DIYAPASON-L Digest #244 - Thursday, January 25, 2001
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject;   newanswe
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Fw: [Residence Organs]  DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject;  newanswer
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Making reeds
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "Tom Dimock" <tad1@cornell.edu>
Re: Making reeds
  by "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Re: Making reeds
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl>
Daniels Interview# 2 please read
  by "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Making reeds
  by "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com>
Making Reeds
  by "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com>
I need an Answer to Question from Reporter
  by "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca>
Re: [Residence Organs]  I need an Answer to Question from Reporter
  by "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com>
Catalogs - OSI, Laukauf, etc.
  by <KZimme7737@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; newanswer!) From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:43:21 -0500   At 10:25 PM -0500 1/24/01, Jan S. VanDerStad wrote: >Good Evening, Mr. Schneider and list, > >I have had much difficulty with D. V. A. in that unless you incorporate >a scientifically-sized expansion chamber between each valve and pipe you >seem to destroy the tonal characteristics. Of course, this may or may >not be true, depending on how the voicing of the pipes. I've >encountered both instances. >   As I see it DVA's are identical in operation to regular pouches, just that the magnets are incorporated into the same fixture for convenience. So I wonder why they would seem to need the chamber and the others not. Actually I've also wondered that as there is not that much difference in operation between pouch valves and DE valves, then if DE valves should have an expansion chamber then pouch valves should also use one. Maybe it's the difference in speed but I've heard some claim that EP is faster than DE although the opposite seems to be more stated.   Thanks, Eric    
(back) Subject: Fw: [Residence Organs] DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; newanswer!) From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 07:56:06 -0500   DVA's can handle higher pressure and DE valves can not: DE's work best on not more than perhaps 1-5" pressure. As for expansion chambers, I've not had too much experience with them = other than my Wurli.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Sagmuller <ess4@psu.edu> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] DVA's or EP Pouch valves (Old Subject; newanswer!)     > At 10:25 PM -0500 1/24/01, Jan S. VanDerStad wrote: > >Good Evening, Mr. Schneider and list, > > > >I have had much difficulty with D. V. A. in that unless you incorporate > >a scientifically-sized expansion chamber between each valve and pipe = you > >seem to destroy the tonal characteristics. Of course, this may or may > >not be true, depending on how the voicing of the pipes. I've > >encountered both instances. > > > > As I see it DVA's are identical in operation to regular pouches, just > that the magnets are incorporated into the same fixture for > convenience. So I wonder why they would seem to need the chamber and > the others not. Actually I've also wondered that as there is not that > much difference in operation between pouch valves and DE valves, then > if DE valves should have an expansion chamber then pouch valves > should also use one. Maybe it's the difference in speed but I've > heard some claim that EP is faster than DE although the opposite > seems to be more stated. > > Thanks, > Eric > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Making reeds From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:05:16 -0500   Many thanks to David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> for his interesting comments about free reeds and other things.   About the reeds, I'd only like to add that the "reed organ" free reeds differ from "pipe organ" free reeds in that, typically, the pipe organ = type have a tuning wire, as David mentioned. This seems to be implemented by having a small (brass?) structure that can slide up and down the frame and =   that pinches the tongue, thereby establishing the tongue's effective vibrating length. Reed organ reeds (in the USA!) typically do not have a tuning wire. The tongue simply vibrates along its full length. Tuning is =   accomplished by scraping the tongue (carefully!).   The free reed pipes to which I was referring used reed organ reeds, as do the Aeolian free-reed Clarinet pipes. Casual examination suggests that Aeolian in fact used standard reed organ reeds; they look like it. (Aeolian made lots of reed organs and I'd *guess* that they had the facility for making their own free reeds.)   The Wicks 16' free reed bass units were built by Estey. I have one, but I =   haven't looked to see if the reeds are normal (manual) scale or the = special larger ones used by Estey for the big pedal stops in their 2m/p reed organs. The boxes also are reputed to contain cardboard resonators for each of the 12 notes. The effect seems roughly like a small-ish 16' = Basson or Clarinet.   David mentioned the AIO convention this coming October. On the schedule, Saturday night (before the regular convention days) shows "theatre organ concert". I believe that this is intended to be a concert at the Shanklin =   Conference Center near Groton, Massachusetts. That 4/34 Wurlitzer, an expanded replica of the orginal Boston Metropolitan Theatre 4/26 (and = using the original console and some ranks), is a stupendous intrument, = well-worth a visit. It is also arranged so that folks can tour the chambers. I very =   much hope that *every* AIO convention attendee can be there for the concert, tours, and genuine hospitality shown by the Shanklin family. = Even tracker builders, I'd venture to say, will enjoy it!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "Tom Dimock" <tad1@cornell.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:25:25 -0500   Larry - You might want to share with the list the very interesting information on the metals used in traditional reed pipes that we discussed in the hallway the other day. I'm sure many here are unaware of the fact that the ordinary appearing brass in them is anything but.. (For those = who don't know it, Larry Chace and I work for the same department at Cornell, and end up discussing things organic before, after, and sometime during meetings...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Tom Dimock ---- Cornell University ---- tad1@cornell.edu "There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader." M. = Gandhi  
(back) Subject: Re: Making reeds From: "Larry Chace" <rlc1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:10:02 -0500   Tom Dimock asked me to repeat some comments about reed brass. The following note, originally posted to PIPORG-L by Allen Miller on 10 May 1995, was part of a discussion about the blocks used by reed voicers to curve the tongues.   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Start of quoted material It sounds like we are going to start a new generation of reed voicers. = Wjo says the pipe organ is dead? Of course, it takes a bit more than having a reed curving block. ;-)   After you get your block, you have to find reed brass. Hint: it is not available in the USA. It comes from England, 100 pounds minimum order per thickness! I personally located the source and purchased the lot of brass which has served the major builders for the past 15 years or more while I was with Austin. (Austin then supplied the brass to Schantz, Moller, = etc.)   Reed brass is rolled full-hard in increments of .001" from .005" up to = about ..030" in thickness. 100# of .005" is the World supply for the pipe organ industry for at least a century! The USA brass industry was (is still?) located here in Connecticut where brass clock-making was a major industry. Reed brass was always rolled using small "manual" machines. (NOT hand operated as such, but hand adjusted.) All of that machinery has been replaced by high-volume automated equipment. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D End of quote material   The German book I mentioned a few days ago, Karl Bormann's "Heimorgelbau" describes the process of roll the brass to thickness, annealing it, and so =   on. Allen Miller mentioned that this is part of the difficulty of making "large" quantities of reed brass. You roll it until it reaches the proper =   hardness and then you *hope* that the thickness is what you want! If not, =   you can anneal it and start over, but there are limits to how much you can =   force the brass to have the proper thickness and hardness. This fussing with it is impossible with the large-capacity automated equipment = mentioned above.   I believe that Organ Supply will sell reed tongues and they may also sell the brass, but you'd have to contact them to find out.   Old tongues from derilict ranks would probably be a better source for us amateurs!   Larry Chace    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Re: Making reeds From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:57:40 EST     --part1_ac.1012f8a5.27a1a6f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi all, I have a "reed less" Aeolian clarinet and it sounds like a real clarinet. I will take pictures of the business end of this thing if any = one want's to see it. There is a plate that the reed is mounted in. The reed = is held at about a 45 degree angle in the boot. The wind passes through a = very fine cut around the tongue causing it to vibrate I think. It does not beat = on a Schalott making it hard to make it very loud. The tongue flaps in the plate, every time it passes through the plate it causes a pulse in the air =   like a normal reeded pipe. I have heard these are trick to make work, hope I never break a tongue! Well, have fun today. Dennis   --part1_ac.1012f8a5.27a1a6f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi all, I have a "reed = less" Aeolian clarinet and it sounds like a real <BR>clarinet. I will take pictures of the business end of this thing if = any one <BR>want's to see it. There is a plate that the reed is mounted in. The = reed is <BR>held at about a 45 degree angle in the boot. The wind passes through a = very <BR>fine cut around the tongue causing it to vibrate I think. It does not = beat on <BR>a Schalott making it hard to make it very loud. The tongue flaps in = the <BR>plate, every time it passes through the plate it causes a pulse in the = air <BR>like a normal reeded pipe. <BR>I have heard these are trick to make work, hope I never break a = tongue! <BR>Well, have fun today. <BR>Dennis</FONT></HTML>   --part1_ac.1012f8a5.27a1a6f4_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:01:40 -0500   > >I believe that Organ Supply will sell reed tongues and they may also sell >the brass, but you'd have to contact them to find out. > >Old tongues from derilict ranks would probably be a better source for us >amateurs! > >Larry Chace   Gottaget my 2c. worth of needing-to-clean-out-the-place in:   "Yes we save reeds from derelict pipes" Anyone interested?   John V      
(back) Subject: pipe scales,ep chest rebuilding From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:31:12 -0600   Dear Alwyn:   You wrote: >Thanx, but what I meant to ask was: In what way does a baroque- or >classical-voiced pipe, rank or organ differ from a romantically-voiced = one. >Are the harmonics different? Are the types of ranks in the organ = different? >Are the pipe sizes different? etc? > >Alwyn Jones >Long Island, NY   First let me point out that I am not an expert on this. From what I have read and heard the answers are yes to all the questions.   First of all the scale is different (i.e., pipe sizes). The scales of prinzipal and flute pipes in romantic organs are usually larger. This, as =   pointed out before on the list, changes the harmonic structure. So that's = a yes on question 1 and 3. Question 2 is also a yes. Pipemaking had = evolved by the time the romantic era approached and so more types of pipes (especially reed stops) were available. Large romantic organs had a lot more variety than a large classical or baroque organ.   Hope this helps,     Bart Kleineweber Chicago, IL http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ prinzipal8@hotmail.com   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:00:40 +0100   If you like to buy reed brass, it is for sale in every size you want from Laukhuff Orgelbau Germany. They cut it for you in every width you like and every thickness. You don't have to buy a whole plate. Only the length is the length of the brassplate. Normally 52 cm. They can send you a scale of every thickness they have by fax or email.   Greetings   Louis Huivenaar Netherlands Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe +31 75 684 4858 ( Tel/Fax Factory) +31 75 684 6552 ( Privat) +31 653 117 697 ( Mobil) Website: www.harmonium.com   -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens = Larry Chace Verzonden: donderdag 25 januari 2001 16:10 Aan: Residence Organ List Onderwerp: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds   Tom Dimock asked me to repeat some comments about reed brass. The following note, originally posted to PIPORG-L by Allen Miller on 10 May 1995, was part of a discussion about the blocks used by reed voicers to curve the tongues.   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Start of quoted material It sounds like we are going to start a new generation of reed voicers. = Wjo says the pipe organ is dead? Of course, it takes a bit more than having a reed curving block. ;-)   After you get your block, you have to find reed brass. Hint: it is not available in the USA. It comes from England, 100 pounds minimum order per thickness! I personally located the source and purchased the lot of brass which has served the major builders for the past 15 years or more while I was with Austin. (Austin then supplied the brass to Schantz, Moller, = etc.)   Reed brass is rolled full-hard in increments of .001" from .005" up to = about ..030" in thickness. 100# of .005" is the World supply for the pipe organ industry for at least a century! The USA brass industry was (is still?) located here in Connecticut where brass clock-making was a major industry. Reed brass was always rolled using small "manual" machines. (NOT hand operated as such, but hand adjusted.) All of that machinery has been replaced by high-volume automated equipment. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D End of quote material   The German book I mentioned a few days ago, Karl Bormann's "Heimorgelbau" describes the process of roll the brass to thickness, annealing it, and so on. Allen Miller mentioned that this is part of the difficulty of making "large" quantities of reed brass. You roll it until it reaches the proper hardness and then you *hope* that the thickness is what you want! If not, you can anneal it and start over, but there are limits to how much you can force the brass to have the proper thickness and hardness. This fussing with it is impossible with the large-capacity automated equipment = mentioned above.   I believe that Organ Supply will sell reed tongues and they may also sell the brass, but you'd have to contact them to find out.   Old tongues from derilict ranks would probably be a better source for us amateurs!   Larry Chace     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Daniels Interview# 2 please read From: "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:07:21 -0400   Guess what The Newspaper is so interested that they are coming back on Tuesday to get more info and pictures.She said she wants to get everything accurate and is going to also let me proof read it before she publishes it She is going to email me a copy before she puts it in the paper ,So that way ,I will be able to send it to each of you on the list WOW this is awesome Danielwh 2000 E. Power Biggs Fellow    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Making reeds From: "Hugh Knapton" <knapton@superaje.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:00:30 -0500   I really can't afford the time, BUT.....   Larry's message about reed brass sent horrors to me! My supply is virtually exhausted.   When I started to run low a few years back, I contacted O.S.I. They wouldn't at that time sell the brass, but they would sell tongues. I have often had difficulty dealing with them so I decided to do a little research.   A brief outline of what I came up with (having never needed to buy a supply before!):   Audsley suggests that the brass should be "fine elastic brass".   Bonavia-Hunt says that "there is considerable divergence of opinion in the trade as to the comparative merits of hard and soft brass". He later states " Mr. Horace Clarke has employed hard rolled aluminium for the top octave of a 4' Clarion" (THINK ABOUT THAT!). He further states " He (Clarke) very kindly supplied me with a top octave to a Trumpet, fitted with aluminium tongues, and I thereupon proceeded to fit aluminium tongues to all of the pipes down to middle C." ... there's more, and I suggest anyone really interested should read it.   Robertson states " the tongues are made of sheet brass, hammered or drawn to make it hard and elastic, and filed or planed dead smooth"   Norman (The Organ Today ... 1967 or so with a later reprint .... I would love to buy a couple of extra copies for my sons if anyone knows of copies available). states "The brass from which the tongue is cut must be of the correct grade. In the past, fairly soft brass was used with, it is said, some tonal advantage. However, over the years the curve or 'set' of a reed tongue gradually deteriorates as a result of movement of the tuning spring over it, and this deterioration is accelerated if the brass is too soft. It is usual nowadays to use "half hard brass".   As with anything the first 2 authors state, I apply very many "grains of salt". Robertson has considerable more respect (my opinion). Norman ... who I believe is still living (98 years old but in failing health) lived through great transitions in design .... we were at one time associated with HNB, and I still have a lot of (biased) respect for his writings.   My points:   First of all (assuming that Norman isn't totally "out to lunch") .. "half hard brass" is regularly available. The act of voicing seems to impart the extra tension required in the tongue.   2. There are several techniques (hammering etc.) that can temper brass.   3. Those of us that do it professionally cannot afford to take risks, but those of you that are pursuing it as a hobby..... try other materials ... maybe you can straighten us "pros" out. There is no doubt that there are probably people on this list that probably know a great deal more about various metals than we do (remember we have to learn "many trades")   4. Recently (?!), at the turn of each century, new ideas have "redirected thought". Let's "shake the world up a little".   Hugh  
(back) Subject: Making Reeds From: "homer valenzona" <dochome@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:04:07   Dear List, As mentioned earlier, Laukhuff sells them. Actually, seeing that they sell =   reed brass on their catalogue encouraged me to try making the reeds = myself. Their catalogues also provide info on shallot type and resonator and reed =   scales of the reeds they sell. Excellent diagrams of a large number of = reeds including baroque and apparently "obsolete" reed stops are also shown. = all the best. Homer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.    
(back) Subject: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter From: "DanielW Hopkins" <danielwh1@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:52:50 -0400     I got a question The reporter asked me a question and I need an answer to it   the question WHy is there less keys on a pipe Organ than most reed organs or Pianos? please answer as soon as possible thanks Danielwh    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] I need an Answer to Question from Reporter From: "Kelvin Smith" <KelvinSmith@untraveledroad.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:15:41 -0700   The piano has only one keyboard and no stops. The only way to get those additional notes is to extend the length of the keyboard. The pedals of = the organ or the 16' stops can be seen as covering the lower octave of the piano and the 4' stops cover the upward reaches. How often on the piano do you play the bottom octave without doubling it an octave higher? This is the exact effect of using 16 and 8 on the pedal. For a pipe organ is just more logical, practical and cost effective to use the shorter keyboards with more of them and choose stops to get the pitch you want.   Kelvin   >I got a question >The reporter asked me a question and I need an answer to it > > the question > WHy is there less keys on a pipe Organ than most reed organs or Pianos? > please answer as soon as possible > thanks > Danielwh > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Catalogs - OSI, Laukauf, etc. From: <KZimme7737@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:58:25 EST   List,   I happened upon the Laukoff website while surfing around on Allan = Ontko's website. Although it takes a while for the screen to refresh as I have = Adobe Acrobat read the catalogs, I spent a great deal of time at the site. = There are at least 9 different catalogs each of which deals with products for various phases of the pipe organ. I was especially fascinated by the sections on Flue Pipes, Windchests, and Console Parts.   I have, also, a 1999 Catalog from O.S.I. that includes a price list. = I'm assuming that professional organbuilders get a better price than John Q. Hobbiest. Since I have not been able to start on my project yet, I = haven't ordered anything.   Question: Who has ordered from OSI and/or Laukauf? How are the prices. = Do they sell to nonprofessionals? What kinds of things have your ordered? _______________________   I visited a pipe organ builder a year ago. I was excited as I drove to = his shop. I confess that I was a little underwhelmed. It was a medium sized warehouse with a loading dock in a strip with many other buisinesses. He = was in the process of rebuilding an organ. We had a great discussion on some possibilities for my future pipe organ.   After my visit with him and, after reviewing these catalogs, I get the feeling that - with the exception of a few craftsmen and large = organbuilding firms - many organ builders do not "build" organs, pipes and all. They = order pipes partially voiced to their specs, they order windchests according to their specs, and they "assemble" the organ from components built = elsewhere. Their art seems to be in helping the customer design an organ, in their selection of pipes, their unique style in voicing, etc.   IOW, I can order the "guts" of a 2 manual/pedal tracker action organ that includes keyboards, pedalboard, mechanical action components (including couplers) from a company. I can then order the windchest and brand new pipes. Don't forget blower and reservoir. I can then put it together and connect the backfalls from the keyboard/coupler assembly to the pulldowns under the windchest using stickers and trackers. Maybe I could drum up enough cabinetmaking ability to build a cabinet. Voila! These brand new components would be very expensive, but likely to be less so than having a =   new pipe organ custom built for me. Surely I'm missing something here. = BTW, I'M BEING FACETIOUS, SO PLEASE DON'T JUMP ONTO ME ABOUT THIS.   Anyway, the bottom line is what experience have y'all had with ordering components from these supply houses?   Sincerely and facetiously, Keith Zimmerman, M.D. Commerce, Georgia