DIYAPASON-L Digest #287 - Sunday, March 25, 2001
 
Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes (long)
  by "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes (long)
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Console Relay
  by "Jason Comet" <diapason32@hotmail.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Console Relay
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Console Relay
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Mouser (was: console relay)
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Diodes from Mouser
  by "4everaptor" <JABowers@execpc.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes (long) From: "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 23:42:09 -0600   Fellow enthusiasts, and tolerant question answerers;   I thank you all for your advice and encouragement. I'm going to mull this over for a bit, and perhaps build one or two pipes to test some = fabrication ideas.   I can't see leaving the voicer with a mouth made of copper: it's much more difficult to cut than tin/lead. I'm still sort of OK with the idea of keeping the body, foot (and languid?) copper, and making the mouth = tin/lead with a high tin content. A copper foot, brazed to the pipe body, could be made very strong and rigid, even if part of the circumference was cut away and replaced with the (relatively weak) tin/lead mouth. Perhaps, at the worst, 1/2" diameter hard copper tubes could be brazed to the backs of the bottom octave's pipes as mechanical "spines". That would also be a nice reinforcement for the hanger.   Regarding tuning, I thank David Scribner for his elbow-in-the-ribs about cone tuning the bottom octaves of a 16' open rank! I'm afraid I wrote = that initial paragraph rather off-handedly, thinking "yup, I hate slotted diapasons; we'll cone tune this sucker" without considering those larger pipes. I think the biggest tuning cone I own has a max diameter of about 1.5", useful for all 16' open ranks having VERY small scale. I really = don't care for slotted diapasons, and on the big octaves will probably go with a sprung sleeve. Eric Sagmuller and others warn about copper and brass work hardening, making cone tuning a repair nightmare. I had hoped to avoid = this by quench annealing the top ends of the pipes (copper and brass anneal {relax and soften} when quenched, unlike carbon steel which, of course, hardens when quenched) but now I'm worried that annealing won't be sufficient. I'll try both annealing/cone-tuning and sleeves on my test pipes, and see what seems to work best. Lots of problems with sleeves, of course: if they're maladjusted they can slip, or crush the pipe, and if they don't wrap 360 degrees you're left with a slot after all. Has anyone ever seen a big pipe with a vertical screw adjuster on a sleeve? Maybe a hex Allen screw, head-pointing-down, that moves the sleeve up or down? Anyway, the ideas need some work!   Thank you again for the help, and best of luck to you all.   David Doerschuk   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 11:54 PM Subject: DIYAPASON-L Digest #286 - 03/23/01     DIYAPASON-L Digest #286 - Friday, March 23, 2001   [Residence Organs] Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes (long) by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes (long) by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> RE: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes (long ) by <mblackwell@wallace.com> Re: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes(long ) by "John Durgan" <kimbalman@earthlink.net> Re: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes(long ) by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> [Residence Organs] Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> RE: [Residence Organs] Console Relay by "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net> Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes (long) From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:36:51 -0600   David   Just a couple of comments:   >To recap, I'm interested in building a rank of small-scale 16' open >diapasons out of copper (or brass, actually). I want to build them with >French mouths, using tin/lead for the mouth and languid, low cutups, minute >nicking, and 2.5" wind. I prefer cone tuning over scrolls or sleeves on >diapasons, so I plan to either anneal the top ends, or grind them to a >lesser thickness to lessen the force needed to tune (tin/lead is very >plastic compared to copper or brass).   Normally, pipes of that size have the mouth and foot of the same material. i would think that the weight of the pipe above the mouth would cause a tin/spotted metal mouth and foot to collapse. Also, i have never seen or heard of a pipe that large being cone tuned. Usually cone tuning is used on a pipe smaller than a 4' "C" - normally the large pipes are tuned with other methods. You might think about doing what is usually done for facade pipes and put a slot with a tuning slide on the back if you don't like the look of a tuning slide around the top. Personally, i would hate to have to try to cone tune a pipe of that size. Also, my personal feeling is that cone tuning isn't all that it is cracked up to be by some people. It is much harder to do and has many, many more chances for damage to the pipes.     >Mandrels: >2. Maple dowels and other hardwood rounds have been used successfully by >one list member as wooden mandrels to form copper pipes.   Since hardwood dowels are hard to find in larger sizes such as would be needed for something of the scale you are thinking of making I would suggest the sue of iron/steel pipe as a mandrel for those. Although we don't have a pipe shop at our company we do have to repair pipes from time to time and for the large ones we use steel pipe as the mandrel   >Soldering / Joining: >1. A sectionalized pipe has been done before: a WurliTzer 16' Tuba that had >been flattened was repaired by cutting it into sections, re-shaping the >cylinders, and then re-soldering! I should have known better than to = make >jokes! >4. Regarding the longitudinal seam of the pipe body and the foot: assuming >that the copper wall thickness is 0.040" or less, does anyone see any >advantage to a particular joint over a simple lap joint?   In the organ we are currently installing here in Dallas all of the 16' octaves of the reed resonators are in sections that slip together. And i have seen 16' octaves of flue pipes that join in the same way, usually interior pipes (not facade or case pipes) Also, remember, that a full length 16' no matter what the scale, is a B*tch to handle unless you have a whole crew of people that are used to handling and erecting them. I know, we are hanging more 16' facade pipes this afternoon <G>     >Sanity Check: >4. Frankly, and I don't mean to be alarmist here, lead gives me the >willies. I use gloves when handling tin/lead pipes, and worry about >absorbing lead from molten metal, planing sheets, cutting, etc. Call me = a >fool, but heavy metal poisoning is a singularly unpleasant way to check out.   With proper precautions there is no problem with the absorbing of lead - usually the amount of lead is very small. Pipe makers have worked with lead for many years and there doesn't seem to be any major incidences of lead poisoning. And tin/spotted metal is much easier to work with than copper.   David    
(back) Subject: Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes (long) From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:49:14 -0800   Well, David, you seem to have invented a novel way to use up your time! ;-) Actually, this would be a great experiment, and might actually put to rest some of the 'what-material-is-better' thoughts. I recall a magazine article about a musical instrument maker who made clarinets out of several media using the same mouthpiece and bell, and got the same tone out of several different materials, including a section of garden hose.   At any rate, keep up the good work!   At 23:27 03/21/2001 -0600, David Doerschuk wrote: >I am gradually talking myself into building a pipe body that, above the >mouth, has several interchangeable cylinders for the upper body.     Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.jps.net/rrloesch alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes (long = ) From: <mblackwell@wallace.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:57:43 -0600   I've heard some flute players claiming a noticeable difference in sound between silver and titanium flutes. If memory serves, the titanium is supposed to be brighter.   I've not the finances or connections to make a personal observation ;-)   Mike  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes(long = ) From: "John Durgan" <kimbalman@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:49:17 -0600   HI,   As a former flutist or flautist for you pureists, I believe that platinum was the metal of choice after sterling silver. Makers like Powell or = Haynes made most of these instruments for the professionals   John Durgan Mississippi    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re:Forming small-scale copper pipes(long = ) From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:10:22 -0600   --=3D_ADF62005.7514B819 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   I have seen a lot of metal pipes the best I think and this is my own =3D opinion was the stuff Kilgen used it was a kind of rough metal any ieda = =3D what that might have been   >>> kimbalman@earthlink.net 03/22/01 11:49AM >>>=3D20 HI,=3D20   As a former flutist or flautist for you pureists, I believe that =3D platinum=3D20 was the metal of choice after sterling silver. Makers like Powell or =3D Haynes=3D20 made most of these instruments for the professionals=3D20   John Durgan=3D20 Mississippi=3D20     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20   --=3D_ADF62005.7514B819 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"><FONT=3D20 size=3D3D1>I have seen a lot of metal pipes the best I think and this is = my =3D own=3D20 opinion was the stuff Kilgen used it was a kind of rough metal any ieda = =3D what=3D20 that might have been</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; kimbalman@earthlink.net = =3D 03/22/01=3D20 11:49AM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>HI, <BR><BR>As a former flutist or flautist for = =3D you=3D20 pureists, I believe that platinum <BR>was the metal of choice after =3D sterling=3D20 silver. Makers like Powell or Haynes <BR>made most of these instruments = =3D for the=3D20 professionals <BR><BR>John Durgan <BR>Mississippi <BR><BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: = =3D a=3D20 Discussion list for owners and builders of their own <BR>Residence Pipe = =3D Organs.=3D20 <BR>HOMEPAGE : <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= o=3D rg</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= /A=3D ></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= ha=3D t.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_ADF62005.7514B819--  
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Forming small-scale copper pipes From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:35:31 -0500   At 7:36 AM -0600 3/22/01, David Scribner wrote:   > Personally, i would hate to have to try to cone tune a pipe of that >size. Also, my personal feeling is that cone tuning isn't all that >it is cracked up to be by some people. It is much harder to do and >has many, many more chances for damage to the pipes. > >   Also the experience I've had with copper and especially brass is that it is a fairly stiff and brittle metal if fatigued too much. I would hesitate to even consider cone tuning it. Copper also has a tendency to work harden.   Eric    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Console Relay From: "STEVE PITTS" <steve.pitts@adtran.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:16:27 -0600       I am wanting to build a residence organ which may incorporate up to 10 ranks.At the moment I have 4 unit chests I would like to connect to the console.I may get some more unit chests later, or maybe I will get a straight chest..for future expansion,not sure at this point.I have found = an organ builder that has a console and an 11 rank relay for sale.The relay actually goes with the console.The relay is described as mechanical, not solid state.Is there any disadvantage to using a mechanical relay as = opposed to a solid state relay?The console is fairly modern,has plenty of stops, = 11 on each division so I feel safe buying the console.The relay costs $900, = so needless to say, i would like to make sure I make the right decision = before buying it. Any ideas?  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:50:18 -0500   Steve-   Go with the mechanical relay. My Wurli is still going on her 1927 relay with very little problems. I had solid-state wired to it also, but it got hit by lightening, so I ripped it out and kept the ol' workhorse relay.   Rick    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:10:46 -0500   A couple of things to think about. Disadvantages Mechanical relays are noisier than solid state. They require a larger space. Requires much more DC power to operate. Contacts get dirty and wear out.   Advantages Low cost when buying used. Easy to troubleshoot and repair. You can easily fix them with bobby pins and duct tape. (well almost) Simple design makes them easy to wire and rewire.   Solid state is the way to go if you are building new. The reliability and extra features are worth the extra cost for most church installations. For = a residence organ however cost is almost always a major concern. Long life = (30 years or more) is rarely ever a factor in a residence organ where the = organ is usually sold or forgotten after a few years. In a church situation it = is expected that the organ will last forever and breakdowns are frowned upon. In a residence organ a minor breakdown is a chance to tinker!   I'd suggest that you look the relay over carefully and note any excessive wear on the contacts (gouges caused by arcing or use) or signs that many contacts are replacements or are bent.   Adding Spark suppression diodes is very critical to any relay of any kind as the "Back EMF" that is produced by any magnet when the power is turned off causes a large surge of power to flow backwards towards the relay's contacts. This is where the "spark" comes from. The voltage can reach 1000 Volts or more and damage WILL result in time.   Diodes also remove the noisy "clicking and popping sounds" on T.V. sets = and audio equipment when an organ is played. I'd check and see if the relay = has them already installed or you can add them at a later date yourself ( at about $.25 per diode plus labour)   $900 however does seem a bit much for a used relay. I'd try getting the price down a bit.   Nelson Denton   > I am wanting to build a residence organ which may incorporate up to 10 > ranks.At the moment I have 4 unit chests I would like to connect to the > console.I may get some more unit chests later, or maybe I will get a > straight chest..for future expansion,not sure at this point.I have found an > organ builder that has a console and an 11 rank relay for sale.The = relay > actually goes with the console.The relay is described as mechanical, not > solid state.Is there any disadvantage to using a mechanical relay as opposed > to a solid state relay?The console is fairly modern,has plenty of stops, 11 > on each division so I feel safe buying the console.The relay costs $900, so > needless to say, i would like to make sure I make the right decision before > buying it. > Any ideas?      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Console Relay From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:58:20 -0500   At 12:10 AM -0500 3/23/01, Nelson Denton wrote: > >Diodes also remove the noisy "clicking and popping sounds" on T.V. sets = and >audio equipment when an organ is played. I'd check and see if the relay = has >them already installed or you can add them at a later date yourself ( = at >about $.25 per diode plus labour) >   Mouser has the diodes 1N4007's at about $.03 ea. at quantities of 100 or more.