DIYAPASON-L Digest #234 - Monday, January 15, 2001
pipe scales
  by <>
Fw: [Residence Organs]  pipe scales
  by "VEAGUE" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mounting large pipes off chests
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <>
New List Member
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <>
Re: pipe scales
  by "Larry Chace" <>
Re: pipe scales
  by "Larry Chace" <>
RE: Weekend Salvage trip
  by "STEVE PITTS" <>
Small Residence Pipe Organ for Sale
  by "noel jones, aago" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mounting large pipes off chests
  by "Tom Dimock" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Thin wind chests
  by "Jane and Dave Whitmore" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: Weekend Salvage trip
  by <>
Re: Pt. 2 pipe repairs ...  Opps....... hit send now too before finished.
  by <>

(back) Subject: pipe scales From: <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:20:13 EST   can anyone advise where to find either listings of various pipe scales or formulas to calculate the same; i.e. halving ratios, etc. thanks and regards R. J. Siegel  
(back) Subject: Fw: [Residence Organs] pipe scales From: "VEAGUE" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:27:26 -0500   One good source for pipe scales is Barnse's -Contemporary American Organ.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: <> To: <> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:20 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] pipe scales     > can anyone advise where to find either listings of various pipe scales = or > formulas to calculate the same; i.e. halving ratios, etc. > thanks and regards > R. J. Siegel > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : > List: > Administration: >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mounting large pipes off chests From: "Eric Sagmuller" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:27:46 -0500   At 10:15 PM -0500 1/13/01, wrote: >Hello all- > > >I guess I see some options. Which one is best? > >1) Not worry about it. It won't be a problem. >2) Have a Direct Electric action mounted directly to each bass note and = use >pressure from the regulator split 12 ways to the valves. >3) Split the chest. (yuck) >4) Miter the notes. (yuck two) > >OK "short ceiling" folks, what did you do? >   My Swell Chamber has an 8' ceiling so I also had a problem when it came time to install my 16' Leiblich Gedeckt extension. After looking the situation over I came to the conclusion that lying the pipes horizontally just wasn't a good option for me, as they would end up being crowded behind, speaking underneath the main chests. I had a nice spot to place them vertically so I ended up mitering the 5 longest pipes. Fortunately I have a large bandsaw with a 36" throat available to me at the University here. I took each pipe and made two passes through each one leaving me with 3 pieces per pipe. I then took a biscuit joiner, glue and clamps and reassembled each pipe to make for two 45 deg. joints on each pipe. After the glue was dry I glued strips of leather over the joints inside each pipe. The longest pipe was a challenge though as I could barely reach the joints. I also have a small Christmas tree light on the end of a cord I hung down into the pipes to be able to see the joints.The pipes turned out very nice and work as well as they did before mitering.   Without the large bandsaw I don't know if I would have attempted this, as I would have had to make a cut on each of the four sides of the pipe separately, rather than cut through the pipe in one swipe, as in the case of the bandsaw.   Wishing you success at whatever option you choose.   Eric Sagmuller    
(back) Subject: New List Member From: "Eric Sagmuller" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:41:25 -0500   At 1:03 AM -0500 1/14/01, wrote: >Listers, > >I stumbled on this list accidentally while surfing the Organ Webring. = After >reading much of the archives, I decided to join. I also noticed that = most of >you submitted a short autobio initially. I'll submit mine later. > >I am new to "this" list, but I recognize a few of y'all's names from = Piporg >and Pipechat (a couple years ago).   Welcome to the list Keith! We wrote back and forth a couple of times when I was still on pipeorg-l, and then I didn't see you post for awhile so I wondered if you were still around. I think you will really enjoy this list as its main focus is on Res. organ building. There are alot of Great people on this list. Pipeorg-l was nice but just cluttered my mailbox too much with information I couldn't use. I can still access their articles though through the web server as desired.   So far I only have 3 ranks playing with many more to go. But I love every minute of the project as I get time to work on it, which isn't as often as I like.   Glad you're here!   Eric Sagmuller    
(back) Subject: Re: pipe scales From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:14:03 -0500   R. J. Siegel asked about pipe scales. Out of the depths of the = archives...   >Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:20:49 -0400 >Sender: Pipe Organs and Related Topics <PIPORG-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU> >From: Larry Chace <> >Subject: Scales of pipes and the measurement thereof   Eric Sagmuller asked about the measurement of pipe diameters. From the archives of PIPORG-L we can find several postings on this subject. Two tables seem helpful, both based upon a standard scale such that the pipe diameter halves on the 17th pipe (starting counting at "1" and going up 16 semi-tones); this corresponds to a ratio of diameters of 1.68 (the fourth root of 8) at the octave, and in Germany this is referred to as the "Normalmensur". The American version of this scale includes "scale numbers" that correspond to particular diameters. The scale number is not dependent upon the pipe's pitch.   The first table contains those entries that are most likely to match the bottom pipe of an 8' rank, assuming a rather wide variety, as you will = see:   Note Sc Inch mm pi*Inch ---- -- ---- ----- ------ GGG# 40 7.28 184.9 22.86 AAA 41 6.97 177.1 21.89 AAA# 42 6.67 169.5 20.94 BBB 43 6.39 162.3 20.06 CC 44 6.12 155.5 19.22 CC# 45 5.86 148.9 18.40 DD 46 5.61 142.6 17.62 DD# 47 5.37 136.5 16.86 EE 48 5.15 130.7 16.17 FF 49 4.93 125.2 15.48 FF# 50 4.72 119.9 14.82 GG 51 4.52 114.8 14.19 GG# 52 4.33 109.9 13.60 AA 53 4.15 105.3 13.03 AA# 54 3.97 100.8 12.47 BB 55 3.80 96.5 11.93 C 56 3.64 92.4 11.43 C# 57 3.48 88.5 10.93 D 58 3.33 84.7 10.46 D# 59 3.19 81.1 10.02 E 60 3.06 77.7 9.61 F 61 2.93 74.4 9.20 F# 62 2.81 71.3 8.82 .... c1 68 2.16 54.9 6.78 .... e1 72 1.89 46.2 5.93 .... g1 75 1.59 40.5 4.99 .... c2 80 1.28 32.6 4.02   (This covers just about any 8' metal flue pipe used in theatre organs, and it therefore also covers those used in more traditional instruments as well.)   The second table is the more complete one, showing all of the "standard" diameters for ranks from 32' pitch to 1' pitch (of 5 octaves compass). = The American scale numbers are shown only for the 32' octave; just as 12 for each column as you move across to higher pitches; 8' C is 44, for example.     32' 16' 8' 4' 2' 1' 1/2' 1/4' 1/8' 1/16'   C 20 439.7 261.5 155.5 92.4 54.9 32.6 19.3 11.5 6.8 4.0 C# 21 421.2 250.4 148.9 88.5 52.6 31.3 18.6 11.0 6.5 3.9 D 22 403.2 239.8 142.6 84.7 50.4 29.9 17.8 10.5 6.3 3.7 D# 23 386.2 229.6 136.5 81.1 48.2 28.7 17.0 10.1 6.0 3.6 E 24 369.9 219.9 130.7 77.7 46.2 27.4 16.3 9.7 5.7 3.4 F 25 354.1 210.6 125.2 74.4 44.2 26.3 15.6 9.3 5.5 3.3 F# 26 339.1 201.6 119.9 71.3 42.3 25.2 14.9 8.8 5.2 3.1 G 27 324.7 193.1 114.8 68.2 40.5 24.1 14.3 8.5 5.0 3.0 G# 28 311.0 184.9 109.9 65.3 38.8 23.1 13.7 8.1 4.8 2.8 A 29 297.8 177.1 105.3 62.6 37.2 22.1 13.1 7.8 4.6 2.7 A# 30 285.2 169.5 100.8 59.9 35.6 21.1 12.6 7.4 4.4 2.6 B 31 273.1 162.3 96.5 57.4 34.1 20.2 12.0 7.1 4.2 2.5   These tables are only a guide, and various builders (even "factory" builders) may have assigned scale numbers that are slightly off these values. (And, of course, _many_ builders do not follows these scaling charts at all, choosing instead to vary the pipe diameters as best suits their artistic goals and the acoustics of the instrument's intended location!)   When actually measuring a pipe, you _should_ measure the inside diameter, since those are the values given in these tables, but that can be difficult. Even using an inside-measuring caliper, you will have to be careful not to distort the pipe, and the pipe may not be perfectly round, so you may need to take several measurements. Some folks prefer to = measure the outside diameter and then adjust for the pipe wall thickness. If you use a small strip of paper, you can wrap it around the outside of the = pipe, marking where it overlaps; that will work even if the pipe isn't perfectly round. Of course, you will have to divide by "pi" (3.1415926535....) and then subtract twice the pipe wall thickness.   On some ranks, you may find the scale number stamped or scratched into the metal, perhaps on the upper lip and perhaps on the back of the pipe near the foot. (But you still might want to measure, just in case the original builder had a different set of scales!)   When trying to match up sets of pipes from different sources, you might = use the scale numbers as a rough guide, but it is the _sound_ that is important! There are _lots_ of variables besides the pipe's diameter and its length!   It has been good to see some new folks with an interest in building their own residence pipe organs. There are actually quite a few people on this list (or who used to be here) with the same affliction.   Larry Chace (      
(back) Subject: Re: pipe scales From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:25:00 -0500   Looking back at (local) archives of old PIPORG-L stuff (and other stuff), let me recommend that the PIPORG-L archives, available via the web, = contain a wealth of stuff, particularly from the first two years or so. Look for notes from Ken List, Allen Miller, Allan Ontko, and other organ builders whose names you might know. It isn't *all* wheat, and you may have to = sort through a quantity of chaff, but there is a lot to be found there.   The search facility would be of help, of course.   Before the days of DIYAPASON-L there were periodic outbreaks of residence organ discussions on PIPORG-L (along with the other periodic topics such = as "organ shoes", "Haskell basses", and the like).   Larry Chace      
(back) Subject: RE: Weekend Salvage trip From: "STEVE PITTS" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:02:52 -0600     This weekend I salvaged some Pipe Organ parts from an estate auction in north Georgia.I drove out there in a 14 ft rental truck thinking that = would be plenty big.I was shocked when I arrived and saw what I had got myself into.The only = previous clue I had about this stuff was some pictures I got via e-mail and a brief verbal description. The owner had a 20ft X 20ft room full of stuff, unfortunately , most of it old and dilapidated.It was sad to see some very large cardboard boxes of mangled pipes including what were reed resonators. One of the windchest = they wanted to get rid of was HUGE.It was about 7ft longI did find some crated pipes and some windchests that were in good condition.It cost a lot more than I expected to rent and operate the truck. The stuff I got: 4 ft open Diapason rank and windchest   4 ft Dulce rank and windchest 4 ft Violin and windchest 8 ft reedless Oboe with lowest octave capped (wish I knew who made these) some various small wooden stopped Bourdon and Melodia octaves several Bass Offset chests a Treble Offsett chest The stuff I left and/or dont want: A huge Bass octave of 16 ft stopped wooden pipes 2 blowers one of which had a square wooden fan cage ...motor tag said 1915 2 reserviors, very old .the leather was old and cracked like paper an old Kilgen theatre style console an old roll top console, apparently tubular pneumatic   Questions: is it possible to straighten out mitered metal pipes? is it usualy possible to replace pipes when one or two pipes in a rank are damaged or missing? (a few of the Oboes were crushed) is it possible to repair dents in soft metal pipes ? (some of the smaller Oboe pipes have some major dings in them)  
(back) Subject: Small Residence Pipe Organ for Sale From: "noel jones, aago" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:36:33 -0500   I can refer members to a church in Southeast Kentucky that has a small residence pipe instrument, complete, in a garage. It came out of an estate-type situation, was put together from various sources and spare parts by an organ builder for his own use. Stop tab console, as I recall, looking through the garage door. It is in an attached garage, concrete floor, in good storage place, but the pastor would like the garage back.   -- noel jones, aago ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Moderator, International Rodgers Organ Users Group Website:  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Mounting large pipes off chests From: "Tom Dimock" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:58:41 -0500   At 10:15 PM 01/13/2001 EST, Darren Ferreter wrote: >My problem >is the chest is about 100 inches long with a ceiling that is 96 inches.   This reminds me of a slightly humorous episode involving my acquisition of my Austin organ. I had built a room onto the house to hold a pipe organ, but had no specific instrument in mind. Over the years I had acquired a motley collection of pipes from various sources, and had the very loose idea of building from scratch. Then one day Cullie Mowers called and said "Tom - I think I may have found an organ for you". He proceeded to give = me a brief description, and his estimates of the sizes of the great and swell pipe chests. I was pretty disappointed at that point, as the Great chest (a classic Austin "walk-in" chest) was about 10" longer than the space available to hold it. But Cullie reminded me that these were only his estimates as to size, and we arranged to make a road trip to see the organ and get accurate measurements. The great day came, and I took the day off from work. You can imagine my happiness when the actual measurements showed that the Great chest would fit with 1" to spare, and the swell = chest would fit into its alcove with 3/8" to spare. Actually getting them in with so little room to work with was a whole different problem..   The humor came the next day when my boss stopped me in the hall to ask where I had been the previous day. My response was "I had to take the day off to measure my organ. To my great relief it was 10" shorter than I had thought!" The look on his face was priceless.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Tom Dimock ---- Cornell University ---- "There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader." M. = Gandhi  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Thin wind chests From: "Jane and Dave Whitmore" <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:51:02 -0500   At 03:08 PM 1/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >Many congrats to Dave Whitmore (and Jane!) on your significant progress! > >Regarding thin chests, I assume Dave meant one that sits on the floor and >holds pipes that are tall enough that there is little clearance to the >ceiling. Let's assume that the pipes are mitered (as Dave mentioned), so >that there is no problem with the pipe coming within a very small = distance >of the ceiling. (For open non-mitered pipes, you need to provide some >clearance so that the ceiling doesn't act like a tuning shade!)   This is indeed the case! The longest couple of pipes are mitered and the unmitered pipes are shorter than 2 diameters from the ceiling. (I think this is the rule of thumb for close clearances for the end of an open = pipe.)   >One approach to a very thin chest is to built it upside-down, with the >toeboard (no longer the "top" board!) extending behind the chest body >sufficiently that the pipes can fit into toeholes bored into its top >surface. That board should be thick enough that it can have channels >running from where the valves are mounted within the chest body, these >channels connecting with the actual toe holes. A laminated toeboard = might >work well and might be a bit thinner. The chest body will be in front of >the pipe feet, where it would not interfere with the speach.   This is pretty close to what I had in mind. I was thinking of using a = thick (3") piece of wood with vertical toe holes and connecting horizontal channels. The horizontal channels would terminate in a small wind chest with DE valves covering the horizontal holes. (Sorry, wish I could draw a picture but you should get the idea.)   The mouths of the pipes are fairly far away from the toe so the chest can be 4 or 5 inches thick without interfering with the pipe speech. More than =   enough room for a 3" wind flange and the 601 magnets. The somewhat longer horizontal run should also serve as an expansion chamber. I haven't a clue =   where these string pipes originally came from but the chances are they = were voiced on something other than a DE action.   Thanks to Larry and everyone else for their suggestions!   Dave in Vermont    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: Weekend Salvage trip From: <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:01:06 EST   In a message dated 1/15/01 7:03:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:   << Questions: is it possible to straighten out mitered metal pipes? is it usualy possible to replace pipes when one or two pipes in a rank are damaged or missing? (a few of the Oboes were crushed) is it possible to repair dents in soft metal pipes ? (some of the smaller Oboe pipes have some major dings in them) >> Mitred pipes are easy to unsolder and then resolder.   Replacement pipes are easy to make  
(back) Subject: Re: Pt. 2 pipe repairs ... Opps....... hit send now too before finished..... From: <> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:05:27 EST   In a message dated 1/15/01 7:03:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:   << Questions: is it possible to straighten out mitered metal pipes? is it usualy possible to replace pipes when one or two pipes in a rank are damaged or missing? (a few of the Oboes were crushed) is it possible to repair dents in soft metal pipes ? (some of the smaller Oboe pipes have some major dings in them) >>   Damaged pipes are easy to fix, in the trade we call it "body and fender = work."   Since the pipes are soft alloys, they may be worked easily. Mandrels and slap sticks are the easiest way to take out dents. Even pipes crushed = nearly flat can be brought back to round and usable shape.   Good luck,   Al Sefl   This time I hit the send button when finished. These senior moments are coming closer and closer together.........