DIYAPASON-L Digest #457 - Monday, December 10, 2001
 
Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question
  by "Dave McClellan" <deep_tremolo@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question
  by "atos" <atos@stirlingprop.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing  Question
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater SizingQuestion
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater SizingQuestion
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Blower Motor Protection Heater  SizingQuestion
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
More on Heaters and Starter Definitions (LONG!).
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: Orgaflex and flanges
  by <Jess4203@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question From: "Dave McClellan" <deep_tremolo@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:30:59 -0500   I have acquired a 1HP Spencer blower with Century repulsion motor for my residence instrument. It came with an Allen-Bradley control box. The instrument was removed from a church and was originally installed by an professional organ builder. The heaters that were installed were size = W56, which I think are rated at about 11 amps or so, full load (I don't have = the box with me at the moment). But the full load current of the motor is = only 5.6 amps at 220 volts, and about 12 amps at 110 volts. I would have = though from reading AB literature that the protection heaters should be rated = very closely to the motor full load current (yes, I know there are some compensation factors involved).   A second blower from the same organ was also a Spencer, and was at least = two horse, maybe 3hp, single phase. The control box for that blower had W62 heaters, rated at 14+ amps full load.   What am I missing here? Both boxes seem to have heaters much larger than needed, thus failing to offer any real protection.   One other question: neither blower was "grounded". I measured >40meg from =   hot to frame on my Century motor. So I chose to connect the ground (bare) =   to the motor frame for protection. I did NOT connect a neutral to the CENTER two wires that are connected together for 240 volt operation.   Thanks, Dave McClellan Confused ....       _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:39:40 -0600   Dave McClellan wrote: > I have acquired a 1HP Spencer blower with Century repulsion motor for my > residence instrument. It came with an Allen-Bradley control box. The > instrument was removed from a church and was originally installed by an > professional organ builder. The heaters that were installed were size = W56, > which I think are rated at about 11 amps or so, full load (I don't have = the > box with me at the moment). But the full load current of the motor is = only > 5.6 amps at 220 volts, and about 12 amps at 110 volts. I would have = though > from reading AB literature that the protection heaters should be rated = very > closely to the motor full load current (yes, I know there are some > compensation factors involved).   That's correct. > A second blower <snipped as not pertanent to your situation>   > What am I missing here? Both boxes seem to have heaters much larger = than > needed, thus failing to offer any real protection.   Probably a case of very lazy electricians! I'm sure that the organbuilders didn't install the Magnetic Starters or sized the heater Elements. Maybe they were told to expect something larger than what actually arrived and no one thought about re-sizing the Heater Elements after the installation is complete. It's a wonder the building didn't burn down or the motor burn out!   Allen-Bradley Heater elements are still the same and you can obtain a set closer to the specifications from a quality electrical distributor. > One other question: neither blower was "grounded". I measured >40meg = from > hot to frame on my Century motor. So I chose to connect the ground = (bare) > to the motor frame for protection. I did NOT connect a neutral to the > CENTER two wires that are connected together for 240 volt operation.   So, the blower IS running on 240 Volts, in which case, the Heater Elements are VERY much over-sized. You might borrow an Amprobe Ammeter that you can clip around the motor leads and fire up the beast and do a current test to see how much current the motor is actually drawing. Then you can check the inside cover of the Magnetic Starter, which usually has the sizes of the heater elements listed, based on a range of amperages and the corresponding "W" Stock number. Go get the right ones and put the others away in the drawer for another day (or starter!)   Hope this helps!   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question From: "atos" <atos@stirlingprop.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:35:28 -0600   I am sure you will get a lot of different opinions on your question. I am = an electrical contractor with 30 years experience so my answer is not without some experience and training. Motors have a name plate rating and a duty factor percentage. The name plate FLA (full load amps) is the maximum the motor should be allowed to draw. On newer motors, there is a safety margin built in which is the duty factor. If your motor has a FLA of let's say 10 amps, and a duty factor of 1.0, your heaters should be sized for 10 amps. = If the duty factor is 1.10, then you could draw 10 amps plus 10% over that, = or 11 amps. Heaters already compensate for inrush current so you do not need = to allow for starting surge when you size the heater. If you go to an Allen Bradley dealer, or look on AB's webpage, match the heaters to the = full-load motor amps and you will be safe. The heaters you are describing are dangerously over-rated.   -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Dave McClellan Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:31 AM To: diyapason-l@pipechat.org Subject: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question     I have acquired a 1HP Spencer blower with Century repulsion motor for my residence instrument. It came with an Allen-Bradley control box. The instrument was removed from a church and was originally installed by an professional organ builder. The heaters that were installed were size = W56, which I think are rated at about 11 amps or so, full load (I don't have = the box with me at the moment). But the full load current of the motor is = only 5.6 amps at 220 volts, and about 12 amps at 110 volts. I would have = though from reading AB literature that the protection heaters should be rated = very closely to the motor full load current (yes, I know there are some compensation factors involved).   A second blower from the same organ was also a Spencer, and was at least = two horse, maybe 3hp, single phase. The control box for that blower had W62 heaters, rated at 14+ amps full load.   What am I missing here? Both boxes seem to have heaters much larger than needed, thus failing to offer any real protection.   One other question: neither blower was "grounded". I measured >40meg from hot to frame on my Century motor. So I chose to connect the ground (bare) to the motor frame for protection. I did NOT connect a neutral to the CENTER two wires that are connected together for 240 volt operation.   Thanks, Dave McClellan Confused ....       _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater Sizing Question From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:24:06 -0500   Richard Schneider wrote:     > You might borrow an Amprobe Ammeter >that you can clip around the motor leads and fire up the beast and do a >current test to see how much current the motor is actually drawing. >Then you can check the inside cover of the Magnetic Starter, which >usually has the sizes of the heater elements listed, based on a range of >amperages and the corresponding "W" Stock number. Go get the right >ones and put the others away in the drawer for another day (or starter!)   Good idea Rich but wouldn't the blower need to be loaded to produce its rated CFM and WP to get an accurate full load motor current reading? At least on my Spencer if the outlet is blocked then the motor draws quite a bit less than it's full load current as the blower isn't moving any air. With the outlet wide open and the inlet unrestricted the motor overloads = at about twice the normal FL current. Just a thought my friend.   Eric     >Hope this helps! > >Faithfully, > >Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO >SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater SizingQuestion From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:52:33 -0800   The Schneider Family wrote: > ... Probably a case of very lazy electricians! I'm sure that the > organbuilders didn't install the Magnetic Starters or sized the > heater Elements. > ...   Well. I learned about the existence of Starters barely more than a year ago, and now I find there are also "heaters." What else might be involved in blower lore, that hasn't come to light yet? I'd like to read a bit more on "heaters" as used in blowers - or is it in starters that they are used? How do they fit into the picture, re circuit breakers?   Also, re "Magnetic" starters - does that imply more than one type of starter?   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater SizingQuestion From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:48:58 EST     In a message dated 12/10/01 5:53:20 PM, mach37@mindspring.com writes:   > >Well. I learned about the existence of Starters barely more than a year >ago, and now I find there are also "heaters." What else might be >involved in blower lore, that hasn't come to light yet? I'd like to >read a bit more on "heaters" as used in blowers - or is it in starters >that they are used? How do they fit into the picture, re circuit >breakers? > >Also, re "Magnetic" starters - does that imply more than one type of >starter? > >Mac Hayes     Yeah I second that, I never heard of "heaters" before this list, I only = know the starter is connected to the on/off switch at the console so the = magnetic coil circuit is just a low draw, and the contacts in the starter pulled = by the magnet coil is what actually makes the connection to the 220v and the heavy wires to the motor.   Essentially a relay.   Before the starter would be circuit breakers or fuses for the motor lines = and another for the on/off switch circuit.   My 2HP century motor plate says; 110/220 and 25/12.5 amps it is on 220v and #8 wire, only about 12 feet from the main house = breaker panel, with dual 40 amp square D breakers.   Between this and the starter, is a Square D safety disconnect box rated at = 30 amps, it has (2) 20 amp cartridge fuses in it.   I have run the motor a few times fully open and the 20 amp fuses held fine =   even during starting. I could probably drop the main breakers down to 20 = amp.   This seem like a workable setup?           Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Blower Motor Protection Heater SizingQuestion From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:24:07 -0800   At 03:52 PM 12/10/01 -0800, Mac Hayes wrote: >I'd like to >read a bit more on "heaters" as used in blowers - or is it in starters >that they are used? How do they fit into the picture, re circuit >breakers? > >Also, re "Magnetic" starters - does that imply more than one type of >starter?   All of the above are part of a normal electrically driven pipe organ. The circuit breaker limits total 'branch' (the individual blower motor in this case) maximum current. Usually, it is rated much higher than the total current of the motor. It is a 'fast trip' type of switch, which will turn off if total current is exceeded. The 'heaters' are 'slow-trip' breakers which will allow the motor to exceed its rated running current for a short time, as in starting or when a heavy demand is made on the blower. If the heavy load stays there too long, the heaters will cause the motor starter to trip. The 'magnetic starter' is simply a magnetically-operated relay = to allow the blower motor to be started from a remote location without having to make the heavy motor supply leads too long. Usually, the starter is located within about 10' of the motor. It's control leads may be as long as necessary. If I have left anything out or (as is usual) not made myself clear, please let me know.   Bob, who is also a retired electrician  
(back) Subject: More on Heaters and Starter Definitions (LONG!). From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:35:22 -0600   Mac Hayes wrote: > Well. I learned about the existence of Starters barely more than a year > ago, and now I find there are also "heaters." What else might be > involved in blower lore, that hasn't come to light yet? I'd like to > read a bit more on "heaters" as used in blowers - or is it in starters > that they are used? How do they fit into the picture, re circuit > breakers?   The "heaters" are a thermo device inside the Magnetic Starter which is designed to operate within a very small "band" of temperature tolerance. The purpose in doing so is that if the blower is somehow overloaded or stalled, then the motor will draw more current than normal, and thus causing the thermal protection linkage inside the Starter to disconnect. This is what difference a "Starter" from a Relay -the addition of the Thermal Relay portion, which is installed beneath the relay in the same enclosure. > Also, re "Magnetic" starters - does that imply more than one type of > starter?   In the olden days, large HP motors required "staged" starting before electrical utilities had sufficient current on their electrical grids to handle the inrush current of "across-the-line" starting of these behemoths. There were huge boxes adjacent to the motors with large levers and a series of "notches" that this lever was designed to be placed into in succession.   Each of these positions, except the last had a series of resistors, designed to limit this inrush current would be introduced . As the motor reached a certain R.P.M., the manual starter mechanism would be "shifted" forward, almost like a manual transmission, into less and less resistance until finally the motor reached its rated speed and the resistance across the circuit was eliminated altogether.   It is quite an experience to start one of these old monsters. They were mostly found in either rural installations far from the generating plant or on the older D.C. Municipal systems which existed in the early days of distributed electrical systems. Quite unlike nowadays where the organist merely pushes a button, waits a second or two for the wind to come up, and begins to play!   Randall P. <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> wrote:   > Yeah I second that, I never heard of "heaters" before this list, I > only know the starter is connected to the on/off switch at the console   <SNIP>   > Essentially a relay.   Perhaps, but missing a very essential ingredient: running overcurrent protection!   > My 2HP century motor plate says; 110/220 and 25/12.5 amps > it is on 220v and #8 wire, only about 12 feet from the main house > breaker > panel, with dual 40 amp square D breakers.   The National Electric Code prescribes just how "overfused" a motor is allowed to be, in order to handle inrush. I don't have my code book in front of me, so I can't recite chapter and verse, or what that value should be. I can look it up if anyone really wants to know for a specific application.   > Between this and the starter, is a Square D safety disconnect box > rated at 30 amps, it has (2) 20 amp cartridge fuses in it.   With regards to Randall's installation: If 20 amp fuses are able to carry the inrush current of the blower to start, then the circuit breakers certainly ought to be reduced to 20 Amps; certainly no more than 30 amps, because currently, the disconnect switch he describes could be potentially handling an overload of 25% before the Breakers tripped!!   > I have run the motor a few times fully open and the 20 amp fuses held > = fine even during starting. I could probably drop the main breakers > down = to 20 amp.   Unless you plan to "upgrade" the "One Armed Bandit" (Disconnect) to a 60 Amp model, then you really MUST de-rate those breakers in the main panel!   Nothing wrong with #8 wire.   And, of course, be sure everything is GROUNDED!     > This seem like a workable setup?   The only thing missing from this set-up is the magnetic starter with the heater elements carefully sized for the blower in question. It'll set you back a couple hundred bucks for a good Allen-Bradley Magnetic Starter (the ONLY brand anyone should consider using!!) but hey; that's a LOT cheaper than replacing a house that burned down because the motor got hot and the power never shut itself off!     - - - - -   I want to take this opportunity to stress to everyone on this list who is doing their own wiring: if you have ANY doubts as to your abilities, call in a Licensed Electrical Contractor to look over or (if your jurisdiction requires it) DO the wiring for you. It will save you many headaches and the possibility of losing your fire insurance if anyone finds out you "jury-rigged" something and did it wrong, especially if your house burns down.   Electricity is not to be fooled around with, even though we all know that God *does* protect fools!   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: Orgaflex and flanges From: <Jess4203@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:34:38 EST     --part1_11a.8931e29.2946cabe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi group:   I am progressing slowly on the organ. Mainly I have cleaned some things = and tried to make sense of the numbers/lack thereof on the rackboard of the = main chest. More cleaning and placing of pipes soon to try to reclaim the = couch in the living room!   I have some questions regarding my 24 low 16 Bourdon pipes. All have = their toes plugged and holes drilled in their caps or their backs to be = off-tubed. Orgalflex has been suggested as a tubing material. I would like to be = able to remove at least one end of the tubing in case the organ has to be = moved, in which case these pipes will have to be removed. Some of the pipes have = a bare hole and some have a small square piece of wood screwed to the pipe where the hole is drilled, the hole going thru both the pipe and the = square. Similarly, some of the holes in the chest are bare and some have the same square piece of wood. Can anyone suggest what arrangements to make for flanges for these pipes? I guess that flanges would allow the pipes to be =   detached without having to cut the (glued in) orgaflex. Would flanges be available from OSI as the orgaflex is? Or should I look elsewhere for = this stuff?   TIA, Roy   --part1_11a.8931e29.2946cabe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi group: <BR> <BR>I am progressing slowly on the organ. &nbsp;Mainly I have cleaned some = things and tried to make sense of the numbers/lack thereof on the = rackboard of the main chest. &nbsp;More cleaning and placing of pipes soon = to try to reclaim the couch in the living room! <BR> <BR>I have some questions regarding my 24 low 16 Bourdon pipes. &nbsp;All = have their toes plugged and holes drilled in their caps or their backs to = be off-tubed. &nbsp;Orgalflex has been suggested as a tubing material. = &nbsp;I would like to be able to remove at least one end of the tubing in = case the organ has to be moved, in which case these pipes will have to be = removed. &nbsp;Some of the pipes have a bare hole and some have a small = square piece of wood screwed to the pipe where the hole is drilled, the = hole going thru both the pipe and the square. &nbsp;Similarly, some of the = holes in the chest are bare and some have the same square piece of wood. = &nbsp;Can anyone suggest what arrangements to make for flanges for these = pipes? &nbsp;I guess that flanges would allow the pipes to be detached = without having to cut the (glued in) orgaflex. &nbsp;Would flanges be = available from OSI as the orgaflex is? &nbsp;Or should I look elsewhere = for this stuff? <BR> <BR>TIA, <BR>Roy</FONT></HTML>   --part1_11a.8931e29.2946cabe_boundary--