DIYAPASON-L Digest #243 - Wednesday, January 24, 2001
 
Re: Making reeds
  by "Michael Schnell" <msschnel@us.ibm.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com>
DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; new answer!)
  by "Richard Schneider, President" <arpncorn@davesworld.net>
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds
  by "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Re: Re: Making reeds
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject;  newanswer
  by "Jan S. VanDerStad" <dorian@nac.net>
Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs]  identifying wooden pipes
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Re: Making reeds
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Making reeds From: "Michael Schnell" <msschnel@us.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:53:21 -0600   Hello friends, I also share Homer Valenzona's interest in making reeds. However, not having a metalworking shop at my fingertips I had been considering investigating Haskell's "reedless" reeds. Here's the questions:   1) Has anyone ever seen or worked on these pipes in the past? 2) Are there any instructions on how to make them? 3) And for the theoretical department: What effect does the various = shapes of pipes have on the harmonic content?   I know that different shapes favor different harmonics, but I wonder if it's possible to get those harmonics with flue pipes. Since I have been making paper pipes (from M. Wicks book) I was going to make some string pipes and then begin experimenting on reedless reeds. My goal is to make a home organ using ordinary materials anyone can get at the hardware store. A "paper reed" stop would give me a lot more options tonally than just flute tone. Any help would be appreciated. Mike Schnell    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:30:35 -0500   Michael Schnell <msschnel@us.ibm.com> asked about making labial "reed" pipes. I know of no instructions or even detailed dimensions for the = Estey labial Oboes, Clarinets, Saxophones, or Tubas. There *are* examples of those pipes around, but I've seen no documentation.   Basically, though, all of them are "super strings", though the Clarinets are a bit more restrained. Allen Miller told me of a residence organ project (theatre-ish, I think) in which they "auditioned" several ranks, searching for the best Viol d'Orchestre. The winner was an Estey labial Saxophone, which is in effect a big wooden string.   A simpler approach, perhaps, for a residence organ erzatz-reed would be = the "synthetic" type produced by mixing a unison string with some mutations. The most common form is the Oboe Synthetique (!), an 8' string =   with a 2-2/3' flute. I once heard an example on a Midmer-Losh church = organ that was very convincing, even though the flute mutation was unified from the Stopped Diapason. A true 2-2/3' should be even better.   In addition, you don't need a metalworking shop to make real reed pipes. Everything except the tongue and wire can be made of wood. It isn't simple, though!   Michael, how about a report on your experience with the paper pipes?   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:22:58 -0600   I have two large 16 ft stopped wooden bass octaves.The tallest pipe of = each set is about 9 or 10 ft long and about 1 ft wide.One set has side and = bottom "beards" (terminology?) on the mouth of the pipe.The other set does = not.Also the set with the side beards has the foot of the pipe mounted on the front of the pipe.Is this done just to save ceiling height? I am guessing the offset chest for these pipes would lay on its side.Does anyone have a = guess as to what kind of pipes these are? I would assume that at least one of = them is a Bourdon...      
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:31:56 -0600     I have about 10 reed assemblies from some damaged pipes I salvaged if = anyone needs them for study or a reed making project.  
(back) Subject: DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; new answer!) From: "Richard Schneider, President" <arpncorn@davesworld.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:46:42 -0600   > Dave McClellan wrote regarding D.V.A.'s:   > The only problem I have had with them is that the exhaust hole, which > faces upward, is a good place for spiders to make their nests, and > also a good collector of dust and dirt. All failures I have had are > the result of this.     Then Frank Vanaman wrote:   > Well, for an extreme solution (!), you could try chest designs. . . > where the clamshell faces down. The exhaust port is bored into the > bottom board, and comes out to the front.   > The open weave cloth solution doesn't sound bad though... Gentleman and Listers:   We were also concerned about the possibility of dirt/Spider accumulations on the Toeboards of windchests constructed with D.V.A.'s, and so hit upon a solution in the form of some small brass round buttons made up of a ring between which is some wire mesh screening similar to Hardware cloth. Being made out of brass, they are actually quite attractive and serve to "dress-up" the hole, as well as to serve to protect it from the entrance of foreign matter.   I keep these in stock, so that no one has to "re-invent the wheel" for looking to find a stock of them. Write me privately if you would like to purchase some.   Faithfully,   "Grandpa Arp in the Corn Patch" Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Organbuilders 41-43 Johnston St. P. O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com Business EMAIL rnjs@bwsys.net Personal EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com Web Page URL  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:11:15   Dear Michael, The Art of Organbuilding (by Audsley, I think),section on wood pipes describes construction and scales of pipes of "special tonalities" = including Schulze's Echo Oboe, Haskell's labial oboe and saxophone, and Pendlebury's =   Corno Dolce. These are wood labial stops ,apparently imitative of the reeds. Good Luck. Homer     >From: Larry Chace <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> >Reply-To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> >To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> >Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds >Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:30:35 -0500 > >Michael Schnell <msschnel@us.ibm.com> asked about making labial "reed" >pipes. I know of no instructions or even detailed dimensions for the = Estey >labial Oboes, Clarinets, Saxophones, or Tubas. There *are* examples of >those pipes around, but I've seen no documentation. > >Basically, though, all of them are "super strings", though the Clarinets >are a bit more restrained. Allen Miller told me of a residence organ >project (theatre-ish, I think) in which they "auditioned" several ranks, >searching for the best Viol d'Orchestre. The winner was an Estey labial >Saxophone, which is in effect a big wooden string. > >A simpler approach, perhaps, for a residence organ erzatz-reed would be = the >"synthetic" type produced by mixing a unison string with some >mutations. The most common form is the Oboe Synthetique (!), an 8' = string >with a 2-2/3' flute. I once heard an example on a Midmer-Losh church = organ >that was very convincing, even though the flute mutation was unified from >the Stopped Diapason. A true 2-2/3' should be even better. > >In addition, you don't need a metalworking shop to make real reed >pipes. Everything except the tongue and wire can be made of wood. It >isn't simple, though! > >Michael, how about a report on your experience with the paper pipes? > >Larry Chace > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >   _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:47:58 -0500   I made free-reed pipes for my street organ from pump organ reeds mounted = in wood shallots. The resonators are flaired wood and sound nicely on = pressure.   Rick    
(back) Subject: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:51:40 -0500   If both sets of pipes are stopped, they should both be bearded -like the Bourdon. The other set *could* be a Diapason or Gedeckt, but maybe not.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: STEVE PITTS <steve.pitts@adtran.com> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes     > I have two large 16 ft stopped wooden bass octaves.The tallest pipe of each > set is about 9 or 10 ft long and about 1 ft wide.One set has side and bottom > "beards" (terminology?) on the mouth of the pipe.The other set does not.Also > the set with the side beards has the foot of the pipe mounted on the = front > of the pipe.Is this done just to save ceiling height? I am guessing the > offset chest for these pipes would lay on its side.Does anyone have a guess > as to what kind of pipes these are? I would assume that at least one of them > is a Bourdon... > > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:14:35 -0800   VEAGUE wrote: > > If both sets of pipes are stopped, they should both be bearded -like the > Bourdon. The other set *could* be a Diapason or Gedeckt, but maybe not.     I have never seen a bearded bourdon. I have a 16' bourdon and a 16' Lieblich Gedekt, on which none of the pipes are bearded; would this be an experiment worth pursuing, given that one has the time?   Mac Hayes   Geez, I can see this now as a modernization project - a control on the console to apply or remove the beards, at the player's whim. ("Bourdon becomes Stopped Violone")  
(back) Subject: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:16:15 -0500   My Wurli Bourdon and Tibia are both eared and bearded for tone = stabilaztion. The Diapason is just eared.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: Mac Hayes <mach37@ptw.com> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes     > VEAGUE wrote: > > > > If both sets of pipes are stopped, they should both be bearded -like = the > > Bourdon. The other set *could* be a Diapason or Gedeckt, but maybe = not. > > > I have never seen a bearded bourdon. I have a 16' bourdon and a 16' > Lieblich Gedekt, on which none of the pipes are bearded; would this be > an experiment worth pursuing, given that one has the time? > > Mac Hayes > > Geez, I can see this now as a modernization project - a control on the > console to apply or remove the beards, at the player's whim. ("Bourdon > becomes Stopped Violone") > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 19:19:03 -0800   VEAGUE wrote: > > My Wurli Bourdon and Tibia are both eared and bearded for tone = stabilaztion. > The Diapason is just eared.     Could I hazard a guess that the beards are not needed on low-pressure wind, but are helpful on higher pressures?   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Making reeds From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:28:55 -0500   Rick Veague <dutchorgan@svs.net> wrote:   >I made free-reed pipes for my street organ from pump organ reeds mounted = in >wood shallots. The resonators are flaired wood and sound nicely on = pressure.   This might well be an interesting area for experimentation, since it eliminates the difficult tasks associated with forming and curving reed pipe tongues.   I recall seeing an 8' Basson, a bottom octave to an 8' Oboe stop, in an 1880s Marklove tracker organ. The Basson (bottom octave only!) was made = of half-length tapered wooden resonators with a slot on the bottom of each one. The slot was covered by a "reed organ" note (frame plus tongue) and the entire bottom of the resonator (plus reed) was enclosed in a wooden foot. There was no regulating device; the resonators were cut to length. The effect was quite gentle and pleasant.   On my first residence organ, 1960-1962, I used a similar approach for the Pedal's one and only stop, an 8' Reed Bass. The chest was 8' CC of a Kimball Stopped Diapason, modified into a box by cuttin off the mouth portion, fitting simple ends, and making one side (the top?) removable. The top got slots, each of which was covered by a pallet that was directly opened by being push down by the front end of the pedal key. On top of = the slot I mounted old reed organ reeds. Since the operate by suction, the blower (home built!) had a 3rd section arranged to provide a partial vacuum. It wasn't totally terrible.   Remember that Aeolian (and perhaps others) made some very convincing Clarinet stops by using reed organ reeds inside resonators. The one I = have is entirely of zinc except for the pipe toes (lead), the reed units = (brass, right out of a reed organ), and the little brass strips that hold the reed units. The reeds are mounted on a slanted bottom to the upper resonator, which fits down into the rather long foot portion. A "bell" surmounts the top portion and is arranged so that it can be turned, raising or lowering it and thereby influencing the pitch. The effect is VERY much like a = real orchestral Clarinet.   By the way, our good friends in the Reed Organ Society might not be = totally thrilled at the idea of us gathering up old reed organs just to extract = the reeds for experimentation, especially the quite rare reeds from CCC to = EEE. (Most American reed organs start at 12' FFF.) As some folks there have written, while new organ *pipes* are still being made, reed organ reeds = are *not* being made, and so the supply is limited.   Here endeth the blatheration...   Larry Chace      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; newanswer!) From: "Jan S. VanDerStad" <dorian@nac.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:25:16 -0500   Good Evening, Mr. Schneider and list,   I have had much difficulty with D. V. A. in that unless you incorporate a scientifically-sized expansion chamber between each valve and pipe you seem to destroy the tonal characteristics. Of course, this may or may not be true, depending on how the voicing of the pipes. I've encountered both instances.   Now, Richard Schneider writes, > We ... hit upon a solution in the form of some small brass round buttons > made up of a ring between which is some wire mesh screening similar to > Hardware cloth. Being made out of brass, they are actually quite > attractive and serve to "dress-up" the hole, as well as to serve to > protect it from the entrance of foreign matter.   My question is: has this method also helped to "soften" the shock of air to the pipe as the valve is opened?   Appreciatively,   Jan S. VanDerStad  
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:02:15 -0800   That would be my guess as well. I've got a Wurlitzer Tibia and a Morton Tibia, both on 10", and a Wangerin Tibia on 5". The Wurliter and Morton both have ears and beards on the 16' octaves, while the Wangerin does not. Yes, all 3 go down to 16'. I like BASS!   At 19:19 01/24/2001 -0800, Mac Hayes wrote: >VEAGUE wrote: >> >> My Wurli Bourdon and Tibia are both eared and bearded for tone stabilaztion. >> The Diapason is just eared. > > >Could I hazard a guess that the beards are not needed on low-pressure >wind, but are helpful on higher pressures? > >Mac Hayes > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > > >   Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [Residence Organs] identifying wooden pipes From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:02:15 -0800   That would be my guess as well. I've got a Wurlitzer Tibia and a Morton Tibia, both on 10", and a Wangerin Tibia on 5". The Wurliter and Morton both have ears and beards on the 16' octaves, while the Wangerin does not. Yes, all 3 go down to 16'. I like BASS!   At 19:19 01/24/2001 -0800, Mac Hayes wrote: >VEAGUE wrote: >> >> My Wurli Bourdon and Tibia are both eared and bearded for tone stabilaztion. >> The Diapason is just eared. > > >Could I hazard a guess that the beards are not needed on low-pressure >wind, but are helpful on higher pressures? > >Mac Hayes > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > > >   Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Re: Making reeds From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 23:03:00 -0600   At 10:28 PM -0500 1/24/01, Larry Chace wrote: >Rick Veague <dutchorgan@svs.net> wrote: > >>I made free-reed pipes for my street organ from pump organ reeds mounted = in >>wood shallots. The resonators are flaired wood and sound nicely on = pressure. > >This might well be an interesting area for experimentation, since it >eliminates the difficult tasks associated with forming and curving reed >pipe tongues. > >I recall seeing an 8' Basson, a bottom octave to an 8' Oboe stop, in an >1880s Marklove tracker organ. The Basson (bottom octave only!) was made = of >half-length tapered wooden resonators with a slot on the bottom of each >one. The slot was covered by a "reed organ" note (frame plus tongue) and >the entire bottom of the resonator (plus reed) was enclosed in a wooden >foot. There was no regulating device; the resonators were cut to length. >The effect was quite gentle and pleasant.   What you are referring to is a :"Free-Reed" rank. they were quite prevalent especially on some of the lower pressures used way back when. The Walcker/Aeolian-Skinner at Metheum has several free-reed ranks including the 32' Bombarde or whatever it is called.     > >On my first residence organ, 1960-1962, I used a similar approach for the >Pedal's one and only stop, an 8' Reed Bass. The chest was 8' CC of a >Kimball Stopped Diapason, modified into a box by cuttin off the mouth >portion, fitting simple ends, and making one side (the top?) removable. >The top got slots, each of which was covered by a pallet that was = directly >opened by being push down by the front end of the pedal key. On top of = the >slot I mounted old reed organ reeds. Since the operate by suction, the >blower (home built!) had a 3rd section arranged to provide a partial >vacuum. It wasn't totally terrible.   WICKS did this in many of their small "Fuga" (I think that was the name of the series) organs from back in the 30's and 40's. There was a small reed box with 12 reeds for the bottom octave of the 16' Flute. If i am not mistaken WICKS got the reeds from the Estey Co. I had one of those reed boxes many years ago and wish i had never gotten rid of it.     >Remember that Aeolian (and perhaps others) made some very convincing >Clarinet stops by using reed organ reeds inside resonators. The one I = have >is entirely of zinc except for the pipe toes (lead), the reed units = (brass, >right out of a reed organ), and the little brass strips that hold the = reed >units. The reeds are mounted on a slanted bottom to the upper resonator, >which fits down into the rather long foot portion. A "bell" surmounts = the >top portion and is arranged so that it can be turned, raising or lowering >it and thereby influencing the pitch. The effect is VERY much like a = real >orchestral Clarinet.   I have a feeling that these free-reeds were designed and voiced for these stops and were most likely unlike the reeds in the normal American Reed Organ. Although I have both an American Reed Organ and a Harmonium (operates on pressure rather than suction) I have never compared the sizes of the reeds from the two instruments. But it is my understanding that the reeds in a pressure instrument are of a bigger size than the ones for a suction instrument for the same note.     >By the way, our good friends in the Reed Organ Society might not be = totally >thrilled at the idea of us gathering up old reed organs just to extract = the >reeds for experimentation, especially the quite rare reeds from CCC to = EEE. >(Most American reed organs start at 12' FFF.) As some folks there have >written, while new organ *pipes* are still being made, reed organ reeds = are >*not* being made, and so the supply is limited.   Maybe reed organ reeds are not being made any longer I remember that at one of the AIO Conventions there was a lecture on Organ Reeds and that there is a company in Germany (?) that is making Free-Reed Organ pipes today. I would have to go find the information in my files to remember the company. Based on that lecture I would gather that although American builders are not using Free-Reed ranks there are builders in Europe that are still (or maybe again) using them.   I do need to find that information to refresh my memory but I seem to remember that the pipe was constructed with a square wooden "shallot" that the reed and its frame was mounted to instead of our usual brass shallot with the reed beating against the face. I think there was also a tuning wire for adjusting the pitch. And from visiting Methuem this last summer during the OHS Convention I think i remember seeing tuning wires coming out of the boots of the Free-Reed pedal reed.   Since I mentioned both Methuem Music Hall and an AIO Convention I will put in a "plug" for this year's AIO Convention which will be in Boston this October. One of the organs being demonstrated is the Walcker/Aeolian-Skinner at Methuem along with many other very fine instruments including Nelson Barden's "11 Dancing Swellboxes" - the Boston University Symphonic Organ. AIO Conventions are open to everyone and it is a very good way to meet professional organ builders in a very unstressed setting plus it is also a chance to meet and talk to various suppliers to the industry and seen their products. A Tentative Schedule for the convention is posted on the AIO Web Site at: http://www.pipeorgan.org - click on the link for the 2001 Convention in the table of contents.   David