DIYAPASON-L Digest #415 - Monday, October 22, 2001
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by <DAJAMES@aol.com>
Blower Motor Outboarding......
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by <RDoer30176@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: Spencer blower, Century motor
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: <DAJAMES@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:56:06 EDT   HI -- I have a 5hp Spencer orgoblo, and use it almost every day, which was =   previously converted to run on a five HP single phase motor by leaving the =   existing long shaft motor in place (along with all it bearings) and = coupling the new motor to the rear shaft of the motor, where the generator would = have been driven when new. This required making a mounting frame for the new = motor which extended under the old motor replacing the big round spacers. This = has worked very satisfactorily for many years, at least 20 that I know of. If anyone is interested I could make a sketch of the installation for them.   Don James  
(back) Subject: Blower Motor Outboarding...... From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:59:45 EDT   Randall, et al:   The main problem with belt driven blowers is that the belt needs to have a =   constant tension system. As the belt warms and loosens it will slip. = With age and stretching, it will slip. I have several clients with old DC = motors on the blowers using belts. Anything over 0.5HP needs multiple belts to = keep the belts from stretching. These old blowers ate belts regularly and were = a pain until a system of constant tension with multiple belt pulleys was incorporated. Still they squeal and need regular periodic maintenance to keep going. Something else that happens is a loss of power from the belt friction so that a 0.5HP pulley drive will not give you a full 0.5HP. = Each blower is different but while pulleys can work they generally are a poor = fix for the problem. Many firms make a flexible inline coupler that will go = on the end of the old motor shaft so that a new inline motor can be placed on =   the rear of the old motor. We used one of these flexible shaft couplings which looks like a rubber ball smashed flat between two steel plates on = the 25HP motor in the Oakland Paramount and it has been running well since installed on the blower in 1965 at the SF Avenue.   One other item of note, OSHA standards state that ALL belt driven machines =   must have a belt guard.   Best wishes to all,   Al Sefl  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:53:28 EDT     In a message dated 10/21/01 11:56:44 PM, DAJAMES@aol.com writes:   >HI -- I have a 5hp Spencer orgoblo, and use it almost every day, which >was >previously converted to run on a five HP single phase motor by leaving >the >existing long shaft motor in place (along with all it bearings) and = coupling >the new motor to the rear shaft of the motor, where the generator would >have been driven when new.   Wow, yeah that works, just sort of using the old motor like a large = bearing block. I would imagine the extra weight would make start-up a little = slower and labored than if there was no old motor there, but it does work and you =   have proven.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:29:23 -0400   A couple of answers...   I had thought of a shaft coupler with a length of shaft but couldn't = imagine that such could possibly run true. A pillow block at the far end might = have been an answer but the block would have been mounted in the inlet, = basically on sheet metal. I didn't think it feasible.   I hope belt drive will be OK. Perhaps Al Sefl (sp?) was referring to the maintenance aspects of belts. I suspect this is less significant if there are pipe organ folks on-premises.   The final shaft speed is indeed the same. (I took that advice from = earlier posts.) In my case it called for 1-to-1 pulley sizes.   And, one additional piece of information. The new motor is actually intended for air moving applications. It looks like the type typically found in hot air furnace blowers. Sort of "cheap" looking in contrast to the nicely machined, heavy, quiet motors that one could buy (like the old Century, in fact.) Well, I'm sure we'll get to know this new scenario. I'll keep you posted. Thanks.   Jon Fick Westford, Vermont    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: <RDoer30176@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:47:21 EDT   In a message dated 10/22/01 4:29:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jon@VermontFicks.org writes:   Hi Jon and list.   The motor listed is intended to be mounted in the air stream to keep it = cool. Better check your source.   Russ > > And, one additional piece of information. The new motor is actually > intended for air moving applications. It looks like the type typically > found in hot air furnace blowers. Sort of "cheap" looking in contrast = to > the nicely machined, heavy, quiet motors that one could buy (like the = old > Century, in fact.) Well, I'm sure we'll get to know this new scenario. > I'll keep you posted. Thanks. > > Jon Fick > Westford, Vermont > >  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:49:43 -0400   At 02:47 PM 10/22/2001 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/22/01 4:29:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >jon@VermontFicks.org writes: > >Hi Jon and list. > >The motor listed is intended to be mounted in the air stream to keep it = cool. >Better check your source.   Perhaps Jon can list the Grainger part number. I'd be curious to look up the motor as I've work alot with them. One other thing I noticed is that = it appears to be a split phase motor, not a capacitor start motor. It may = have a hard time getting up to speed if that is the case.   Eric     >Russ > > > > And, one additional piece of information. The new motor is actually > > intended for air moving applications. It looks like the type = typically > > found in hot air furnace blowers. Sort of "cheap" looking in = contrast to > > the nicely machined, heavy, quiet motors that one could buy (like the = old > > Century, in fact.) Well, I'm sure we'll get to know this new = scenario. > > I'll keep you posted. Thanks. > > > > Jon Fick > > Westford, Vermont > > > > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:17:24 -0500   Hi everyone -- especially Jon!   Motors and bearings and jackshafts and couplings and belts and pulleys -- OH MY!!   All this discussion is now bringing to light some of the problems associated with substituting motors on old Spencer blowers (but there are = a few more left to go, I bet...!). Most everyone posting so far probably = has a valid point. There are indeed MANY factors to consider, beyond just "something to make the thing spin".   While your new setup *looks* to be very well thought out/designed Jon, I still wonder...   What exactly was so impossible about the idea of *fixing* the original motor, correctly...??? (they're just not terribly complex devices...!) I seem to remember you saying you'd tried this course of action once or twice, but I must admit my thoughts all along have been that you simply = had not yet found a motor-repairman experienced (old?) enough to be able to really know what the h*** he was working on. If he was, he would have fixed it easily, and the thing would be ready for another 75 years (?) of service.   Despite your best efforts/intentions, I really doubt that your new motor setup will last anywhere near as long as the original did. They never do -- no matter who does the "replacement", how much money/"engineering" they throw at it in doing so, or what the "spec sheets" of any given contemporary motor might claim.   I hope you didn't send that old Century motor to the scrapyard -- set it aside near the blower, so it will be there to be (finally) fixed correctly and re-installed, when your new arrangement goes belly-up. Unless, that is, your new arrangement kills the blower itself (bearings, fans, = whatever) when it makes its exit from the world (which is the usual result of such "substitutions", unfortunately.)   None of this, BTW, should be construed as a condemnation of your efforts = to find a new solution to an old problem -- just a reminder that "new" is usually NOT "better" -- especially when it comes to Spencer Orgoblos and Century Motors.   Good luck with it all...   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR (who really doesn't wanna be the 'wet blanket'...but someone has to say = it...)      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:45:25 -0700   At 06:17 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Tim Bovard wrote: >Unless, that >is, your new arrangement kills the blower itself (bearings, fans, = whatever) >when it makes its exit from the world (which is the usual result of such >"substitutions", unfortunately.)   Well, Tim, you're right, usually these 'substitutions' do end up with the blower, motor, fans, etc. in the junk yard. They might have ended up = there anyway, if the 'substitution' hadn't been made, and the motor couldn't be repaired. Who knows? At any rate, I'd like to tell the list that I have made a substitution of that type, on a 5hp Spencer, the original motor of which had been 'liberated' by persons unknown at some time in the past. I made up a new shaft, mounted it on pillow blocks at both ends, and centered the shaft in the blower housing. A new motor, heavy duty, was mounted on a new mount, and a Lovejoy coupling inserted between the two. It had been working well (home installation) for several years when domestic situations required = the organ be removed. If I can, I'll take some pictures of the substitution. Notice that I have left off the quotation marks, because THIS substitution works fine!   >None of this, BTW, should be construed as a condemnation of your efforts = to >find a new solution to an old problem -- just a reminder that "new" is >usually NOT "better" -- especially when it comes to Spencer Orgoblos and >Century Motors.   You're right about THIS, too! Note that I would have been much happier to get a phase converter, had the unknown 'someone' left the original 3 phase motor there!     Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA NAWCC 140818 http://www.cuckoobob.com alternate mailto:cuckoobob@eudoramail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:03:46 EDT     In a message dated 10/22/01 6:19:57 PM, tmbovard@arkansas.net writes:   > >What exactly was so impossible about the idea of *fixing* the original >motor, correctly...??? (they're just not terribly complex devices...!) > I >seem to remember you saying you'd tried this course of action once or >twice, but I must admit my thoughts all along have been that you simply >had >not yet found a motor-repairman exp   I would try to fix the original, they don't make em as solid and rugged as =   they did. When I got my blower, I took my 2HP century motor out, opened it =   up, cleaned out the dirt, dust, grease etc and was going to have an electrician I know put new lead wires in but he said as long as they were okay and I don't disturb them not to bother replacing them because doing = so can risk damaging the field winding wires by messing with it. So I put new oil and grease in , reassembled it and new gloss black paint.   The copper commutators had virtually no wear at all on them, the brushes = were long and new, the heavy copper deal that holds the brushes has some pins = or bolts for hinges, the centrifugal force moves the bush holder out on = those pins, so I put a small amount of grease around the pins.   That motor by the way weighs 290 pounds, compare that to a modern 2 HP = motor and the difference in quality, workmanship and materials is very easy to = see.         Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: Spencer blower, Century motor From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:31:51 EDT   Another additional thing to note is that a 0.5 HP Century motor is really more like 0.75 HP. Remember that in the old days they designed things = with a "fudge factor" so that everything was in reality under spect'd by a good margin. It was pointed out that the new motor should be forced air cooled =   and not convection cooled so here are two factors which will tend to make = it run hot, maybe to quick failure. Remember the "rule of thumb is if you = can't keep your thumb on the motor for more than 10 seconds, it is running too = hot."   As for rebuilding Century motors, I have never come across one that = several local motor shops couldn't rebuild from the ground up. In San Francisco alone there are two that have rewound motors for me for years. Rebuilding =   motors is not rocket science. Replacing a motor is however an engineering =   adventure.   After looking at Jon's pulley system, I tend to think that even with tightening the motor mounts periodically, there will be some problems. A direct shaft connection puts 100% of the motor torque onto the fan shaft. =   The belt system friction will cause less to be transferred. Then there is =   the question of the oil impregnated bearings on the motor being designed = for a sideways thrust of the pulley. If the wind draw of the organ is small = and the motor only needs to run at a fraction of its rating then everything = may work out well; but, that you won't know until you try it. Good luck.   Best wishes everyone,   Al Sefl   PS: Were there any added ranks that would increase the wind draw from the =   original blower output?