = sealer or finish on it.   Totally unrelated, has anyone heard of Bernard Higgens? I think he was = with Austin. It seems he reinstalled the rebuilt organ in 1989 I think, at the now demolished St Vibiana in Los Angeles over a 10 week period. I found a "Bernard Higgens time capsule" inside one of the reservoirs. It was a = large bundle of popular science, car and driver etc magazines, a parking ticket = and a note saying he was 68, installed bunches of organs for like 30 years = etc., wrapped up in a black plastic garbage bag, all taped up and shoved inside = the Great reservoir!   Anyone find some interesting items in organs like this, coins, photos or = the like glued in? I was repairing some old wood pipes at work, and noticed one of the pipes = had a page from a newspaper glued in under the glue inside the pipe. It was a german language paper in the old gothic style font. The organ was from = about 1898. Sure would be neat to find some old indian head cents or a photo of = the guys in the shop pasted inside a chest or something.       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: More on Glues: Which is better? From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:14:48 -0500   Randy <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> wrote: > Frankly I tried the cold liquid hyde glue a couple of years ago I guess > because I was intimidated by the idea of having to, I thought precisely = hold > the glue at a certain degree and then not have but seconds to clamp up. = Both > turned out not to be the case.   Important point to correct: Liquid Hide glue is NOT the same thing as the Fish Glue to which I referred. They are not at all the same thing. I agree with Randy that Liquid Hide Glue is horrible. <Snip>   > Is it possible Richard that whomever leathered those failing pouches > neglected to ensure there was no lacquer or somesuch where the glue was = to be > applied? > I've seen a lot of shoddy stuff out there but it wouldn't surprise me if > someone lacquered, stained, waxed oiled or sealed the wood, and THEN = glued > the pouches on!   Nope. These pouch blocks were raw wood. The person who did this would have been too lazy/unambitious to seal the wood. He is a professionally trained organbuilder (having worked with Goulding & Wood, amongst others) and he wouldn't certainly have bothered to put on finish on a part that wasn't seen.   Unfortunately, he didn't often bother to put finish on parts that people DO see, either. One of his favorite methods of cost-cutting! Moreover, we had a number of blank Primary Pouch Blocks he had made that were not leathered, which we completed with the hot hide glue that did not fail, so we're back to the common failure point of the FISH Glue being the suspected culprit.   > The hyde glue absolutely will not stick to wood that has any lacquer, = sealer > or finish on it.   This also happened to the fibre disks inside the Primary Pouch pneumatics, and I KNOW they had no finish applied to them. Again, remember: we're talking about FISH GLUE here, NOT LIQUID HIDE GLUE!!   Thanks for sharing, though.   Another major concern is some Reservoirs for this job which I'm sure were also re-covered using the Fish Glue. It'll be interesting to see if/when these fail. I hope/pray not, because we're providing a WARRANTY to this project!   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL