DIYAPASON-L Digest #458 - Tuesday, December 11, 2001
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  More on Heaters and Starter Definitions (LONG!).
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
DVA releathering
  by "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org>
Re: [Residence Organs]  DVA releathering
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Orgaflex and flanges
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  More on Heaters and Starter  Definitions (LONG!).
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Orgaflex and flanges
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Orgaflex and flanges
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Addenda:  More on Heaters and Starter  Definitions
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Addenda:  More on Heaters and Starter  Definition
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Addenda:  More on Heaters and Starter Definitions
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] More on Heaters and Starter Definitions (LONG!). From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:35:45 EST     In a message dated 12/10/01 8:33:13 PM, arpschneider@starband.net writes:     >> Essentially a relay.   >Perhaps, but missing a very essential ingredient: running overcurrent >protection!   Richard, I thought that's what fuses and circuit breakers were designed = for!     >> My 2HP century motor plate says; 110/220 and 25/12.5 amps > > it is on 220v and #8 wire, only about 12 feet from the main house > >breaker >> panel, with dual 40 amp square D breakers.   >The National Electric Code prescribes just how "overfused" a motor is >allowed to be, in order to handle inrush. I don't have my code book in >front of me, so I can't recite chapter and verse, or what that value >should be. I can look it up if anyone really wants to know for a >specific application.   I think I've heard with modern motors about 3 times the running current = is about what the motor draws briefly as it starts, but then I've read the = old repulsion motors don't draw as much starting up as modern motors.   >> Between this and the starter, is a Square D safety disconnect box >> rated at 30 amps, it has (2) 20 amp cartridge fuses in it.   >With regards to Randall's installation: If 20 amp fuses are able to >carry the inrush current of the blower to start, then the circuit >breakers certainly ought to be reduced to 20 Amps   Agree with ya on that Richard.   >Nothing wrong with #8 wire.   I was going to go with #6 but saw from the ampacity charts the 8 was more than fine and the #6 was nearly twice the price.   >And, of course, be sure everything is GROUNDED!   Yep, did that.   >> This seem like a workable setup?   >The only thing missing from this set-up is the magnetic starter with >the heater elements carefully sized for the blower in question.   It has a magnetic starter Richard, a Square D "Automatic Starter" and came =   from the original Moller installation. The unknown in it is the heater = size, the blower had been replaced in 1993 I believe with a 3 HP Baldor motor on = a Buffalo Forge blower unit. The original 9 rank Moller blower was likely to = be around 2HP too. They put the forge blower in but that was all, did not = appear to have changed wiring or starter etc.   >set you back a couple hundred bucks for a good Allen-Bradley Magnetic >Starter (the ONLY brand anyone should consider using!!) but hey; that's >a LOT cheaper than replacing a house that burned down because the motor >got hot and the power never shut itself off!   I still don't get the heater issue Richard, because the setup I have when = I change the main breakers would have two 20 amp breakers and two 20 amp = fuses for overload protection. That seems like more than enough especially since =   most everything in the home from lights to appliances only have one fuse = or circuit breaker.   My blower room in the basement has a poured concrete floor and two walls = are concrete, the starter, rectifier, etc are mounted on one of the other = walls on a 4'x4' sheet of 1/8th inch thick aluminum. I used flex conduit from = the starter to the motor. The ceiling and other two walls will have sheet = metal covering.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: DVA releathering From: "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:54:19 -0500   Hi,   I have 72 Reisner DVA's that need new and stronger pouch springs.   This is to correct an issue I posted some months ago regarding "rippling = and wheezing upon wind removal." It seems that the pouch springs in that vintage may have been on the weaker side and that the pouch doesn't stay fully closed during partial pressure conditions when the magnet armature = is still being pushed upwards towards the exhaust hole. I guess I'm at a = loss to know why Reisner would have designed a normally-open rather than normally-closed magnet! Anyway, when these DVA's work, they work well. So that's the target. I already put new and lighter-weight armatures in that...now for the pouch spring.   There is a metal ring that goes on top of the leather pouch at the periphery. The pouch has to be glued in place followed by pressing the = ring back in. All the while the pouch has to be pressed down to some extent = and held there while the glue is hardening.   Does anyone have suggestions regarding the sequence and fixturing of DVA's for pouch replacement?   Thanks.   Jon Fick        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] DVA releathering From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:34:47 EST   Hi all. I sent my DVA'S to Organ Supply for releathering. There are high pressure = and low pressure DVA'S, a spring is the difference I guess. Call the people at Organ Supply and sure they will tell you. They have = been very helpful when I call. Have fun. Dennis  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Orgaflex and flanges From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:32:13 EST     In a message dated 12/10/01 8:35:45 PM, Jess4203@aol.com writes:   > >bare hole and some have a small square piece of wood screwed to the pipe >where the hole is drilled, the hole going thru both the pipe and the = square. >Similarly, some of the holes in the chest are bare and some have the same >square piece of wood.   We call those hose blocks, and make them out of 3/4" apple ply or two = layers of 1/2" and drill a hole in each corner for screws, the underside gets = strips of villedon gasketing material. The hole that is drilled for the hose is drilled the diameter of the OD of =   the hose but not all the way thru the 3/4" of the plywood. We drill down = to within about 1/4", and then counter bore a smaller diameter hole from the other side that is smaller. That way the hose has a nice stop lip it seats = in against when inserted. We use clear sealer to hold the hose in.       >Can anyone suggest what arrangements to make for >flanges for these pipes? I guess that flanges would allow the pipes to >be detached without having to cut the (glued in) orgaflex.   Those blocks would have 4 screws and the block with the hose can be disconnected at any time, the warning is if you use villedon make sure the =   wood on one side or the other has no fresh lacquer on it or use paper = between the villedon and one side or the other because the lacquer seems to = slightly disolve the villedon and makes it stick like it was glued on.   For my own lines I used wood trunks I bult from laminated strips of = boards, and then goes to 4" PVC and then flex. I found the 4" PVC couplers perfectly fit over 4" orgaflex and has a nice internal stop lip and about 2" depth the flex can be inserted into. I also found the 3" PVC also fits the 3" flex nicely, I used clear sealer = and 3 screws to hold the hose in and bored/counterbored a plenum for (3) 3" = pvc couplers to insert snugly, and screwed those with 3 screws from the inside = at an angle. They look nice. The plenum has the 4" line going in the back, and (3) 3" lines out the = top going to 3 small offset pedal bourdon chests directly above it.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] More on Heaters and Starter Definitions (LONG!). From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:02:06 -0600   <sninp> >I still don't get the heater issue Richard, because the setup I have when = I >change the main breakers would have two 20 amp breakers and two 20 amp = fuses >for overload protection. That seems like more than enough especially = since >most everything in the home from lights to appliances only have one fuse = or >circuit breaker.   Hi, Randall --   Maybe this will clarify it a bit. Fuses and ckt breakers protect from sudden, catastrophic overcurrents. (a hot wire somewhere broke suddenly = and came to rest against a grounded part). A direct short circuit, if you will, or close to it.   The Heaters in a magnetic starter protect against *overload* protection -- the motor, for some reason, is working too hard, and gradually getting hotter and hotter and gradually trying to suck even more electricity than it should. The key word is "gradually". The heaters function as a slow-acting safety cutoff that can sense the gradually increasing current flow and cut it off entirely before everything melts down to the point where the fuses or ckt breakers would kick in.   Redundancy is a rather good idea with such things, I think...<g>!   Hope this helps --   Tim    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Orgaflex and flanges From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:42:41 -0600   Some of the pipes have a bare hole and some have a small square piece of wood screwed to the pipe where the hole is drilled, the hole going thru both the pipe and the square. Similarly, some of the holes in the chest are bare and some have the same square piece of wood. Can anyone suggest what arrangements to make for flanges for these pipes?   Roy   Those square blocks are what we call tubing blocks. Made out of 3/4" plywood with the hole in the center drilled for the outside diameter of the tubing. We put two screw holes in the opposite corners for attaching the block, lacquer it, and cork the whole bottom of it. We also make slides to go under the block out of thin but strong aluminum for adjusting the amount of wind going to a particular pipe. When we install the tubing we use at least a couple of wraps of gaffer's tape about the end of the tube to insure a tight fit and then use a drop or two of glue to hold the tube in place. By keeping the amount of glue to the minimum we can remove the tube if we need to, which is very unusual but it can be done. By using this method you don't need to worry about flanges and hose clamps plus the cost is lots less since you can make up the tubing blocks very easily yourself.   For tubing off pipes we use Orgaflex from OSI. It's easy to work with to get a nice bundle going from the action board/chest to the pipes and easy to cut with a good sharp knife while working in tight spaces in an organ.   Hope this helps.   David  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Orgaflex and flanges From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:22:53 EST     >Those square blocks are what we call tubing blocks.   Hey! we call 'em "hose blocks" here ;)   >For tubing off pipes we use Orgaflex from OSI. It's easy to work with >to get a nice bundle going from the action board/chest to the pipes >and easy to cut with a good sharp knife while working in tight spaces >in an organ.   I just rec'd the 25' coil I ordered of 4" orgaflex, do try to keep the = runs of this to a minimum, it has a slightly rough corrugated surface inside = but besides that it's not cheap! It may look like an inexpensive papery material, but the 4" stuff is = over $3 a foot, comes in 25' coils plus shipping. Anywhere you can run PVC the better. There are also a couple of different types, the heavy walled stuff and the =   thin walled DWV and the prices are about half for the thin as for the = other and for winding the organ you won't need worry about how many PSI or temperatures the stuff will take. The fittings have the biggest price difference, the 4" elbows and all in = the thin PVC ran about $1.99 but in the heavier stuff was closer to $5.99 or = more. I looked at some 6" stuff and holy cow! they only had the heavy stuff, and = a tee or elbow was close to $30 so for that and a couple of other reasons I decided to wind each 2 rank chest with it's own 4" line from the wood = trunk rather than two chests on one 6."         Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Addenda: More on Heaters and Starter Definitions From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:40:47 -0600   At 01:02 PM 12/11/01 -0600, I wrote:   >Redundancy is a rather good idea with such things, I think...<g>!   The sentences I should have included immediately before this one (in order to properly finish the thought I had when reading your original question):   Typical household electrical loads (even the heavy ones like elec range or A/C) do not require this third level of electrical protection. Large motors behave differently (electrically) than large heating elements (or numerous smaller motors). Thus, your central airconditioner is fine with its twin 40A breaker in the panel, but the organ blower drawing a = "similar" load is not. When household things overload, they tend to quit entirely. Organ blower motors can do other stuff first. Bad stuff.   Perhaps this adds to the confusion, but I hope not. That's what I get for trying to post to this list during my lunch hour...<lol>   All best to everyone --   Tim  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Addenda: More on Heaters and Starter Definitions From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:45:26 EST     In a message dated 12/11/01 7:40:55 PM, tmbovard@arkansas.net writes:   >At 01:02 PM 12/11/01 -0600, I wrote: > >>Redundancy is a rather good idea with such things, I think...<g>!     Well yeah! but I thought I was already pretty redundant with the circuit breakers and fuses.     >Maybe this will clarify it a bit. Fuses and ckt breakers protect from >sudden, catastrophic overcurrents. (a hot wire somewhere broke suddenly = and >came to rest against a grounded part). A direct short circuit, if you >will, or close to it.   >The Heaters in a magnetic starter protect against *overload* protection = -- >the motor, for some reason, is working too hard, and gradually getting >hotter and hotter and gradually trying to suck even more electricity than >it should. The key word is "gradually". The heaters function as a >slow-acting safety cutoff that can sense the gradually increasing current >flow and cut it off entirely before everything melts down to the point >where the fuses or ckt breakers would kick in.   Got it thanks! I went to Cutler Hammer since I had them bookmarked, found an interesting article on electrical fires and a new circuit breaker;   http://www.ch.cutler-hammer.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=3DC-H/Comm= on/As   setTemplateLink&c=3DApubarticles&cid=3D1005174130886&Sec=3Dhome     Richard Schneider suggests Allen-Bradley, which product Richard?   I found a few "soft starters" don't know if that is what you had in mind;   http://www.ab.com/industrialcontrols/products/soft_starters/index.html     Here is part of the specs regarding my motor and the current starter;     Century Repulsion Induction Built; 1927 Type; RS Single Phase Frame: P10B 2HP 1165 RPM 110-220 V 25/12.5 AMP   It has the following old starter of unknown age and heater size/specs = that was used for a similar Moller unit in another installation, maybe the = numbers will mean something to those here in the know;   Square D Automatic Starter Class 8502 Type: 50 amp 220v/60cy No. 260994 1038-S14-B60   Square D Industrial Controller Division     I have a photo of the blower on my web site; http://www.geocities.com/mpmoller/blower.jpg     Speaking of blowers, the electrician wired up the old St Vibiana now LA Cathedral's old orgoblow Century 10HP blower in our storage building = here so we could run test it, I fired it up briefly.... whoooohooooo that was = fun :)   I noticed it is not a type RS so the brushes I guess ride the commutators = all the time, not sure what all advantages/disadvantages there are to the two types. Mine would have more moving parts but the brushes would not cause wear on the commutator bars, the Cathedral's would have less parts in the motor but brushes would wear more and the commutators with them too I = guess?         Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Addenda: More on Heaters and Starter Definitions From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:20:09 -0600   Mpmollerorgan@aol.com wrote: > Richard Schneider suggests Allen-Bradley, which product Richard?   Just a Size 00 across-the-line Magnetic Starter with the properly-sized heater elements in a NEMA Type 1 Enclosure will get you by. > I found a few "soft starters" don't know if that is what you had in = mind;   Given the size of the blower, and the fact that it's repulsion-induction you shouldn't need anything as elaborate or expensive as A Soft Start magnetic starter. Those are usually reserved for the "big boys" WAY out in the country, such as a 50 HP grain bin blower on a remote siding in the middle of Nowhere, IA. > Speaking of blowers, the electrician wired up the old St Vibiana now LA > Cathedral's old orgoblow Century 10HP blower in our storage building = here > so we could run test it, I fired it up briefly.... whoooohooooo that = was fun > :) > > I noticed it is not a type RS so the brushes I guess ride the = commutators all > the time, not sure what all advantages/disadvantages there are to the = two > types. Mine would have more moving parts but the brushes would not = cause > wear on the commutator bars, the Cathedral's would have less parts in = the > motor but brushes would wear more and the commutators with them too I = guess?   I'd be willing to guess that a blower like that from the Cathedral in L.A. would probably have a 3 Phase motor for a 10 HP blower. Most anything that large in a place like that uses 3 phase whenever it is available (and I'm sure a metropolitan location like L.A. has had 3 phase adjacent to this building for YEARS!)   Check the blower nameplate. That's why there's no brushes or a starter centrifugal switch. If otherwise, I'd REALLY be surprised!! Another hint is if all of the lights in the neighborhood in Lake City dimmed whenever you started this thing (like ours do when something at the Grain Elevator starts up!)   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL