DIYAPASON-L Digest #241 - Monday, January 22, 2001
 
RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
Danielwh
  by "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca>
Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: Good Word for Pipes
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Estey magnets.
  by "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Danielwh
  by "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Danielwh
  by "noel jones, aago" <gedeckt@usit.net>
RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest r
  by "Alwyn V. H. Farey-Jones" <avhfj@direcpc.com>
Fw: [Residence Organs]  Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,epchest re
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca>
 

(back) Subject: RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:30:14 -0600   I have a couple of questions for the Organ Builders and/or otherwise informed individuals on the list:   #1 Approx how much would an Organ Builder charge to re-leather an EP chest?How much would it cost me to do it? I have some old chests (1920?) with the square pouches that need re-leathering.The magnets and other parts of the mechanism looks intact.I am wondering if its more practical = to convert them to DE.If I buy a complete instrument at some point, (which is likely) I may get rid of the chests.I also like to think I might could add them to another Organ in the future.   #2 Could someone explain to me why ranks of pipes of different scales are incompatible?In what way are they incompatible?Most ranks of pipes I see = for sale are not described in terms of scale. I Have the impression that the scale of the pipe affected the tonal characteristics they produce.If this = is the case, this would seem to be more of an issue of the overall tonal design of the organ.      
(back) Subject: Danielwh From: "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:08:34 -0400     I got a call thismorning from the County Newspaper.They are coming to = interview me about My > Pipe Organ I have installed in my house.   Is there any tips I should know ,to be able to put a good word in for the = Pipe Organ. you never know , this might open peoples eyes torwards Pipe Organs in my area Long time Overdue. Please help me!!!!!!!!        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:36:37 -0600   Dear Steve and list:   Steve Pitts wrote: >I have a couple of questions for the Organ Builders and/or otherwise >informed individuals on the list: > >#1 Approx how much would an Organ Builder charge to re-leather an EP >chest?How much would it cost me to do it? I have some old chests (1920?) >with the square pouches that need re-leathering.The magnets and = other >parts of the mechanism looks intact.I am wondering if its more practical = to >convert them to DE.If I buy a complete instrument at some point, (which = is >likely) I may get rid of the chests.I also like to think I might could = add >them to another Organ in the future. > Keep the chests, because if all it needs is releathering you may be able = to do this yourself. You measure the pouches and buy replacements from OSI along with the glue and simply remove them and glue in the new ones. There's bound to be someone on the list that has done this before. If you =   do end up buying an intact organ you may want the chests to expand it.   Converting to DE would not be practical, nor would it be efficient. It would require buying Reisner magnet and valves (about $350 for 61 of them, =   tearing off the entire pouch board, closing off channels that go to the existing magnets, etc. Basically gutting the entire windchest and = scrapping all of the working parts so that all you have left would be the toe-board and starting all over to create the DE action. The result is also not as good as EP. This would only be practical if all of the action parts and magnets did not work and the only part of the chest that was usable was = the toeboard.   >#2 Could someone explain to me why ranks of pipes of different scales are >incompatible?In what way are they incompatible?Most ranks of pipes I see >for >sale are not described in terms of scale. I Have the impression that the >scale of the pipe affected the tonal characteristics they produce.If this =   >is >the case, this would seem to be more of an issue of the overall tonal >design of the organ. >   Your tonal design you may want to decide for yourself. Pick out the style =   of organ you think you want for the music you like to play. i.e., if you play classical and baroque you may want classical or baroque voicing, if = you play romantic literature the same applies and, of course, if you like Theatre organ music you won't settle for anything other than a theatre organ, although some have built theatre organs using church organ pipes. = As for scale, in the prinzipals/diapasons category the scales get larger as = the year they were built in increases. A 1700s tracker will have smaller diapasons or principals than a late 19th century romantic organ will and a =   1920s or 1930s church or theatre organ will have even larger diapasons. Generally speaking the scales are larger in the great than they would be = in the swell or choir divisions. In addition to being larger in scale they = are usually louder. Tonally, larger scales produce fewer upper harmonics and more fundamental tone and conversely, smaller scales produce better more refined harmonics and better brightness at the expense of losing some of = the volume of the fundamental tone. As for pipes going together or not going together, you wouldn't want to pair a larger scaled Octave 4 with a = smaller scaled Prinzipal 8. The scale should get smaller as the pitch goes up, a Superoctave 2 would be even a smaller scale than the Octave 4 and a = mixture smaller even still.   Many of the pipes in classifed ads are not described with a scale, but rather a measurement of the largest pipe. You can determine the scale by comparing it with the scale charts in the OSI catalog. If they are not described either way, you can always write them and ask them.   Sincerely,     Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Good Word for Pipes From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:38:42 EST   1. There is no substitute for pipes. The complexity of pipe organ sound makes it difficult for all but the most expensive digital systems to have = an acceptable copy.   2. The pipe organ started in Roman times as the Hydraulus and continues = to evolve more than any other musical instrument.   3. The pipe organ was the first synthesizer. Stops labeled Trumpet, = Violin, Oboe, are done so because they were imitative of the orchestral = instruments. A theatre organ goes a step further and tries to be a "unit orchestra" or one-man band.   4. Jazz played on a pipe organ can go places that no combo can because = the organist provides the melody, harmony, and bass line by themselves.   5. Pipe organs are the most complicated musical instruments ever made.   6. Pipe organs cover more of the audio spectrum than any other = instrument. This starts below the lowest note on a piano and tuba to above the highest =   note a piccolo can hit.   7. Pipe organs are "labor intensive" in that each pipe of the organ must = be made a different size and constructed by hand one at a time. An organ = with 3000 pipes means a great deal of work went into making the instrument. = The resulting fine instrument might have a life span of hundreds of years with =   proper maintenance.   8. Pipe organs can be played to reflect all of the human moods from joy at =   weddings to sorrow at funerals. Too often organs are played in a funerial =   manner or connected with horror film sound tracks but they really are best =   when played for the glory of God and the joy of happy music.   The above are my suggestions of bits and pieces that an article might = mention.   Al Sefl  
(back) Subject: Estey magnets. From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:55:44 +0100   Hello List, Is there someone who has spareparts from an Estey Residence player pipe organ from the years 1923-24? I don't have enough magnets for the Estey I'm restoring for a customer of me? For me it is no problem to build those ones, but it is to expansive, so = why not spareparts from another destroyed instrument? There are two the same models, only in size they are different!   If you need a photo, I will send it.   Greetings Louis Huivenaar Netherlands Organbuilder and restorer Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) Website: www.harmonium.com    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Danielwh From: "Elders, Craig" <c.elders@tcu.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:52:55 -0600   Good day to you and the list.   About 6 months before my home pipe organ started playing, Fort Worth's = Star Telegram came out to do a story on their feature page about my Pipe Organ. Then about 4 months after it start playing, a TV crew spent 2 days doing part of a show about my pipe organ. It was great to have some publicity. = I heard from friends that I have not heard from in years and met new people that were interested in Eleanor, my pipe organ.   I had all kinds of things I wanted to say to both the paper and the TV program. But they each had many of the same questions that I had not anticipated. Like, Why? What do your neighbors think? Wouldn't an = electric gizmo be cheaper and not take up as much space and cost as much?   Then as they begin to see the workings, and the sounds, they got curious. The had no idea that there was so much involved, winding, regulators, chests, miles of wires, valves, and so many different pipes sizes and = shapes - some metal, some wood, some old, some newer. It was hard for them to comprehend it all. They were impressed with the ability of a pipe organ = to "recycle" pipework, a pipe organ lasting hundreds of years, the beauty of the woodwork in the chests, supports, etc. I think the reporters were = more impressed with the complexity, the massive amounts of labor, the knowledge in so many areas (all the different tools required, woodworking, wiring, voicing, "artistry", visual, space, etc.). Then when they actually hear = it, it is so much fun to watch their face. At that point I think they finally realize why we have a pipe organ in our homes and our love for this = complex *massive* instrument.   Good luck with your interview and keep us posted. Of course, we want to read all about you and your instrument.   Craig Elders   -----Original Message----- From: danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca [mailto:danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca] Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 3:09 PM To: Residence Organ List Subject: [Residence Organs] Danielwh       I got a call thismorning from the County Newspaper.They are coming to interview me about My > Pipe Organ I have installed in my house.   Is there any tips I should know ,to be able to put a good word in for the Pipe Organ. you never know , this might open peoples eyes torwards Pipe Organs in my area Long time Overdue. Please help me!!!!!!!!         DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Danielwh From: "noel jones, aago" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:56:45 -0500   Daniel:   It would be very helpful for you to prepare a handout to give the news people...it is amazing how well a little thing like that can be received by a newspaper or tv crew and it makes their job easier...and much more accurate.   -- noel jones, aago ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Moderator, International Rodgers Organ Users Group Website: www.frogmusic.com/rodgersorgan.html  
(back) Subject: RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:25:46 EST   > I have a couple of questions for the Organ Builders and/or otherwise > informed individuals on the list: > #1 Approx how much would an Organ Builder charge to re-leather an EP > chest?How much would it cost me to do it? I have some old chests = (1920?) > with the square pouches that need re-leathering.The magnets and = other > parts of the mechanism looks intact.I am wondering if its more practical = to > convert them to DE.If I buy a complete instrument at some point, (which = is > likely) I may get rid of the chests.I also like to think I might could = add > them to another Organ in the future.   Converting chests is not cheap. Labor is not cheap and the real cost of organs is mostly in the labor. I tell my clients that pipe organs are = labor intensive and that while prices seem astronomical, you get something = unique as a result. Releathering can run as high as $8-$10 per note (pouch or = book pneumatics). For mass produced cheaper instruments, buy an electronic. > #2 Could someone explain to me why ranks of pipes of different scales = are > incompatible?In what way are they incompatible?Most ranks of pipes I see = for > sale are not described in terms of scale. I Have the impression that the > scale of the pipe affected the tonal characteristics they produce.If = this is > the case, this would seem to be more of an issue of the overall tonal > design of the organ. >>   A pipe scale is based on the diameter or width of the 8' CC pipe. It is = the number of the corresponiding pipe in a set where a gigantically impossible = 8' CC is one meter in width and a halving ratio on the 17th pipe. A large 38 =   scaled Open Diapason means you would go up the set to the 38th pipe and = that would be the diameter of your 8' pipe. For a scale 46 Open Diapason you would go up to the 46th pipe in your theoretical rank.   The scale 38 Diapason would be much louder than the scale 46 Diapason for = the same wind pressure. The 38 would be duller in harmonics and the 46 would = be brighter.   In adds the seller can sometimes just say, 8' Open 4"diam. 6"WP spotted = metal for the reader to understand that this is a small scale Diapason where the =   first 8' CC pipe is 4" in diameter with a 6" wind pressure. A builder = would know from experience if the rank was useful for the tonal design being contemplated.   Let us say you want a Baroque little sqeeker, which I love to build. You would go for small scales at lower wind pressures to work on your = mechancal windchests. The above Diapason would be fine for scale but the wind = pressure at 6" would be way too high. Voiced for 3" would be acceptable. Now you want more pipes to go with your first rank and the choices that must be = made are what ranks and how will they blend with eachother? All must be on 3" = and the scales will vary by how much power each rank is to have. If your next =   rank is a Gemshorn rank that will blend and hold its own with the Diapason = so you can build up a chorus, a 3" diameter pipe would work. As you go for = more ranks you must rely on knowledge and experience to tell you what will = blend. Usually the tonal designer is the top finisher voicer in a shop.   There is a reason some of us served 8 year apprenticeships!   Best of luck,   Al Sefl Who has owned the three most expensive things in life. (in order) A Boat...... An Airplane....... A Pipeorgan.......   But my wife has weaned me of the first two..........  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:40:57 -0600   The scaling issue is starting to make sense....I think I am beginning to understand.Sounds like if I choose to re-leather the chests that doing it myself would save a lot of money.I am guessing that the first thing to do = is to scrape off the old leather from the little square pouches (what are = those called by the way?assuming there is some Organ Building term for those).On an old EP chest is the pouch leather the only thing that typicaly wears = out? the magnets on mine all seem to still work.They are the old U-shapes = ones..   > -----Original Message----- > From: TheGluePot@aol.com [SMTP:TheGluePot@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 4:26 PM > To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Subject: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding > > > I have a couple of questions for the Organ Builders and/or otherwise > > informed individuals on the list: > > #1 Approx how much would an Organ Builder charge to re-leather an EP > > chest?How much would it cost me to do it? I have some old chests > (1920?) > > with the square pouches that need re-leathering.The magnets and > other > > parts of the mechanism looks intact.I am wondering if its more = practical > to > > convert them to DE.If I buy a complete instrument at some point, = (which > is > > likely) I may get rid of the chests.I also like to think I might could > add > > them to another Organ in the future. > > Converting chests is not cheap. Labor is not cheap and the real cost of =   > organs is mostly in the labor. I tell my clients that pipe organs are > labor > intensive and that while prices seem astronomical, you get something > unique > as a result. Releathering can run as high as $8-$10 per note (pouch or > book > pneumatics). For mass produced cheaper instruments, buy an electronic. > > > #2 Could someone explain to me why ranks of pipes of different scales > are > > incompatible?In what way are they incompatible?Most ranks of pipes I = see > for > > sale are not described in terms of scale. I Have the impression that = the > > scale of the pipe affected the tonal characteristics they produce.If > this is > > the case, this would seem to be more of an issue of the overall tonal > > design of the organ. > >> > > A pipe scale is based on the diameter or width of the 8' CC pipe. It is > the > number of the corresponiding pipe in a set where a gigantically = impossible > 8' > CC is one meter in width and a halving ratio on the 17th pipe. A large = 38 > > scaled Open Diapason means you would go up the set to the 38th pipe and > that > would be the diameter of your 8' pipe. For a scale 46 Open Diapason you =   > would go up to the 46th pipe in your theoretical rank. > > The scale 38 Diapason would be much louder than the scale 46 Diapason = for > the > same wind pressure. The 38 would be duller in harmonics and the 46 = would > be > brighter. > > In adds the seller can sometimes just say, 8' Open 4"diam. 6"WP spotted > metal > for the reader to understand that this is a small scale Diapason where = the > > first 8' CC pipe is 4" in diameter with a 6" wind pressure. A builder > would > know from experience if the rank was useful for the tonal design being > contemplated. > > Let us say you want a Baroque little sqeeker, which I love to build. = You > would go for small scales at lower wind pressures to work on your > mechancal > windchests. The above Diapason would be fine for scale but the wind > pressure > at 6" would be way too high. Voiced for 3" would be acceptable. Now = you > want more pipes to go with your first rank and the choices that must be > made > are what ranks and how will they blend with eachother? All must be on = 3" > and > the scales will vary by how much power each rank is to have. If your = next > > rank is a Gemshorn rank that will blend and hold its own with the = Diapason > so > you can build up a chorus, a 3" diameter pipe would work. As you go for > more > ranks you must rely on knowledge and experience to tell you what will > blend. > Usually the tonal designer is the top finisher voicer in a shop. > > There is a reason some of us served 8 year apprenticeships! > > Best of luck, > > Al Sefl > Who has owned the three most expensive things in life. (in order) > A Boat...... > An Airplane....... > A Pipeorgan....... > > But my wife has weaned me of the first two.......... > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:11:07 -0500   At 4:40 PM -0600 1/22/01, STEVE PITTS wrote: >Sounds like if I choose to re-leather the chests that doing it >myself would save a lot of money.I am guessing that the first thing to do = is >to scrape off the old leather......   Yes you can save a lot of money doing it yourself. The first thing to do however, before you start to scrape off the old pouches!... mark the boards in a manner so that you later know what size pallet belongs where ... especially look out for "odd sizes" matched where pouches may be doubled in the basses. Also "round pouches" are less wasteful if the pouch holes are round.   Hugh  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "Alwyn V. H. Farey-Jones" <avhfj@direcpc.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:14:03 -0500   > " . . . if you play classical and baroque you may want classical or baroque voicing . . ."   Please excuse my ignorance, but what, exactly, is "classical or baroque voicing"?   Alwyn Jones Long Island, NY    
(back) Subject: Fw: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,epchest rebuilding From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:34:18 -0500   Baroque voicing would be your North German organs.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: Alwyn V. H. Farey-Jones <avhfj@direcpc.com> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,epchest rebuilding     > > " . . . if you play classical and baroque you may want classical or > baroque voicing . . ." > > Please excuse my ignorance, but what, exactly, is "classical or baroque > voicing"? > > Alwyn Jones > Long Island, NY > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] RE: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:06:46 -0400   Its funny Of my wentire province where there are a numerous amount of Pipe Organs, = My county as far as I know , is the only one not to have any pipe organs = except for mine