DIYAPASON-L Digest #468 - Friday, December 21, 2001
 
The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
RE: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  The "Joys" of releathering revisited
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Springs and Weights
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Springs and Weights
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: The "Joys" of releathering, don't let this happen to you!
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:29:16 EST   I'm at the point now where I am to finish the two reservoirs, the smaller = one needing only the four gussett corners and toe corners. The four pairs of wood boards are hinged together on the larger reservoir, =   the top frame is all twill taped and the four board pairs are glued to = the main box. Now comes what seems to be THE most difficult part, gluing the = top frame down to the four pairs of hinged boards. I remember fussing and fuming on the first one but not exactly how now = months later what I did to get the op frame glued on right, positioned right and glued to the twill tape on the four pairs of boards.   The problem seems to be you can barely get inside the thing in any way = shape or form to properly glue down the twill due to the acute angle of the = boards in any position of the top than full open.   Gluing the pairs of boards together, no problem, gluing those to the main box, no problem because you can angle them full open or more and get at = the twill hinge, but once the whole thing is ready for the top frame it sure seems to be a real pain in the A** It's made worse too by the twill tape being only one inch wide and by the time you do a hinge and put in temporary spacers I'd bet there isn't more than 1/4" of actual twill actually glued to the boards on each edge. Looking back now I almost wish I had simply bought two new reservoirs from = OSI           Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:17:33 -0600   At 1:29 AM -0500 12/21/01, Mpmollerorgan@aol.com wrote: >Gluing the pairs of boards together, no problem, gluing those to the main >box, no problem because you can angle them full open or more and get at = the >twill hinge, but once the whole thing is ready for the top frame it sure >seems to be a real pain in the A**   Randall   You might try attaching the ribs to the Top Board FIRST and then once the glue is dry turn the whole thing - Top Board with attached ribs over on the box and attaching the assembly there. Much easier than trying to do it the way you described.   You may have gone too far with this one to do that but keep it in mind for the future. We normally twill tape the ribs together and also put the hinge leather on them and let them dry, then glue them to the top board and let it dry and then attach the whole thing to the box. Once all of that is dry we then make a spaced to prop the top board open and do the rest of the leathering of the hinges and then the gussets, etc.   Hope this helps   David  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:15:35 EST     In a message dated 12/21/01 5:18:05 AM, david@blackiris.com writes:   >Randall > >You might try attaching the ribs to the Top Board FIRST and then once >the glue is dry turn the whole thing - Top Board with attached ribs >over on the box and attaching the assembly there. Much easier than >trying to do it the way you described.     Hi David, Believe it or not I'm following the Dobson instruction manual, Bob does = show flipping the whole assembly over, but does instruct to glue the boards to = the box first and then laying the frame on and flipping it over. I don't quite see how it makes much difference which is done first; gluing =   the boards to the box then the top frame to the boards or vice versa = because there are still those two horrible twill hinges that have to be glued on = in an acute angle.   Seems to me I had the smaller reservoir on saw horses on it's side opened = and propped to glue on the top frame, but that was only 36x36, this one I'm = doing now is 30x50 which is more difficult to work. I think I will have it better now since I did manage to eventually get the =   first long side glued on, so when I try putting the whole thing on it's = side propped open the top frame will have some stability and be aligned to the boards okay. The first was most difficult to get on, aligned and all the = rest while the glue sets up! I don't know which direction your twill hinges go, but the instruction = sheet with diagrams shows that when the assembly is closed, half the width of = the twill is attached UNDER the side boards and to the top of the box not the perimeter edges, so the twill is folded over itself in half, and the = other hinges are attached to the UNDERSIDE of the top frame, not the perimeter edges and then folded under and to the boards.   It would be easier but probably I think weaker to glue the twill on the perimeter edges of the top frame and over the boards, I'm not sure how = others arrange the twill hinges but that is how we do it. The result is = mechanically the twill hinge glue would be in sheer when under stress, not pushing it = out. The leather of course goes that way, over the 3/4" thick perimeter edge of =   the top frame boards and down.   We also skive all edges of leather strips and glue leather strips inside = over the twill hinge that hold the pairs of boards together, and I did that = before I put the top frame on.   I have the diagram I could scan and upload on my web site later to = clarify, I'd be interested to hear how others handle the task. And yes, kinda late to change gears now but I think the worst is over. I unfortunately have a funeral to go to this morning but when I get back = I'll fire up the glue pot again and maybe put up the diagram later today.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/                    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:17:33 -0500   At 05:17 AM 12/21/2001 -0600, you wrote:   >You might try attaching the ribs to the Top Board FIRST and then once the =   >glue is dry turn the whole thing - Top Board with attached ribs over on >the box and attaching the assembly there. Much easier than trying to do >it the way you described.   Thanks for the info. too, David. I'm going to soon start installing my small regulator for my 16' Bourdon pipes, so they will become more than just show pipes in the Great room. I'm going to try it as is, but can tell =   it will need to be releathered soon, and have never done one before. I assume that one uses Hide glue for this job?   Also, anyone know if one can install a curtain valve regulator on its = side? The curtain appears to be run up and down mechanically rather than the curtain unrolling back closed by gravity. I have a separate curtain valve like this and I know it certainly wouldn't work on its side. Also, even if =   the valve works ok on its side, will the top of the regulator need to be supported somehow to keep it from putting stress on the folds, etc.? I've seen pictures of these on their sides so I know it is possible, although I'm not sure of the valve that was used.   Thanks and a Blessed Holiday, Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:44:31 EST     In a message dated 12/21/01 10:18:05 AM, ess4@psu.edu writes:   > >Thanks for the info. too, David. I'm going to soon start installing my >small regulator for my 16' Bourdon pipes, so they will become more than >just show pipes in the Great room. I'm going to try it as is, but can = tell       >it will need to be releathered soon, and have never done one before. I >assume that one uses Hide glue for this job?   Yep, the one and only original :) I was able to borrow our spare electric temperature controlled gluepot = for my project, sure is handy. I have 5# of granulate hyde glue from OSI, it's pretty reasonably priced. FUnny, eryone else at work hates the odor of hyde glue but I don't find it at all unpleasant to work with, other than it's sticky as = heck and if you get some on your skin it seems to really dry out or roughen = skin, maybe a mild acidic quality to it that reminds me of working with concrete =   which gives the same effect but worse.     >Also, anyone know if one can install a curtain valve regulator on its = side? >The curtain appears to be run up and down mechanically rather than the >curtain unrolling back closed by gravity. I have a separate curtain valve   I've never heard of it, I see no reason it wouldn't work in theory but = could see the weight of the top frame and ribs would be unevenly pulling and stressing specific hinges more than others. Also, if the reservoir has = cast iron weights they obviously wont work in the position you mention. Both my reservoirs have coil springs and cast iron weights.   >supported somehow to keep it from putting stress on the folds, etc.? I've >seen pictures of these on their sides so I know it is possible, although >I'm not sure of the valve that was used.   If you saw them on their side then they probably only had coil springs no iron weights which need gravity to work. Have to run out the door!   Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:37:00 -0500   At 11:44 AM 12/21/2001 -0500, you wrote: > Also, if the reservoir has cast >iron weights they obviously wont work in the position you mention. >Both my reservoirs have coil springs and cast iron weights. > > >supported somehow to keep it from putting stress on the folds, etc.? = I've > >seen pictures of these on their sides so I know it is possible, = although > >I'm not sure of the valve that was used. > >If you saw them on their side then they probably only had coil springs no >iron weights which need gravity to work.   Yes they were just springs, as you say the weights definitely won't work. BTW, my small Bourdon regulator has no springs or weights. There are some marks on top appearing that it might have used compass springs, but no supports of any kind for springs. I wonder if this regulator would work ok =   with just weights, as the Pedal Bourdon pipes aren't that sensitive to pressure changes?   It's the Great regulator that I'd like to mount on its side. The chest = will be mounted at the second floor level of the Great room overhanging the dining room table. There is my daughters bedroom closet right on the other =   side of the wall and I'd really like to install the regulator in there. = But it would need to sit sideways to fit. I guess my other option would be to use a Schwimmer. But I have no idea how to build one of these. Also some people say they regulate too solidly, taking some life out of the sound.   Eric    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:21:41 -0600   Howdy Eric and all!   First I would like to wish each of you a wonderful Holiday Season and hope that 2002 will be a spectacular year for everyone!   About regulators mounted on their side. This summer I went with a builder friend on a service call to a little Reuter here in Fort Worth, I think it was Saint Luke's by the Freeway. Not a lot of room for the 20+ranks in = the back up high in the choir loft. The first thing I noticed was that all = the regulators were mounted along the walls on their sides. Again, with only springs.   Which brings me to a question for our builder mentors out there. I had always thought, and maybe been told, that for the best results, you needed both, springs and dead weight. One or the other helped with quick = responses and the other for lasting responses.   When my instrument, Eleanor, started playing, I worked with the springs on the regulators and then added weights. (For weights, I used the concrete walking stones from the garden center and covered them with heavy paper.) = I do have a small 30" x 30" regulator above my blower on its side with only springs that supplies air to my Pedal Bourdon and Swell 16' Lieblich Gedeckt, on about 5" of wind.   Again, I wish each of you the best during this season. And hope Santa brings everyone a new Trumpet en Chamade to go over the fireplace and a = new 32' Open for the Living Room!   Craig Elders   -----Original Message----- From: Eric Sagmuller [mailto:ess4@psu.edu] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 11:37 AM To: Residence Organ List Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited     At 11:44 AM 12/21/2001 -0500, you wrote: > Also, if the reservoir has cast >iron weights they obviously wont work in the position you mention. >Both my reservoirs have coil springs and cast iron weights. > > >supported somehow to keep it from putting stress on the folds, etc.? = I've > >seen pictures of these on their sides so I know it is possible, = although > >I'm not sure of the valve that was used. > >If you saw them on their side then they probably only had coil springs no >iron weights which need gravity to work.   Yes they were just springs, as you say the weights definitely won't work. BTW, my small Bourdon regulator has no springs or weights. There are some marks on top appearing that it might have used compass springs, but no supports of any kind for springs. I wonder if this regulator would work ok =   with just weights, as the Pedal Bourdon pipes aren't that sensitive to pressure changes?   It's the Great regulator that I'd like to mount on its side. The chest = will be mounted at the second floor level of the Great room overhanging the dining room table. There is my daughters bedroom closet right on the other =   side of the wall and I'd really like to install the regulator in there. = But it would need to sit sideways to fit. I guess my other option would be to use a Schwimmer. But I have no idea how to build one of these. Also some people say they regulate too solidly, taking some life out of the sound.   Eric     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] The "Joys" of releathering revisited From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 14:38:04 EST     >back up high in the choir loft. The first thing I noticed was that all >the regulators were mounted along the walls on their sides. Again, with only springs.   >Which brings me to a question for our builder mentors out there. I had >always thought, and maybe been told, that for the best results, you = needed >both, springs and dead weight. One or the other helped with quick = responses >and the other for lasting responses.   That's what I read and heard too, so I imagine the regulators on their = sides with only springs would be a compromise between having a working organ in = the space available, or not because there's no room.     >When my instrument, Eleanor, started playing, I worked with the springs >on the regulators and then added weights. (For weights, I used the = concrete >walking stones from the garden center and covered them with heavy paper.) > I   >Craig Elders   We buy those 20' long steel bars about 1/2" thick by 5" or so wide from a steel supplier, it's not expensive, and just cut it into 6", 1 and 2 foot chunks. I think the stuff is 10# per foot. We prime and paint the steel brown. I have seen new reservoirs loaded down along their entire perimeter =   with the bars to start with then remove however many need to come off. Amazing how much one of these can lift in dead weight. Switching on the blower you just see the top of the reservoir just effortlessly lift up a couple hundred pounds of steel without any hesitation. Seems like it might be an idea to power a dumbwaiter or small elevator to = go a floor up and down.   I once lived in a building built in 1892 by McKim/Mead and White that was = the steam driven main power station for the Broadway and Housten st cable car lines, it had a hydraulic frght elevator from the main floor to the = basement, that operated with water pressure pumped by an amazingly tiny pump. about = the size of a typical 1/3 HP electric grinder motor. It was slow but pretty = cool.   Anyway I am back and working on gluing reservoir, I have the thang upside down propped open and the second frame hinge glued in, starting on the = third and fourth. Hopefully later tonight it may be set up enough to put the rest of the leather strips on, or most anyway.   Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Springs and Weights From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:59:29 -0600   Hi, Craig!   Springs (coil or compass) on a reservior provide a quick response to a demand for wind. They provide most of the energy to move the reservior top/valve in response to any variation in pressure. Weights on a = reservior serve to add *inertia* to the reservior top, once it is in motion (caused by the spring's reaction to a demand for wind). The weight tends to make the reservior top/valve overcorrect *very slightly*, which can create a subtle effect in response to sudden demands for wind (i.e., a "big = chord"). The end result of a good marriage of the two becomes a wind supply that = is most nearly rock-steady, but not quite. A little "give" will be apparent under certain playing conditions where it is appropriate. Think of the = end of the Widor Toccata -- during all the running arpeggios and etc, the wind remains steady, for it is seeing a relatively steady, constant demand. = But for those last two chords (dah-DAHHHHHHHHHHH), seperated by a brief rest, the extra inertia of the weighted reservior top gives the final of those two chords just a *squooch* of extra emphasis, as it slightly overreacts = to the wind demand variations produced by the rest. The overall result is that the music gains a natural "life" of its own, in much the same way as = a human voice is capable of slightly emphasising any given syllable of sound it produces. [NOTE: I am in no way suggesting/endorsing "wiggle wind"...the effect I speak of is truly so subtle so as to be unnoticeable by itself. You couldn't particularly *hear* the effect, but you would likely notice the *absence* of it.]   One common criticism of schwimmer-style wind regulators is their lack of this "inertia effect" -- no part of the schwimmer mechanism has the inherent mass to be able to react so imprecisely to the variations in wind demand. Schwimmer wind is so nearly completely "rock-steady" that the music can border on becoming "sterile" (a term/concept often used to bash the sounds of electronic organs).   It would seem that weights on typical reservoirs serve to *add* a bit of error factor to the wind regulation system -- but a *desirable* error factor. Also worth remembering is the fact that the reservoir top has its own amount of "mass" even before the addition of weights...in some instances extra weights are not needed.   Weights on reservoirs will also affect the tremolo's action on that reservoir, but that's a whole 'nother topic for a different time. <g>   There wouldn't seem to be any finite "formula" for what will *always* be the best...as each organ is different, such are the characteristics of its winding system. The trick becomes finding the correct balance for each one. Fortunately, "trial and error" is usually a quick and efficient = means to this end!   Hope some of this made a *little* sense...<G>   Cheers all --   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR   At 12:21 PM 12/21/01 -0600, you wrote: <snip> >Which brings me to a question for our builder mentors out there. I had >always thought, and maybe been told, that for the best results, you = needed >both, springs and dead weight. One or the other helped with quick = responses >and the other for lasting responses.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Springs and Weights From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:42:11 EST     In a message dated 12/21/01 4:59:36 PM, tmbovard@earthlink.net writes:   >. The weight tends to make >the reservior top/valve overcorrect *very slightly*, which can create a >subtle effect in response to sudden demands for wind (i.e., a "big = chord"). > The end result of a good marriage of the two becomes a wind supply that >is >most nearly rock-steady, but not quite. A little "give" will be apparent >under certain playing conditions where it is appropriate. Think of the   >for those last two chords (dah-DAHHHHHHHHHHH), seperated by a brief rest, >the extra inertia of the weighted reservior top gives the final of those >two chords just a *squooch* of extra emphasis, as it slightly overreacts >to the wind demand variations produced by the rest.     Oh boy Tim, you made something as ordinary and boring as "wind" sound absolutely mouth wateringly scrumptious!!! I swear I have only seen more delicious sounding descriptions of things = like chocolate layer cake or something like that.   Anyway I am happy to report that after 6 hours of work the small = reservoir is all leathered and the big one needs only the corner gussets!!   Tommorow I'll do that and while the glue is curing over night the small reservoir will be installed and the windline made ready for the big = reservoir to go in on it's rack stand on Sunday. Sure will also be nice to have all these regulators and glue stuff out of my livingroom.   Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: The "Joys" of releathering, don't let this happen to you! From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:14:21 EST   From the "Don't let this happen to YOU" corner;   On the small reservoir I just finished I discovered rather rudely that the 8 toe corner gussets were not = adhering to the leather underneath. Much to my dismay I could just peel them right = off. I figure I didn't completely remove ALL traces of that white surface finsh = on the corner gussets where the toe caps were to be glued over, and where = ever there was some left there was no adhesion at all.   Sign, so I just spent the better part of 2 hours replacing 6 of the toes corners and am about to replace the last two after using the dremet tool = and sanding drum to remove all of the white surface of the leather down to the =   grey below and regluing new caps back on. What a pain...       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/