DIYAPASON-L Digest #327 - Thursday, May 24, 2001
 
Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid state relay
  by "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net>
Reeds with the curve ground into the shallot?
  by "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  How to disassemble a reed for cleaning?
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Needed: 16' reed
  by <DBnMOPS@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  organ update
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect an old	solid staterela
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect an	old	solidstaterelay
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Needed: 16' reed
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect an old	solid  staterel
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect an	old	solid staterela
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
Re: Reeds with the curve ground into the shallot?
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect an	old	solid  staterel
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Jon Calvo needs to connect	an	old	solid staterela
  by "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us>
 

(back) Subject: Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid state relay From: "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:24:31 -0500   Hullo folks!   Jon Calvo <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> asks about using an older solid state relay with older Wicks/Austin stop tabs.   Jon, you don't mention the manufacturer of the relay, and I know zilch = about "Wicks/Austin" stop tabs, so here's an answer not based on product knowledge, but rather first principles. ("ugh!" moans the class, correctly sensing a long, drawn out explanation :-)   Stop action magnets are basically two-part devices: an input part and an output part.   The input part consists of two electromagnets that the relay must control, and a mechanical hand lever for the organist to control. The decision algorithm is: "last input wins", that is, if the organist moves the lever after the relay, the organist's selection wins, if the relay is later, it wins. One electromagnet will move the stop to the "engaged" position, the other moves it to the "disengaged" position (e.g. to silence the rank). = The identical movement can be achieved by moving the stop by hand via the mechanical lever.   Stuff to look at on the Input side: 1. The coils will probably accept 12 to 15 VDC, look at how they're wired now and see what voltage is applied to them. 2. The impedance is probably about 30 ohms. Check. Reisner C3's and Syndynes are both about 30 ohms, but that hardly makes a standard and you should test with a supply (0.5 Amps draw at 15 VDC would mean a 30 ohm = coil) or an ohm meter. 3. Hunt around with an ohm meter (or look at the electrical traces if = your eyes work better than mine) and see if the coils are commoned together on the positive side, the negative side, or not at all (isolated, or "floating"). 4. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = 1 through 3 above.   The output part is easier: anywhere from 1 to n small switch contact sets to indicate whether the stop is engaged or disengaged. A "contact = voltage" will be wired through the contact set into the relay. The more modern = the relay, the higher the input impedance the relay will present to the = contact set, and so the lower the current circulating through the circuit.   Stuff to look at on the Output side: 1. See how many contact sets you have on the stop action magnet, and whether they close (switch "on") to indicate the stop is "engaged", or = open. Some (Reisner C3's again) will have both, take yer pick. 2. Look out for whether the contact sets are isolated or if they share a ground with the coils. 3. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = 1 through 2 above.   OK, so all this "See if your relay will conform" stuff is a bit cheaty. Here's a little more meat: 1. Look on the relay and see if the signals to the coil share a common ground, possibly common with the contact set inputs as well. 2. Fire up the relay, and use a volt meter to see what voltage it's = sending to the coil to energize it. 3. If the ground commonality issue is now resolved, and the voltage is = what you expect, then go ahead and hook up 1 of the stop action magnets and see if it works.   As thanks for reading through all this, if you want to draw two little schematics for a representative input circuit on the relay, and an output circuit, I'll be glad to look at them and tell you what I think. If you like, email me privately and we can set something up.   Hope this was useful. Also hope I've got it right, it's 1:30am and I'm shot!   Best regards to all! David Doerschuk      
(back) Subject: Reeds with the curve ground into the shallot? From: "David Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 01:38:02 -0500   Hullo!   The recent discussion of reed disassembly brought to mind a question that might be of general interest. I vaguely recall reading about several builders who built their reed pipes by grinding the curve (exponential?) into the shallot and leaving the tongue flat, rather than planishing (oh, shoot, that's not the right word...you know what I mean) the reed tongue = on a block and having the curve exist on the tongue, as is usually done, with the shallot opening cut flat.   Does anyone know what builders did this, and whether their reeds were successful?   It's kind of attractive, because the shallot curves could be machined and thus be very repeatable. I don't know how you'd machine the planishing process; very dicey, that.   I'd love to know what y'all think on this.   Best Regards,   David Doerschuk      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] How to disassemble a reed for cleaning? From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:02:04 -0400   >Dave McClellan- > > First lift the tuning wire off the reed and pull it forward, clearing = the >reed. Take a longnose pliers and wiggle the wedgeblock from the reed. = Remove >the reed and shallot. Place these removed items somewhere safe. The = shallot >may be stuck so wiggle it loose with pliers -carefully. > Reassembly- insert the shallot flat-side square with the wedgeblock = slot. >insert the reed and wedgeblock, carefully tapping the block in place. >Replace the tuning wire WITHOUT catching the reed-tip. > >In a nutshell, that's how I do it. Careful not to lose anything. > >Rick We also took a block of wood about 12 x 6 x 2 and drilled 61 1" pockets in = it. That's where we placed each set of parts. Very helpful for keeping it all in order in a compact area.   John V      
(back) Subject: Needed: 16' reed From: <DBnMOPS@aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:24:18 EDT     --part1_1e.1634369d.283e7392_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I haven't posted to the list since my latest project began. I recently exchanged my little 2/3 Wicks unit organ in my garage for MOST of a 1975 Zimmer 2/16 organ with low-pressure, classically-voiced pipes. (the 4/28 hybrid organ in the basement is unchanged during this other, separate, project) Now, I'm in need of a 73 pipe, 16' Fagott, half-length in the = bottom octave, on about 3" of wind. I'm sure everyone on the list has at least = one of these lying around their spare parts storage area. :-) The organ = builder from whom I got the Zimmer kept the original 16' reed for future addition = to an organ he is now building. If I can find a suitable 16' Fagott in the = near future, I can trade with him to get back the original 16' Zimmer reed. If anyone has such a rank, or has a lead on where I might get one, please let = me know! A new one would be nearly $7,000, and is out of the question, but = I'm willing to pay a fair price for a nice used one. Thanks, Doug Eyman   --part1_1e.1634369d.283e7392_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I haven't posted to the = list since my latest project began. I recently <BR>exchanged my little 2/3 Wicks unit organ in my garage for MOST of a = 1975 <BR>Zimmer 2/16 organ with low-pressure, classically-voiced pipes. (the = 4/28 <BR>hybrid organ in the basement &nbsp;is unchanged during this other, = separate, <BR>project) Now, I'm in need of a 73 pipe, 16' Fagott, half-length in the = bottom <BR>octave, on about 3" of wind. I'm sure everyone on the list has at = least one <BR>of these lying around their spare parts storage area. :-) &nbsp;The = organ builder <BR>from whom I got the Zimmer kept the original 16' reed for future = addition to <BR>an organ he is now building. If I can find a suitable 16' Fagott in = the near <BR>future, I can trade with him to get back the original 16' Zimmer reed. = If <BR>anyone has such a rank, or has a lead on where I might get one, please = let me <BR>know! A new one would be nearly $7,000, and is out of the question, = but I'm <BR>willing to pay a fair price for a nice used one. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks, <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doug Eyman</FONT></HTML>   --part1_1e.1634369d.283e7392_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] organ update From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:13:20 -0700   At 05:29 PM 5/5/2001 -0500, Gary Black wrote: >"IT will be playing by Christmas!"     Hi, Gary. Glad your project is progressing so well. I need to ask, though, Christmas what YEAR??????? ;-)     Bob, who's had the organ for almost 30 years, and it STILL isn't = finished...    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid staterelay From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:36:59 -0500   --=3D_DD87E69F.600188E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   David the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you this = =3D the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign is will this = =3D 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the double magnet switches = =3D and probably do use a lot of current to activate , , can this marriage =3D work   >>> d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net 05/24/01 01:24AM >>>=3D20 Hullo folks!=3D20   Jon Calvo < jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us > asks about using an older solid =3D state=3D20 relay with older Wicks/Austin stop tabs.=3D20   Jon, you don't mention the manufacturer of the relay, and I know zilch =3D about=3D20 "Wicks/Austin" stop tabs, so here's an answer not based on product=3D20 knowledge, but rather first principles. ("ugh!" moans the class, =3D correctly=3D20 sensing a long, drawn out explanation :-)=3D20   Stop action magnets are basically two-part devices: an input part and =3D an=3D20 output part.=3D20   The input part consists of two electromagnets that the relay must =3D control,=3D20 and a mechanical hand lever for the organist to control. The decision=3D20 algorithm is: "last input wins", that is, if the organist moves the =3D lever=3D20 after the relay, the organist's selection wins, if the relay is later, =3D it=3D20 wins. One electromagnet will move the stop to the "engaged" position, =3D the=3D20 other moves it to the "disengaged" position (e.g. to silence the rank). = =3D The=3D20 identical movement can be achieved by moving the stop by hand via the=3D20 mechanical lever.=3D20   Stuff to look at on the Input side:=3D20 1. The coils will probably accept 12 to 15 VDC, look at how they're =3D wired=3D20 now and see what voltage is applied to them.=3D20 2. The impedance is probably about 30 ohms. Check. Reisner C3's and=3D20 Syndynes are both about 30 ohms, but that hardly makes a standard and =3D you=3D20 should test with a supply (0.5 Amps draw at 15 VDC would mean a 30 ohm =3D coil)=3D20 or an ohm meter.=3D20 3. Hunt around with an ohm meter (or look at the electrical traces if =3D your=3D20 eyes work better than mine) and see if the coils are commoned together =3D on=3D20 the positive side, the negative side, or not at all (isolated, or=3D20 "floating").=3D20 4. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = =3D 1=3D20 through 3 above.=3D20   The output part is easier: anywhere from 1 to n small switch contact =3D sets=3D20 to indicate whether the stop is engaged or disengaged. A "contact =3D voltage"=3D20 will be wired through the contact set into the relay. The more modern =3D the=3D20 relay, the higher the input impedance the relay will present to the =3D contact=3D20 set, and so the lower the current circulating through the circuit.=3D20   Stuff to look at on the Output side:=3D20 1. See how many contact sets you have on the stop action magnet, and=3D20 whether they close (switch "on") to indicate the stop is "engaged", or =3D open.=3D20 Some (Reisner C3's again) will have both, take yer pick.=3D20 2. Look out for whether the contact sets are isolated or if they share =3D a=3D20 ground with the coils.=3D20 3. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = =3D 1=3D20 through 2 above.=3D20   OK, so all this "See if your relay will conform" stuff is a bit = cheaty.=3D20 Here's a little more meat:=3D20 1. Look on the relay and see if the signals to the coil share a = common=3D20 ground, possibly common with the contact set inputs as well.=3D20 2. Fire up the relay, and use a volt meter to see what voltage it's =3D sending=3D20 to the coil to energize it.=3D20 3. If the ground commonality issue is now resolved, and the voltage is =3D what=3D20 you expect, then go ahead and hook up 1 of the stop action magnets and =3D see=3D20 if it works.=3D20   As thanks for reading through all this, if you want to draw two = little=3D20 schematics for a representative input circuit on the relay, and an =3D output=3D20 circuit, I'll be glad to look at them and tell you what I think. If = you=3D20 like, email me privately and we can set something up.=3D20   Hope this was useful. Also hope I've got it right, it's 1:30am and = I'm=3D20 shot!=3D20   Best regards to all!=3D20 David Doerschuk=3D20       DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20   --=3D_DD87E69F.600188E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>David</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I = =3D will tell=3D20 you this the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign is = =3D will=3D20 this 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the double magnet =3D switches=3D20 and probably do use a lot of current to activate , , can this = marriage=3D20 work</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net">d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net= </=3D A>=3D20 05/24/01 01:24AM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>Hullo folks! <BR><BR>Jon Calvo &lt;<U> = =3D <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us">jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us</A></U> = =3D &gt; asks=3D20 about using an older solid state <BR>relay with older Wicks/Austin stop = =3D tabs.=3D20 <BR><BR>Jon, you don't mention the manufacturer of the relay, and I know = =3D zilch=3D20 about <BR>&quot;Wicks/Austin&quot; stop tabs, so here's an answer not =3D based on=3D20 product <BR>knowledge, but rather first principles. (&quot;ugh!&quot; =3D moans the=3D20 class, correctly <BR>sensing a long, drawn out explanation :-) = <BR><BR>Stop=3D =3D20 action magnets are basically two-part devices: an input part and an =3D <BR>output=3D20 part. <BR><BR>The input part consists of two electromagnets that the relay = =3D must=3D20 control, <BR>and a mechanical hand lever for the organist to control. =3D The=3D20 decision <BR>algorithm is: &quot;last input wins&quot;, that is, if the = =3D organist=3D20 moves the lever <BR>after the relay, the organist's selection wins, if the = =3D relay=3D20 is later, it <BR>wins. One electromagnet will move the stop to the=3D20 &quot;engaged&quot; position, the <BR>other moves it to the=3D20 &quot;disengaged&quot; position (e.g. to silence the rank). The = <BR>identic=3D al=3D20 movement can be achieved by moving the stop by hand via the = <BR>mechanical=3D =3D20 lever. <BR><BR>Stuff to look at on the Input side: <BR>1. The coils =3D will=3D20 probably accept 12 to 15 VDC, look at how they're wired <BR>now and see = =3D what=3D20 voltage is applied to them. <BR>2. The impedance is probably about 30 =3D ohms.=3D20 Check. Reisner C3's and <BR>Syndynes are both about 30 ohms, but that =3D hardly=3D20 makes a standard and you <BR>should test with a supply (0.5 Amps draw at = =3D 15 VDC=3D20 would mean a 30 ohm coil) <BR>or an ohm meter. <BR>3. Hunt around with an = =3D ohm=3D20 meter (or look at the electrical traces if your <BR>eyes work better than = =3D mine)=3D20 and see if the coils are commoned together on <BR>the positive side, =3D the=3D20 negative side, or not at all (isolated, or <BR>&quot;floating&quot;). =3D <BR>4. See=3D20 if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts 1 =3D <BR>through=3D20 3 above. <BR><BR>The output part is easier: anywhere from 1 to n small =3D switch=3D20 contact sets <BR>to indicate whether the stop is engaged or disengaged. = =3D A=3D20 &quot;contact voltage&quot; <BR>will be wired through the contact set into = =3D the=3D20 relay. The more modern the <BR>relay, the higher the input impedance the = =3D relay=3D20 will present to the contact <BR>set, and so the lower the current =3D circulating=3D20 through the circuit. <BR><BR>Stuff to look at on the Output side: <BR>1. = =3D See how=3D20 many contact sets you have on the stop action magnet, and <BR>whether they =3D close=3D20 (switch &quot;on&quot;) to indicate the stop is &quot;engaged&quot;, or = =3D open.=3D20 <BR>Some (Reisner C3's again) will have both, take yer pick. <BR>2. Look = =3D out for=3D20 whether the contact sets are isolated or if they share a <BR>ground with = =3D the=3D20 coils. <BR>3. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've = discovered=3D in=3D20 parts 1 <BR>through 2 above. <BR><BR>OK, so all this &quot;See if your =3D relay=3D20 will conform&quot; stuff is a bit cheaty. <BR>Here's a little more meat: = =3D <BR>1.=3D20 Look on the relay and see if the signals to the coil share a common =3D <BR>ground,=3D20 possibly common with the contact set inputs as well. <BR>2. Fire up the = =3D relay,=3D20 and use a volt meter to see what voltage it's sending <BR>to the coil =3D to=3D20 energize it. <BR>3. If the ground commonality issue is now resolved, and = =3D the=3D20 voltage is what <BR>you expect, then go ahead and hook up 1 of the stop = =3D action=3D20 magnets and see <BR>if it works. <BR><BR>As thanks for reading through all = =3D this,=3D20 if you want to draw two little <BR>schematics for a representative input = =3D circuit=3D20 on the relay, and an output <BR>circuit, I'll be glad to look at them and = =3D tell=3D20 you what I think. If you <BR>like, email me privately and we can set =3D something=3D20 up. <BR><BR>Hope this was useful. Also hope I've got it right, it's 1:30am = =3D and=3D20 I'm <BR>shot! <BR><BR>Best regards to all! <BR>David Doerschuk=3D20 <BR><BR><BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of = =3D their=3D20 own <BR>Residence Pipe Organs. <BR>HOMEPAGE : <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= .o=3D rg</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= /A=3D ></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= ha=3D t.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_DD87E69F.600188E0--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solidstaterelay From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:54:15 -0500   --=3D_F4AECF8A.5637BECA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   hey Guys I keep forgetting to post this I have a three rank wicks organ that I would like to sale it has a =3D Bourdon, Salicional, and Dulciana , if any one is interested in it please = =3D contact me=3D20 john   >>> jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us 05/24/01 09:36AM >>>   David the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you this = =3D the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign is will this = =3D 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the double magnet switches = =3D and probably do use a lot of current to activate , , can this marriage =3D work   >>> d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net 05/24/01 01:24AM >>>=3D20 Hullo folks!=3D20   Jon Calvo < jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us > asks about using an older solid =3D state=3D20 relay with older Wicks/Austin stop tabs.=3D20   Jon, you don't mention the manufacturer of the relay, and I know zilch =3D about=3D20 "Wicks/Austin" stop tabs, so here's an answer not based on product=3D20 knowledge, but rather first principles. ("ugh!" moans the class, =3D correctly=3D20 sensing a long, drawn out explanation :-)=3D20   Stop action magnets are basically two-part devices: an input part and =3D an=3D20 output part.=3D20   The input part consists of two electromagnets that the relay must =3D control,=3D20 and a mechanical hand lever for the organist to control. The decision=3D20 algorithm is: "last input wins", that is, if the organist moves the =3D lever=3D20 after the relay, the organist's selection wins, if the relay is later, =3D it=3D20 wins. One electromagnet will move the stop to the "engaged" position, =3D the=3D20 other moves it to the "disengaged" position (e.g. to silence the rank). = =3D The=3D20 identical movement can be achieved by moving the stop by hand via the=3D20 mechanical lever.=3D20   Stuff to look at on the Input side:=3D20 1. The coils will probably accept 12 to 15 VDC, look at how they're =3D wired=3D20 now and see what voltage is applied to them.=3D20 2. The impedance is probably about 30 ohms. Check. Reisner C3's and=3D20 Syndynes are both about 30 ohms, but that hardly makes a standard and =3D you=3D20 should test with a supply (0.5 Amps draw at 15 VDC would mean a 30 ohm =3D coil)=3D20 or an ohm meter.=3D20 3. Hunt around with an ohm meter (or look at the electrical traces if =3D your=3D20 eyes work better than mine) and see if the coils are commoned together =3D on=3D20 the positive side, the negative side, or not at all (isolated, or=3D20 "floating").=3D20 4. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = =3D 1=3D20 through 3 above.=3D20   The output part is easier: anywhere from 1 to n small switch contact =3D sets=3D20 to indicate whether the stop is engaged or disengaged. A "contact =3D voltage"=3D20 will be wired through the contact set into the relay. The more modern =3D the=3D20 relay, the higher the input impedance the relay will present to the =3D contact=3D20 set, and so the lower the current circulating through the circuit.=3D20   Stuff to look at on the Output side:=3D20 1. See how many contact sets you have on the stop action magnet, and=3D20 whether they close (switch "on") to indicate the stop is "engaged", or =3D open.=3D20 Some (Reisner C3's again) will have both, take yer pick.=3D20 2. Look out for whether the contact sets are isolated or if they share =3D a=3D20 ground with the coils.=3D20 3. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts = =3D 1=3D20 through 2 above.=3D20   OK, so all this "See if your relay will conform" stuff is a bit = cheaty.=3D20 Here's a little more meat:=3D20 1. Look on the relay and see if the signals to the coil share a = common=3D20 ground, possibly common with the contact set inputs as well.=3D20 2. Fire up the relay, and use a volt meter to see what voltage it's =3D sending=3D20 to the coil to energize it.=3D20 3. If the ground commonality issue is now resolved, and the voltage is =3D what=3D20 you expect, then go ahead and hook up 1 of the stop action magnets and =3D see=3D20 if it works.=3D20   As thanks for reading through all this, if you want to draw two = little=3D20 schematics for a representative input circuit on the relay, and an =3D output=3D20 circuit, I'll be glad to look at them and tell you what I think. If = you=3D20 like, email me privately and we can set something up.=3D20   Hope this was useful. Also hope I've got it right, it's 1:30am and = I'm=3D20 shot!=3D20   Best regards to all!=3D20 David Doerschuk=3D20       DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own=3D20 Residence Pipe Organs.=3D20 HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org=3D20 List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org=3D20   --=3D_F4AECF8A.5637BECA Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>hey Guys I keep forgetting to post this</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>I have a three rank wicks organ that I would like to = =3D sale it=3D20 has a Bourdon, Salicional, and Dulciana , if any one is interested in it = =3D please=3D20 contact me </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>john</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us">jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us</A> =3D 05/24/01=3D20 09:36AM &gt;&gt;&gt;<BR><FONT face=3D3D"MS Sans Serif" size=3D3D1></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>David</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I = =3D will tell=3D20 you this the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign is = =3D will=3D20 this 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the double magnet =3D switches=3D20 and probably do use a lot of current to activate , , can this = marriage=3D20 work</FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net">d.doerschuk@worldnet.att.net= </=3D A>=3D20 05/24/01 01:24AM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>Hullo folks! <BR><BR>Jon Calvo &lt;<U> = =3D <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us">jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us</A></U> = =3D &gt; asks=3D20 about using an older solid state <BR>relay with older Wicks/Austin stop = =3D tabs.=3D20 <BR><BR>Jon, you don't mention the manufacturer of the relay, and I know = =3D zilch=3D20 about <BR>&quot;Wicks/Austin&quot; stop tabs, so here's an answer not =3D based on=3D20 product <BR>knowledge, but rather first principles. (&quot;ugh!&quot; =3D moans the=3D20 class, correctly <BR>sensing a long, drawn out explanation :-) = <BR><BR>Stop=3D =3D20 action magnets are basically two-part devices: an input part and an =3D <BR>output=3D20 part. <BR><BR>The input part consists of two electromagnets that the relay = =3D must=3D20 control, <BR>and a mechanical hand lever for the organist to control. =3D The=3D20 decision <BR>algorithm is: &quot;last input wins&quot;, that is, if the = =3D organist=3D20 moves the lever <BR>after the relay, the organist's selection wins, if the = =3D relay=3D20 is later, it <BR>wins. One electromagnet will move the stop to the=3D20 &quot;engaged&quot; position, the <BR>other moves it to the=3D20 &quot;disengaged&quot; position (e.g. to silence the rank). The = <BR>identic=3D al=3D20 movement can be achieved by moving the stop by hand via the = <BR>mechanical=3D =3D20 lever. <BR><BR>Stuff to look at on the Input side: <BR>1. The coils =3D will=3D20 probably accept 12 to 15 VDC, look at how they're wired <BR>now and see = =3D what=3D20 voltage is applied to them. <BR>2. The impedance is probably about 30 =3D ohms.=3D20 Check. Reisner C3's and <BR>Syndynes are both about 30 ohms, but that =3D hardly=3D20 makes a standard and you <BR>should test with a supply (0.5 Amps draw at = =3D 15 VDC=3D20 would mean a 30 ohm coil) <BR>or an ohm meter. <BR>3. Hunt around with an = =3D ohm=3D20 meter (or look at the electrical traces if your <BR>eyes work better than = =3D mine)=3D20 and see if the coils are commoned together on <BR>the positive side, =3D the=3D20 negative side, or not at all (isolated, or <BR>&quot;floating&quot;). =3D <BR>4. See=3D20 if your relay will conform to the specs you've discovered in parts 1 =3D <BR>through=3D20 3 above. <BR><BR>The output part is easier: anywhere from 1 to n small =3D switch=3D20 contact sets <BR>to indicate whether the stop is engaged or disengaged. = =3D A=3D20 &quot;contact voltage&quot; <BR>will be wired through the contact set into = =3D the=3D20 relay. The more modern the <BR>relay, the higher the input impedance the = =3D relay=3D20 will present to the contact <BR>set, and so the lower the current =3D circulating=3D20 through the circuit. <BR><BR>Stuff to look at on the Output side: <BR>1. = =3D See how=3D20 many contact sets you have on the stop action magnet, and <BR>whether they = =3D close=3D20 (switch &quot;on&quot;) to indicate the stop is &quot;engaged&quot;, or = =3D open.=3D20 <BR>Some (Reisner C3's again) will have both, take yer pick. <BR>2. Look = =3D out for=3D20 whether the contact sets are isolated or if they share a <BR>ground with = =3D the=3D20 coils. <BR>3. See if your relay will conform to the specs you've = discovered=3D in=3D20 parts 1 <BR>through 2 above. <BR><BR>OK, so all this &quot;See if your =3D relay=3D20 will conform&quot; stuff is a bit cheaty. <BR>Here's a little more meat: = =3D <BR>1.=3D20 Look on the relay and see if the signals to the coil share a common =3D <BR>ground,=3D20 possibly common with the contact set inputs as well. <BR>2. Fire up the = =3D relay,=3D20 and use a volt meter to see what voltage it's sending <BR>to the coil =3D to=3D20 energize it. <BR>3. If the ground commonality issue is now resolved, and = =3D the=3D20 voltage is what <BR>you expect, then go ahead and hook up 1 of the stop = =3D action=3D20 magnets and see <BR>if it works. <BR><BR>As thanks for reading through all = =3D this,=3D20 if you want to draw two little <BR>schematics for a representative input = =3D circuit=3D20 on the relay, and an output <BR>circuit, I'll be glad to look at them and = =3D tell=3D20 you what I think. If you <BR>like, email me privately and we can set =3D something=3D20 up. <BR><BR>Hope this was useful. Also hope I've got it right, it's 1:30am = =3D and=3D20 I'm <BR>shot! <BR><BR>Best regards to all! <BR>David Doerschuk=3D20 <BR><BR><BR><BR>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of = =3D their=3D20 own <BR>Residence Pipe Organs. <BR>HOMEPAGE : <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/">http://www.diyapason.pipechat= .o=3D rg</A></U>=3D20 <BR>List: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org<= /A=3D ></U>=3D20 <BR>Administration: <U><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipec= ha=3D t.org</A></U>=3D20 <BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_F4AECF8A.5637BECA--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Needed: 16' reed From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:09:13 -0400   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401941=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" ; format=3D"flowed"   Wow, that sounds great Doug! Is the Zimmer going in the upstairs of your garage?   Eric     At 10:24 AM -0400 5/24/01, DBnMOPS@aol.com wrote: >I haven't posted to the list since my latest project began. I recently >exchanged my little 2/3 Wicks unit organ in my garage for MOST of a 1975 >Zimmer 2/16 organ with low-pressure, classically-voiced pipes. (the 4/28 >hybrid organ in the basement is unchanged during this other, separate, >project)   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401941=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=3D"us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Wow, that sounds great Doug! Is the Zimmer going in the upstairs of your garage?     Eric       At 10:24 AM -0400 5/24/01, DBnMOPS@aol.com wrote:   <excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>I haven't posted to the list since my latest project began. I recently   exchanged my little 2/3 Wicks unit organ in my garage for MOST of a 1975   Zimmer 2/16 organ with low-pressure, classically-voiced pipes. (the 4/28   hybrid organ in the basement is unchanged during this other, separate,   project)=3D20   </smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller><= /=3D smaller></fontfamily>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401941=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid staterelay From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:12:03 -0400   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401771=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" ; format=3D"flowed"   I'm a little confused Jon. You mention this is a relay. Does it also control the Combination Action of the organ?   Eric     At 9:36 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote: >Content-Type: text/html >Content-Description: HTML > >David >the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you >this the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign >is will this 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the >double magnet switches and probably do use a lot of current to >activate , , can this marriage work   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401771=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=3D"us-ascii"   I'm a little confused Jon. You mention this is a relay. Does it also control the Combination Action of the organ?     Eric       At 9:36 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote:   <excerpt>Content-Type: text/html   Content-Description: HTML     <smaller><smaller>David   the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you this the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign is will this 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the double magnet switches and probably do use a lot of current to activate , , can this marriage work   </smaller></smaller></excerpt><smaller><smaller></smaller></smaller>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221401771=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid staterelay From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:25:38 -0500   --=3D_7D274615.5A3BB2FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   Eric sorry to confuse you , I am told I am good at that , the relay dose not = =3D controls the Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two rank =3D organ I enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did not have the = =3D switching in the console for what I had added , now I have found this =3D relay and I am adding this to what I presently have , hope this clears up = =3D any misunderstanding=3D20   >>> ess4@psu.edu 05/24/01 11:12AM >>>=3D20 I'm a little confused Jon. You mention this is a relay. Does it also=3D20 control the Combination Action of the organ?=3D20   Eric=3D20     At 9:36 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote:=3D20 >Content-Type: text/html=3D20 >Content-Description: HTML=3D20 >=3D20 >David=3D20 >the Manufacture of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you=3D20 >this the instructions are with the unit you know , my main consign=3D20 >is will this 1972 relay work with wicks switching they are the=3D20 >double magnet switches and probably do use a lot of current to=3D20 >activate , , can this marriage work=3D20   --=3D_7D274615.5A3BB2FD Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>Eric</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>sorry to confuse you , I am told I am good at that , = =3D the relay=3D20 dose not controls the Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two = =3D rank=3D20 organ I enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did not have =3D the=3D20 switching in the console for what I had added , now I have found this =3D relay and=3D20 I am adding this to what I presently have , hope this clears up any=3D20 misunderstanding </FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:ess4@psu.edu">ess4@psu.edu</A> 05/24/01 11:12AM = &gt;&gt;&gt;=3D =3D20 <BR>I'm a little confused Jon. You mention this is a relay. Does it =3D also=3D20 <BR>control the Combination Action of the organ? <BR><BR>Eric = <BR><BR><BR>A=3D t=3D20 9:36 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote: <BR>&gt;Content-Type: = text/html=3D20 <BR>&gt;Content-Description: HTML <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;David <BR>&gt;the =3D Manufacture=3D20 of the relay is Sold state logic , I will tell you <BR>&gt;this the =3D instructions=3D20 are with the unit you know , my main consign <BR>&gt;is will this 1972 =3D relay=3D20 work with wicks switching they are the <BR>&gt;double magnet switches =3D and=3D20 probably do use a lot of current to <BR>&gt;activate , , can this marriage = =3D work=3D20 <BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_7D274615.5A3BB2FD--  
(back) Subject: Re: Reeds with the curve ground into the shallot? From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:26:52 EDT   > The recent discussion of reed disassembly brought to mind a question = that > might be of general interest. I vaguely recall reading about several > builders who built their reed pipes by grinding the curve (exponential?) > into the shallot and leaving the tongue flat, rather than planishing = (oh, > shoot, that's not the right word...you know what I mean) the reed tongue = on > a block and having the curve exist on the tongue, as is usually done, = with > the shallot opening cut flat. > Does anyone know what builders did this, and whether their reeds were > successful? > It's kind of attractive, because the shallot curves could be machined = and > thus be very repeatable. I don't know how you'd machine the planishing > process; very dicey, that. > I'd love to know what y'all think on this. > Best Regards, > David Doerschuk >>   Curving the shallot was essentially a total failure. I cannot remember = the company name offhand. So much machining went into the process that the = price was bumped way up. In near 50 years of organ work I have only heard about =   these and not actually seen shallots that were intentionally curved. = Points to ponder:   1) The thickness of a reed tongue is gradiated up and down the rank. It = is one variable that you must have. It is part of the voicing process to = bring the tongue to the correct thickness by filing the tongue on a reed anvil before the curve is put onto the tongue.   2) Brass is not dimensionally stabile with time. When I need to revoice = a reed that sounds like it has trash in it even after a good cleaning, I = first look at the shallot which is 99.999999% of the time warped. Truing the shallot in most cases makes working on the tongue unnecessary.   3) Your rough voicing is bringing the tongue curve to where the reed is neither too quick or too slow. Then you start the close voicing of = adjusting the three basic curves of the tongue to where they should be for the = timbre you want. The curves are not exponential and when burnishing a brass = tongue good tool control must be learned to let your hand know how much pressure = to apply as you slide up the tongue with the burnishing tool. Such slight adjustments simply could not be made by machining a curve into the = shallot.   My 2 cents worth........   Best to everyone,   Al Sefl  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid staterelay From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:40:38 -0400   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221400056=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" ; format=3D"flowed"   Thanks for the clarification Jon. When you mention Wicks double magnet switches, are you talking about the chest magnets or the SAMS (stop switches)?   Thanks, Eric   At 11:25 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote: >Content-Type: text/html >Content-Description: HTML > >Eric >sorry to confuse you , I am told I am good at that , the relay dose >not controls the Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two >rank organ I enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did >not have the switching in the console for what I had added , now I >have found this relay and I am adding this to what I presently have >, hope this clears up any misunderstanding   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221400056=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=3D"us-ascii"   Thanks for the clarification Jon. When you mention Wicks double magnet switches, are you talking about the chest magnets or the SAMS (stop switches)?     Thanks,   Eric     At 11:25 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote:   <excerpt>Content-Type: text/html   Content-Description: HTML     <smaller><smaller>Eric   sorry to confuse you , I am told I am good at that , the relay dose not controls the Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two rank organ I enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did not have the switching in the console for what I had added , now I have found this relay and I am adding this to what I presently have , hope this clears up any misunderstanding   </smaller></smaller></excerpt><smaller><smaller></smaller></smaller>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_-1221400056=3D=3D_ma=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Jon Calvo needs to connect an old solid staterelay From: "Jon Calvo" <jcalvo@mail.state.tn.us> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:21:31 -0500   --=3D_1248290F.C4A52C71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   ** For Your Eyes Only ** ** High Priority **   Eric=3D20 no the only part of the organ that is Wicks is the Combination action , = =3D the chest is a pneumatic , I wish that this chest was a better chest =3D actually I wonder what the cost to have it converted to a DE chest would = =3D be and and add 3 more ranks any one guess what that might cost and would = =3D it be worth it=3D20   >>> ess4@psu.edu 05/24/01 11:40AM >>>=3D20 Thanks for the clarification Jon. When you mention Wicks double=3D20 magnet switches, are you talking about the chest magnets or the SAMS=3D20 (stop switches)?=3D20   Thanks,=3D20 Eric=3D20   At 11:25 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote:=3D20 >Content-Type: text/html=3D20 >Content-Description: HTML=3D20 >=3D20 >Eric=3D20 >sorry to confuse you , I am told I am good at that , the relay dose=3D20 >not controls the Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two=3D20 >rank organ I enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did=3D20 >not have the switching in the console for what I had added , now I=3D20 >have found this relay and I am adding this to what I presently have=3D20 >, hope this clears up any misunderstanding=3D20   --=3D_1248290F.C4A52C71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type=3D > <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY style=3D3D"FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px; MARGIN-TOP: = =3D 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>Eric </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D1>no the only part of the organ that is Wicks is the = =3D Combination=3D20 action , the chest is a pneumatic , I wish that this chest was a better = =3D chest=3D20 actually I wonder what the cost to have it converted to a DE chest would = =3D be and=3D20 and add 3 more ranks any one guess what that might cost and would it be = =3D worth it=3D20 </FONT><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; <A = href=3D3D"mailto:ess4@psu.edu">ess4@psu.edu</A=3D >=3D20 05/24/01 11:40AM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>Thanks for the clarification Jon. When = =3D you=3D20 mention Wicks double <BR>magnet switches, are you talking about the =3D chest=3D20 magnets or the SAMS <BR>(stop switches)? <BR><BR>Thanks, <BR>Eric =3D <BR><BR>At=3D20 11:25 AM -0500 5/24/01, Jon Calvo wrote: <BR>&gt;Content-Type: = text/html=3D20=3D   <BR>&gt;Content-Description: HTML <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;Eric <BR>&gt;sorry to = =3D confuse=3D20 you , I am told I am good at that , the relay dose <BR>&gt;not controls = =3D the=3D20 Combo. action when I bought this organ it was a two <BR>&gt;rank organ =3D I=3D20 enlarged it to a 5 rank organ the only problem it did <BR>&gt;not have =3D the=3D20 switching in the console for what I had added , now I <BR>&gt;have found = =3D this=3D20 relay and I am adding this to what I presently have <BR>&gt;, hope this = =3D clears=3D20 up any misunderstanding <BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>   --=3D_1248290F.C4A52C71--