DIYAPASON-L Digest #383 - Sunday, September 9, 2001
 
Re: [Residence Organs] Re: New Member Bio and Organ Design Question
  by "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com>
Re: Organ Design Question
  by "Ron Rarick" <ronrarick@mindspring.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Books on American Builders
  by "Fr. Larry Covington" <larry.covington@St-Louis.org>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Books on American Builders
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: New Member Bio and Organ Design Question From: "Bart Kleineweber" <prinzipal8@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 09:33:42 -0500   <html><div style=3D'background-color:'><DIV> <P>Dear Roy and List:</P> <P>Roy write:</P> <P>&gt;&nbsp;I have also </P> <DIV></DIV> <P>&gt;been told that using an extended rank for more than one stop means = voicing it </P> <DIV></DIV> <P>&gt;such that it can't provide the kind of blend and balance that = separate stops </P> <DIV></DIV> <P>&gt;can have. <BR><BR>Not so.&nbsp; Rieger-Kloss built my 8 foot = Prinzipal with variable scaling, which means that in the upper ranges it = is more like an octave than it is like an 8 foot rank.&nbsp; It blends = quite well when unified at 8 feet, 4 feet and 2-2/3 feet.&nbsp; The 4 foot = Oktav does not overpower the 8 foot as it would in a rank with the same = scaling all the way up.&nbsp; Very ingenious, don't you think?&nbsp; Of = course, with used ranks you would not have that option available, so it = would be better to have&nbsp;separate 8' and 4' ranks.</P>In a Baroque = style organ, you could fit more than 4 ranks in that space, = because&nbsp;several of them would be smaller than 2' length and could be = on chests elevated above the treble sections of your 8' ranks.&nbsp; Try a = 2' Superoktav and a small Mixtur III.&nbsp; Or better yet, a 2-2/3' = Prinzipal and a Mixtur III ( the 2' could be unified from the 8 or 4 = Prinzipal.&nbsp; That's 4 more ranks!&nbsp; You might be able to have an = indepen <DIV></DIV>http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org/webpages/kleineweber/ <DIV></DIV>prinzipal8@hotmail.com <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Jess4203@aol.com <DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@PIPECHAT.ORG> <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: New Member Bio and Organ = Design Question <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:32:41 EDT <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;Hi DIYers: <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;I found this site through Bart Kleinweber. My name is Roy = Kersey. I'm a <DIV></DIV>&gt;psychologist in Knoxville, Tennessee. I learned piano in my = teens from my <DIV></DIV>&gt;uncle, a band musician, church organist and piano/organ = salesman who also <DIV></DIV>&gt;taught me to tune and left me his tools. When I should have = been writing a <DIV></DIV>&gt;dissertation at the University of Tennessee (I did finish = eventually), I was <DIV></DIV>&gt;taking voice lessons (bass-baritone) and teaching myself = the pedalboard on a <DIV></DIV>&gt;2/20 Schantz in the Music Department (~1976). I haven't had = much opportunity <DIV></DIV>&gt;to play the organ since then, but recently decided that, = with semi-retirement <DIV></DIV>&gt;an option in a few years, I might look into working with an = organ builder <DIV></DIV>&gt;part time. I have been reading about organ building and = that led me to this <DIV></DIV>&gt;list and to the idea that I might build my own instrument. = Which leads to my <DIV></DIV>&gt;question: <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;Like all of us, I'd love to have a large instrument, but I = don't know where I <DIV></DIV>&gt;will eventually be in five or ten years, so I'd like to = build an instrument <DIV></DIV>&gt;which would fit in the average living room. The case = footprint I've been <DIV></DIV>&gt;discussing would be about ten feet wide, five feet deep and = about seven and a <DIV></DIV>&gt;half feet high (fits under the average eight foot ceiling). = I will be <DIV></DIV>&gt;building a workshop on an existing foundation this fall (I = hope) with <DIV></DIV>&gt;approximate dimensions of 12 x 32 and I hope to assemble an = organ in this <DIV></DIV>&gt;shed. From there, the shed could be finished out as a music = shed, or the <DIV></DIV>&gt;organ might move into my current living room or into = another residence. My <DIV></DIV>&gt;preference is for a Baroque type instrument which would be = appropriate for <DIV></DIV>&gt;JSB and composers of that era (Buxtehude, Scheidt, etc.). = While I would love <DIV></DIV>&gt;to have a tracker, I've been advised to go direct electric = (much simpler and <DIV></DIV>&gt;more flexible) and to unify to get the most out of the = space that will be <DIV></DIV>&gt;available. This seems to make sense, as I don't want to = bite off more than I <DIV></DIV>&gt;can chew and never get finished. Of course I am aware that = unit organs do <DIV></DIV>&gt;have limitations when it comes to polyphonic music = especially. I have also <DIV></DIV>&gt;been told that using an extended rank for more than one = stop means voicing it <DIV></DIV>&gt;such that it can't provide the kind of blend and balance = that separate stops <DIV></DIV>&gt;can have. It has been suggested that I try to build a three = or four rank DE <DIV></DIV>&gt;organ on a unit chest such as those built by Wicks in from = 60's thru the <DIV></DIV>&gt;80's. <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;I would be interested in comments from the list members on = this. <DIV></DIV>&gt;Particularly: Could a four rank unit organ work for the = Baroque repetoire? <DIV></DIV>&gt;What more could fit in the footprint I described above? = Could there be room <DIV></DIV>&gt;for expansion beyond four ranks in that space? (manual = reeds, a pedal reed, <DIV></DIV>&gt;additional stops/ranks, mixtures, upperwork). Would others = on the list <DIV></DIV>&gt;suggest doing something else? I could build a bigger case = in the shed and <DIV></DIV>&gt;even raise the shed roof over eight feet, but I might have = a problem fitting <DIV></DIV>&gt;the organ in my eventual domecile. Of course, I could leave = that problem to <DIV></DIV>&gt;be solved later (or give the finished organ to one of you = <BG>). <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;I am glad to have found this list. I've learned a lot = already from reading <DIV></DIV>&gt;all the Archives available last weekend (whew!). I just = wish there were more <DIV></DIV>&gt;Archives available for a further "organ-fix". I look = forward to hearing from <DIV></DIV>&gt;you all. <DIV></DIV>&gt; <DIV></DIV>&gt;Best Regards, <DIV></DIV>&gt;Roy Kersey <DIV></DIV></div><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN = Explorer at <a = href=3D'http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>= <br></html>  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Design Question From: "Ron Rarick" <ronrarick@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:09:39 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0215_01C13939.105660E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Problem with this is, in a single independent rank, the way organs are *meant* to be, the pipes are usually voiced to build slightly into the treble so as the melody goes up there is a little bit of a crescendo, and as the melody goes down there is a bit of a decrescendo. This is called "leading" (that's leed-ing, not ledd-ing). And of course the octave rank should always be quieter than the unison rank. So if you have a single unified rank you have two opposing principles (but only one Principal) which cannot both be satisfied. Also, Bart says the 2 2/3 unified=3D20 off the 8 blends; can't be so. The out-of-tuneness of equal tempered intervals which would be present in the C and G of one rank prevents the G from being in true pitch as an overtone of the C. Drives organ tuners nuts. I believe in a discreet bit of unification, such as in the pedal, but one of the worst sins of unification is deriving mutations from unisons - they will never blend properly - it's impossible.   Ron Rarick Muncie, IN ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Bart Kleineweber=3D20 To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: [Residence Organs] Re: New Member Bio = =3D andOrgan Design Question     Rieger-Kloss built my 8 foot Prinzipal with variable scaling, which =3D means that in the upper ranges it is more like an octave than it is like = =3D an 8 foot rank. It blends quite well when unified at 8 feet, 4 feet and = =3D 2-2/3 feet. =3D20     ------=3D_NextPart_000_0215_01C13939.105660E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Problem with this is, in a single =3D independent=3D20 rank,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>the way organs are *meant* to be, the = =3D pipes=3D20 are</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>usually voiced to build slightly into = =3D the treble so=3D20 as</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>the melody goes up there is a little = =3D bit of a=3D20 crescendo, and</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>as the melody goes down there is a = bit =3D of a=3D20 decrescendo.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>This is called "leading" (that's =3D leed-ing, not=3D20 ledd-ing).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>And of course the octave rank should = =3D always be=3D20 quieter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>than the unison rank.&nbsp; So if you = =3D have a single=3D20 unified rank</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>you have two opposing principles (but = =3D only one=3D20 Principal)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>which cannot both be satisfied.&nbsp; = =3D Also, Bart=3D20 says the 2 2/3 unified </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>off </FONT><FONT face=3D3DArial =3D size=3D3D2>the 8 blends;=3D20 can't be so.&nbsp; The out-of-tuneness of equal</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>tempered intervals which would be =3D present in the C=3D20 and G of</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>one rank prevents the G from being in = =3D true pitch as=3D20 an overtone</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>of the C.&nbsp; Drives organ tuners = =3D nuts.&nbsp; I=3D20 believe in a discreet bit</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>of unification, such as in the pedal, = =3D but one of=3D20 the worst sins</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>of unification is deriving mutations = =3D from unisons -=3D20 they will</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>never blend properly - it's=3D20 impossible.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Ron Rarick</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Muncie, IN</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = =3D 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A href=3D3D"mailto:prinzipal8@hotmail.com" =3D title=3D3Dprinzipal8@hotmail.com>Bart=3D20 Kleineweber</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org"=3D20 title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org>DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 09, =3D 2001 9:33=3D20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] Re: = =3D   [Residence Organs] Re: New Member Bio andOrgan Design Question</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P>Rieger-Kloss built my 8 foot Prinzipal with variable scaling, which = =3D means=3D20 that in the upper ranges it is more like an octave than it is like an = =3D 8 foot=3D20 rank.&nbsp; It blends quite well when unified at 8 feet, 4 feet and =3D 2-2/3=3D20 feet.&nbsp; </P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0215_01C13939.105660E0--    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Books on American Builders From: "Fr. Larry Covington" <larry.covington@St-Louis.org> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:14:54 -0500   Hi Roy,   While her books deal with style in terms of voicing she does not go into = the details. When it comes to understanding these sorts of things one of the best all around reference books is Willam H. Barnes 'The Contemporary American Organ". The last edition of this I believe was publish around 1964 with a reprint in 1971. It went through eight or nine revisions starting with the first edition of 1930. There is lots of good info on various American builders from both the nineteenth and twentieth = centuries. I have found this book available on Bibliofind.com and the Organ Lit. Foundation. You are very right when you say the "looking phase" in fun and the rest is hard work. But take heart, the work is very rewarding just remember to build as small as you can. I have seen alot of folks who start by trying = to do too much. My own little project is a case in point. I started out = with a modest scheme of about five ranks and now I have attic divisions and = down the hall closet divisions and while it's fun it isn't very musical at = least not in the true sense of what an organ should be.   Good luck!   Larry   > -----Original Message----- > From: Jess4203@aol.com [SMTP:Jess4203@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:40 AM > To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Books on American Builders > > Hi Larry: > > Thanks for the recommendation on the Ophse book and others. I have seen > her > book but not looked at it closely. Is there actually info on what style > of > organs and scales of pipes the various builders used in these books? > > This looking phase seems like a lot of fun. The "elbow grease" phase > might > be harder. I have a weekend's worth of work to do on my house and then = I > hope to get to building the shed during the cool fall weather. > > Best Regards, > Roy  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Books on American Builders From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:58:01 -0500   At 6:14 PM -0500 9/9/01, Fr. Larry Covington wrote: >When it comes to understanding these sorts of things one of the >best all around reference books is Willam H. Barnes 'The Contemporary >American Organ". The last edition of this I believe was publish around >1964 with a reprint in 1971. It went through eight or nine revisions >starting with the first edition of 1930. There is lots of good info on >various American builders from both the nineteenth and twentieth = centuries. >I have found this book available on Bibliofind.com and the Organ Lit. >Foundation.   The Eighth Edition of the Barnes Book, which was published in the early 70's has been reprinted. The Organ Historical Society Catalogue carries it and the price is $17.95 plus shipping - see their book page at: http://www.ohscatalog.com/books.html   Even tho many people feel that it is outdated and that Bill Barnes ideas are dated, it is probably still the best book around giving the basics of the organ plus a great deal of history about American organs. I have several different editions including the First Edition and I find them very interesting to read through since Doc. Barnes talks about some of the builders that were active in the early part of this century. And his comments are from personal experience with these builders and their works. Plus, I guess he could be called the "quintessential" residence organ builder since he had what ended up to be a 4 manual 60 or so rank organ in his home that was built from various parts and tinkered with over the years. He even had a Trompette en chamade sticking out of the wall above the entrance to the living room!   I find it much easier to order from the OHS Catalogue than from the Organ Literature Foundation, mainly because I can do it on the Net. And the profits from the OHS sales goes towards furthering the purpose of the organization. The Organ Literature Foundation is actually a privately owned business and not a foundation.   David