DIYAPASON-L Digest #395 - Sunday, September 23, 2001
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Moving EM organ
  by "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com>
More re: moving EM organ
  by <Jess4203@aol.com>
Stop relays
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: Cotton covered wire
  by "Gregory Rister" <grandcornet@earthlink.net>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Estey 16' Haskell Diapason for sale
  by "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Estey 16' Haskell Diapason for sale
  by "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net>
NEC Interpretation: Is re-wiring necessary?
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Cotton covered wire
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Moving EM organ From: "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 00:24:35 -0700   I doubt that few people would spend the amount of money rewiring a 2-1/2 rank organ and installing a new relay. You can find new organs with more ranks available for less than the cost of a relay. The National Electric Code changes as presented to the AIO at their Fort Worth Texas convention in 1989 was not a wholesale license to rewire organs. The most important aspect was to fuse the organs at no more than five amps per branch circuit so you did not start a fire from a short connected to a 30 amp rectifier.   When I moved a 3 rank Moller to my home some years ago I installed new wiring on telephone disconnects from the console junction to the chamber junction and left the rest of the wire alone. With exactly 200 wires including shades and a tremolo, I used four 25 pair phone cables with 50 pin plugs. If moved, I just install the right length extensions and plug it back together. My rectifier is in the console so I needed one return wire to make the chests play. You might be amazed at how many organs and telephones are working quite well on cotton covered cable.   Blaine Ricketts     "Fr. Larry Covington" wrote: > > Hi Roy,. Cutting the cables is usually necessary in order to move the > thing. Besides this if it has cotton covered wire it must be rewired > anyway.  
(back) Subject: More re: moving EM organ From: <Jess4203@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:11:18 EDT     --part1_9a.1a2fc430.28df5596_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi again:   Someone asked for more info about the 2 1/2 ranker I mentioned. I haven't =   seen it yet, it is a ways from here, but I do have a description and some pictures. The organ is all unenclosed and the pipework exposed. A 16 = foot Bourdon is along the back set on a chest on the floor, from what I can = see, which puts the height on both back corners of the organ at about ten feet (typical alternating placement, CC left, CC# right, etc.) The wooden = gedeckt is in front of that and the metal principal in front of that. The = keyboards are built into the front of the case. The principal bass octave is = borrowed from the gedeckt and both are available, through separate stop knobs, on = both the great and the "swell", at 8, 4, and 2. These are also available on = the pedal as gedeckt 8 and choral bass 4. The nazard is evidently a separate rank, and since it is called a half, I guess it goes down to tenor c only. = The organ was assembled from parts by a fellow named Roy Barger, about = 1972. The principal is actually a string rank that was "too broadly scaled" for another organ. The stopknobs are the typical doorknob-shaped ones usually =   found on consles with side jambs, but they are set into what would be the fallboard area (if an organ had a fallboard) over the top manual. The = organ case is too wide to go thru a door, and evidently will have to be disassembled to get the organ out of the room it is now in. It doesn't = look like any provision has been made for this, so it may have to just be pried =   apart. Any more comments?   Regards, Roy   --part1_9a.1a2fc430.28df5596_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi again: <BR> <BR>Someone asked for more info about the 2 1/2 ranker I mentioned. = &nbsp;I haven't seen it yet, it is a ways from here, but I do have a = description and some pictures. &nbsp;The organ is all unenclosed and the = pipework exposed. &nbsp;A 16 foot Bourdon is along the back set on a chest = on the floor, from what I can see, which puts the height on both back = corners of the organ at about ten feet (typical alternating placement, CC = left, CC# right, etc.) &nbsp;The wooden gedeckt is in front of that and = the metal principal in front of that. &nbsp;The keyboards are built into = the front of the case. &nbsp;The principal bass octave is borrowed from = the gedeckt and both are available, through separate stop knobs, on both = the great and the "swell", at 8, 4, and 2. &nbsp;These are also available = on the pedal as gedeckt 8 and choral bass 4. &nbsp;The nazard is evidently = a separate rank, and since it is called a half, I guess it goes down to = tenor c only. &nbsp;The organ was assembled from parts by a <BR> <BR>Regards, <BR>Roy</FONT></HTML>   --part1_9a.1a2fc430.28df5596_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Stop relays From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:52:26 EDT   I received the Radio SHack relays I ordered, these were amazingly unlike = most Radio Shack components made in England!   They are catalog # 275-226 30 AMP auto relay, $5.99 each. They will = pull in contacts on 6V. I bought 6, need 17 I figured, but will get the rest later, I mounted on = a nice piece of cherry plywood edged with a 3/4" maple frame the 4 I need = for the Swell, and installed one for the Gt and one for the pedal for now to = get the spacing and wire layout for it started.   One terminal on each relay goes to the console stop tab for it's = associated rank (+), one terminal is the relay coil ground, and the other two = terminals are connected when the contacts close and those two terminals will be what = I connect the individual rank ground wires to.   I consider this to be real simple, inexpensive and will do the job, just couldn't find anything in the OSI catalog suitable. I only found gang switches and the console relay coil units with the tabs. My design can't = be THAT different from the norm that OSI didn't have something.   I'm just simply making each rank a separate circuit, and the stop relay = just grounds the wire that one leg of the chest magnets are connected to for = the rank it controls. The other leg wires of those magnets goes to the key = action relays, so one leg wire of all of the C1 magnets connects to the C1 key action relay which is controlled by key C1, and one leg wire for each C#2 magnets goes to the C#2 key relay and so on. So the key relays will close all of the connections on them with the keys, = but only the ranks whose stop action relay is engergized will play.   I'm using 8 GA wire to the console (+) side and fusing each stop action = relay with a 5 amp fuse block in each of the 12 GA ground wires to the ranks the =   relays controll. So each stop action relay has a nice fuse holder right = next to it.       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: Cotton covered wire From: "Gregory Rister" <grandcornet@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 14:0:50 -0700   ------=3D_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII     Hi List,     Blaine is correct. The NEC is most applicable to commercial work, such as new organ installations. Older organs with = cotton covered cabling (and there are legions of them) were grandfathered in and operate just fine. The NEC changes were largely fostered by legitimate insurance company concerns over establishing fire-safe wiring standards. A home installation need not adhere, nor do you need to go about rewiring vintage toasters, blenders and waffle-makers you might have. Of course, it might not hurt to take a look at some if that wiring :)     Your primary concern in using older wiring should be its condition; and, how willing you are to rely on "ringing-out" wires to unscramble them, instead of using uniform color-codes (which is usually my = first choice).     Greg Rister   The Pipe Organ Craftsmen   Pomona, California     ----- Original Message -----   From: Blaine Ricketts     To: Residence Organ List   Sent: 09/23/2001 12:24:35 AM   Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Moving EM organ           The National Electric Code changes as presented to the AIO at their Fort Worth Texas   convention in 1989 was not a wholesale license to rewire organs. The   most important aspect was to fuse the organs at no more than five amps   per branch circuit so you did not start a fire from a short connected to   a 30 amp rectifier.       DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own   Residence Pipe Organs.   HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org   List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org   Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org           -   ------=3D_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII   <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1251"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>Hi List,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>Blaine is correct.&nbsp; The NEC is most = applicable to commercial work, such as new organ installations.&nbsp; = Older organs with cotton covered cabling (and there are legions of them) = were grandfathered in&nbsp;and operate just fine.&nbsp; The NEC changes = were largely fostered by legitimate insurance company concerns&nbsp;over = establishing&nbsp;fire-safe wiring standards.&nbsp; A home installation = need not adhere, nor do you need to go about rewiring vintage toasters, = blenders and waffle-makers you might have.&nbsp; Of course, it might not = hurt to take a look at some if that wiring :)</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>Your primary concern in using older wiring = should be its condition; and, how willing you are to rely on "ringing-out" = wires to unscramble them, instead of using uniform color-codes (which is = usually my first choice).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>Greg Rister</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>The Pipe Organ Craftsmen</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DGaramond>Pomona, = California&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dblaineri@home.com = href=3D"mailto:blaineri@home.com">Blaine Ricketts</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=3Dblaineri@home.com = href=3D"mailto:blaineri@home.com">Residence Organ List</A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 09/23/2001 12:24:35 AM </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Residence Organs] Re: = Moving EM organ</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2> <P> <DIV>The National Electric Code changes as presented to the AIO at their = Fort Worth Texas</DIV> <DIV>convention in 1989 was not a wholesale license to rewire organs.&nbsp;&nbsp;The</DIV> <DIV>most important aspect was to fuse the organs at no more than five = amps</DIV> <DIV>per branch circuit so you did not start a fire from a short connected = to</DIV> <DIV>a 30 amp rectifier.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own = </DIV> <DIV>Residence Pipe Organs.</DIV> <DIV>HOMEPAGE : <A = href=3D"http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org">http://www.diyapason.pipechat.or= g</A></DIV> <DIV>List: <A = href=3D"mailto:mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat= .org</A></DIV> <DIV>Administration:&nbsp;&nbsp;<A = href=3D"mailto:mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org">mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@= pipechat.org</A></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <P></P></FONT> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>-</DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=3D_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Estey 16' Haskell Diapason for sale From: "L.Huivenaar" <louis.huivenaar@wxs.nl> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:20:11 +0200   Hello list,   My customer in Belgium is asking for more rolls for his Estey Residence Player Pipeorgan. Are there some for sale or exchange on the list?   Greetings   Louis Huivenaar Netherlands Pipeorganbuilder and restorer Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe Website: www.harmonium.com   -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]Namens = Larry Chace Verzonden: woensdag 19 september 2001 14:57 Aan: Residence Organ List Onderwerp: [Residence Organs] Estey 16' Haskell Diapason for sale   I just noticed on the "Church Organ Trader" that my friend Jim Weisenborne has a very unusual item for sale:   For Sale: 16' wooden Estey Haskell diapason. $800. All pipes in good condition. Located north of Detroit. Kimballl@Yahoo.com   This set is a fairly large scale, as I recall, but of course it is quite short, perhaps 10 or 11 feet tall at the most. The Haskelled bass pipes have a reputation for very prompt speech, an additional advantage.   Happy haskelling!   Larry Chace     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Estey 16' Haskell Diapason for sale From: "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 16:23:19 -0700 (PDT)       On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, L.Huivenaar wrote:   > Hello list, > > My customer in Belgium is asking for more rolls for his Estey Residence > Player Pipeorgan. > Are there some for sale or exchange on the list? > > Greetings > > Louis Huivenaar > Netherlands > Pipeorganbuilder and restorer > Harmonium and Reedorgan restorer > Appraiser under Oath for Harmoniums and Reedorgans in Europe > Website: www.harmonium.com >   For all things 'mechanical music' I would check with the Mechanical Music Digest at www.foxtail.com. Search the archives or subscribe and post your query there. There are a lot of resourceful folks on that mailing list. (that's not to say that this list isn't resourceful)...   ---john.    
(back) Subject: NEC Interpretation: Is re-wiring necessary? From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:09:55 -0500   > Hi List, > Blaine is correct. The NEC is most applicable to commercial work, I would like to respectfully weigh-in with a correction: the National Electric Code is applicable to ANY electrical installation anywhere where there is an electrical jurisdiction and electrical inspection. Most of these locations adopt the NEC in its entirety by reference. This includes residences unless you're in a state and/or an unincorporated area where "there ain't no electrical inspectors". Even there: the NEC is meant to be the "Guiding Light" in all matters electrical.   More important is the fact that insurance companies can and DO use wanton failure to follow the NEC Code as a way of side-stepping payment on insurance claims that may arise out of disasters which are traced back non-code-compliant electrical installations. That can also include the homeowner doing any kind of residential wiring himself if it's not done according to code. In some jurisdictions, the homeowner is PRECLUDED from doing his own wiring. Period!   > Older organs with cotton covered cabling (and there are legions of > them) were grandfathered in and operate just fine.   Correct. But here is the kicker: If you MOVE the organ, you are "making changes" to it (even if it's nothing more than simply taking it apart and re-installing it. The code specifies that if the organ is changed in any way, than it gets re-wired. Period.   > The NEC changes were largely fostered by legitimate insurance > company concerns over establishing fire-safe wiring standards.   Correct, but it took a concerted effort on the part of APOBA and the AIO to get the National Fire Protection Association to finally recognize that new pipe organs are even being built (they were talking at one time of deleting Article 650, which is the Article that covers pipe organ wiring altogether -similar to when the sections on Knob-and-Tube wiring (remember that stuff?) was deleted.   BTW, Knob-and-Tube wiring is another example of "Grandfathering" of wiring: if you leave it ALONE, all is well, but if you do any remodeling to your house, you'd better kick in an extra few $K to re-wire the house because it's not gonna pass inspection anymore.   > Your primary concern in using older wiring should be its condition; and, > how willing you are to rely on "ringing-out" wires to unscramble them, > instead of using uniform color-codes (which is usually my first choice).   As inexpensive as TELCO cable is (and in this day and age of "skinny-wire" digital phone systems) MILES of TELCO cables can be had from the Dumpsters of the local TELCO Switching offices or office buildings that have been re-wired with newer CAT5 or Fiber cables. Given that fact, there is NO excuse for giving bad advice to retain illegal wiring in any pipe organ. Since most residence projects involve moving an organ from some location to another, "Grandfathering" simply is not an option because it would be an incorrect interpretation of the intention of that code provision.   In all events, the most important thing to do on any organ installation; whether or not it retains the old cotton-covered wiring or not is to go through the circuitry and provide fusing at no more than groups of 5 amp circuits in the Return wires, unless you're installing a new Peterson (or similar) Solid State control system which would already have the necessary fusing built-in. The thought of 30 amps, or MORE of DC rectifier going through a #24 or #26 cotton-covered wire until the wire melts conjures up images of pennies in the fuse box that we all know and hate, which is what burns houses down.   Make no mistake about it: unprotected #24 cotton-covered wire in an older installation, especially if it's been "updated" with beefy 70 Amp Astron rectifiers is a fire waiting to happen.   Fuses and fuse holders are readily and inexpensively available on-line from such sources as Digi-Key http://www.digikey.com and a few hours of work with a spool of # 14 THHN Stranded wire for running new "Returns" with a series of in-line fuses back to the rectifier on the magnet returns will do WONDERS to your peace of mind and ability to sleep at night.   Faithfully, Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO (Who also doubles as a Registered Electrical Contractor) SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Cotton covered wire From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 00:21:50 EDT     In a message dated 9/23/01 3:55:25 PM, grandcornet@earthlink.net writes:   > >Hi List,   >Blaine is correct. The NEC is most applicable to >commercial work, such as new organ installations.   One must also remember there may be local and state requirements in electrical codes that would or could be applied to a home organ.     >Older organs with cotton >covered cabling (and there are legions of them) were grandfathered in and >operate just fine. >The NEC changes were largely fostered by legitimate >insurance company concerns over establishing fire-safe wiring >standards.     > A home installation need not adhere,   Why on earth would anyone want to even risk burning down their HOME and everything in it by re-using antiquated, dirty, brittle or fraying 75 year =   year old plus wiring that even the insurance industry feels is not safe = for commercial use or presents added risks??? A smoldering fire in a church which is mostly brick, concrete, little to = burn usually wouldn't be a big deal and can be put out quickly, but in your = house with plastics, urethane foam cushions, carpeting, furniture, books and = paper, cloth etc a fire can start and move very rapidly while you sleep.     >Your primary concern in using older wiring should be >its condition; and, how willing you are to rely on "ringing-out" wires   I would say the primary concern should be safety, if it's cloth covered it =   should go in the trash without hesitation and with no second thoughts, period! Wiring is nothing to play games with and DC can start a fire as = hot and devastatingly deadly as AC.     Randall, who was once almost cooked alive in bed by a defective = space-heater because it's internal fan failed and it's plastic case melted and caught = fire.   http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/