DIYAPASON-L Digest #510 - Friday, February 1, 2002
 
[Fwd: Re: Church-like structures for sale...]
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com>
organ update
  by <kimbalman@earthlink.net>
cohousing (was Re: Not a Dilemma, a SOLUTION!)
  by "Ed Stauff" <edward.stauff@verizon.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Not a Dilemma, a SOLUTION!
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Reverberation
  by <kschliet@execpc.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Reverberation
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
RE: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Frank Vanaman" <fvanaman@speakeasy.org>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
HOME REVERB.
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: [Residence Organs]  reverberation
  by "Jon" <sparky@CEINetworks.com>
Re: Buying a Church
  by <Jess4203@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: [Fwd: Re: Church-like structures for sale...] From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 01:02:02 -0800   ???? I don't have the foggiest idea how that message got translated into MIME format! Here it is again, the way I thought I sent it the first time:   Check out this website for possible organ-friendly rooms. But, it may be kind of hard to find one of these available in the average residential neighborhood. http://www.missilebases.com/2001/20thpage1.html These are former Atlas & Titan ICBM missile sites.   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: organ update From: <kimbalman@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:07:51 -0600   Hi Folks,   I just thought I would post an update on my installation of the former Lansdowne 3/8 Kimball. I have sett up all the manual chests, installed = all the trems in a tower configuration, two on the bottom and two above. All regulators and windlines are installed, pressures have been set by guage. = I have tested pipe length on those pipes that will need to be mitered. = There will no be as many as I thought (thank god).   The Artisan relay has been instaled in the chambers and in the console. Testing is complete. I have rebuild the gong and installed a new 24" gong on the original action. It has a very nice sound.   I have four rack boards to make which I will start on next. I will also = be rebuilding the swell motors in preparation for the setting up of the = shades.   I have taken lots of pics of all this work and hope to get my web site updated very soon. www.theatreorgans.com/mississippi/jacksonkimball/   Thanks   John Durgan Jackson Mississippi    
(back) Subject: cohousing (was Re: Not a Dilemma, a SOLUTION!) From: "Ed Stauff" <edward.stauff@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:23:14 -0500   Here's *my* approach to this problem:   My family is part of a fledgling cohousing community looking to build in Vermont. (If you don't know what cohousing is, think of it as a condo community where all the future residents get together beforehand to design =   it.) I intend to make sure that the common house (a building containing shared community facilities) contains a space large enough to do justice to a pipe organ -- and then install one there. Something I could probably =   never afford to do in a single-family residence. Hopefully there will be more than one organist in the community!   So... anyone want to move to the Burlington/Montpelier area in a few years? I'm hoping for a 3/50 classical instrument; for more (way more!) details, see "http://www.mewsic.com/Ed/Organ".   -- Ed   +---------------+---------------------------------+------------------+ | Edward Stauff | Software engineer, bibliophile, | "Specialization | | ed@mewsic.com | musician, lexophile, cohouser, | is for insects." | | Fitchburg, MA | ferroequinologist, woodworker, | -- Lazarus Long | | WA1ZBR | husband, dad. (Order varies.) | (R. A. Heinlein) | +---------------+---------------------------------+------------------+  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:06:19 -0600 (CST)   Hello list;   Back in the middle 80's I experimented with adding electronic reverb to the pipe organ I had in my residence back then. A friend of mine brought over some of his studio equipment. He used Sure professional recording mics (not ultra high end expensive ones), a Yamaha digital reverb unit, and a studio monitor amp with speakers.   The results were actually good but the trick was to have the electronic sound system set up so that when the organ was being played, the electronic sound did not distract ones ears away from the live acoustic sound from the organ.   Microphone placement becomes an issue if the organ is behind swell shades. If you put the mics inside the chamber you have to somehow attenuate the gain as the shades open or close accordingly. If you put the mics on the outside of the shades or within the listening room you need to use very directional mics to prevent sound reflections and other room sounds from being picked up by the mics.   No matter what we did we could not get the system to sound completely natural. We got the best results when we put the mics right in the chamber and then setup the reverb speakers in a room ajoining the listening room or in other words, not in the same room as where the console is. That way the reverb speakers did not distract from the acoustic sound although the effect of hearing the reverb through the doorway to the ajoining room was unatural.   Gary K.        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 07:04:59 -0800   Electronic reverb can be done, and it does sound ALMOST natural when it is done correctly, but it isn't cheap or easy. The best example I heard was in a small (c18' x 20') room. Small speakers, 3" diameter or so, were mounted about every 3' in the ceiling and walls. They were fed by an amplifier (tube, remember this is the 1960s) and the reverb supplied by a Hammond spring unit. The result was that the reverberations seemed to = come from everywhere, not a specific location. That effect alone made the rather metallic 'spring-reverb' sound bearable. With that idea of speaker placement, and the addition of modern delay equipment, it would be very acceptable. One of the main things to remember is that the mind plays a big role in what is acceptable and what is not. 'Cathedral sound' in a small room might sound OK, but the mind won't accept it. Keep the echo to a minimum, get the sound to come from several directions just like real life, and it will be OK. The small speakers are inexpensive, and as highs and lows suffer the most attenuation, they won't be sorely missed in the reverb. FWIW.   Bob, who's chamber space is bigger than the listening area... ;-) At 08:06 AM 2/1/02 -0600, Trailrider wrote: >Hello list; > >Back in the middle 80's I experimented with adding electronic reverb to >the pipe organ I had in my residence back then. A friend of mine brought >over some of his studio equipment. He used Sure professional recording >mics (not ultra high end expensive ones), a Yamaha digital reverb unit, >and a studio monitor amp with speakers. > >The results were actually good but the trick was to have the electronic >sound system set up so that when the organ was being played, the >electronic sound did not distract ones ears away from the live acoustic >sound from the organ. > >Microphone placement becomes an issue if the organ is behind swell = shades. >If you put the mics inside the chamber you have to somehow attenuate the >gain as the shades open or close accordingly. If you put the mics on the >outside of the shades or within the listening room you need to use very >directional mics to prevent sound reflections and other room sounds from >being picked up by the mics. > >No matter what we did we could not get the system to sound completely >natural. We got the best results when we put the mics right in the = chamber >and then setup the reverb speakers in a room ajoining the listening room >or in other words, not in the same room as where the console is. That way >the reverb speakers did not distract from the acoustic sound although the >effect of hearing the reverb through the doorway to the ajoining room was >unatural. > >Gary K. > > > > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 11:19:56 -0600   Bob Loesch wrote: > > Electronic reverb can be done, and it does sound ALMOST > natural when it is done correctly, but it isn't cheap > or easy.,,, Correct. While we are talking about it, let's throw in another product recently available: Lexicon Model 100. This device is far, far superior to a Hammond spring, but doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Available from most mail-order music instrumentation firms (rock and roll band equipment) for less than $300.00. I have another consultant/physicist/engineering friend who designs completely "natural" sounding acoustics in large, modern halls that are hopelessly devoid of reflective walls. However, these are VERY expensive. You have to be building a major concert center to afford the expense. This way, the architects get their desires for plush creature comforts and the environment is music friendly. He grew up using the Lexicon systems. Now, he has some very sophisticated systems that can recreate any acoustical environment you desire. So, the technology is there. All we need is a bank accout flushed with several hundred thousand dollars of surplus cash. <grins> Who knows? Maybe in 20 years we will all expect electronic acoustics in our meeting halls, and they will be reasonably priced. F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:36:17 -0500   I had a 1996 MDS Allen organ a couple of years back before I started my pipe organ. The reverb in this organ sounded horrible. So from some advice =   I got from Pipeorg-L, I bought a Microverb 4 that I connected between the line output of the organ and the amplifier. This basically added reverb = to the organ sound, but in my opinion made a vast improvement, although it = was still a little fake sounding. For the Allen I think it was a big improvement, but I don't know about the real pipes. About a year or so ago =   I did a little experimenting using a mike, the Microverb, amp and = speakers. The only mike I could quickly lay my hands on was the wireless mike from church. As this mike was quite non directional I had problems with = feedback so had to be careful of speaker placement.   As I have a two story organ room, I found that as long as the speakers = were at the second story level as are the pipes, facing away from me, that the sound was promising. This was just a crude test so I know it could be better. Will I pursue this more? I don't know. As my room is shaping up it =   does and will have some more natural reverb which I much prefer. The problem is that I really would like a 2-4 second cathedral reverberation rather than maybe .5-1 second. Right now if I make a loud, abrupt sound in =   the room it will reverberate for maybe 1 second. Playing the organ though it's much less, but the room definitely sounds live. One just needs to = make a sound in the adjoining kitchen and one immediately hears it echo in the organ room. All carpeting and padding of any kind is absent.   When I get time I'll do some more experimenting.     Eric     At 09:57 AM 2/1/2002 +1300, you wrote: >I recently bought 2nd-hand for $25 a Sansui Reverberation Amplifier = RA-500. >As my organ room is acoustically dead and there is no chance whatever of >getting any reverberation, I bought this amp to see if I could create any >artificial reverb for the large pipe organ going in. I thought, perhaps = if I >put a couple of mikes above the organ,     >Does anyone know if this idea works? Have you heard it? What of this = Sansui >amp - is it a good machine? Does the quality of the mikes make much >difference? Is two enough? >Th    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Not a Dilemma, a SOLUTION! From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:02:17 -0500   Go for it Randy!     At 04:48 PM 1/31/2002 -0500, you wrote:       >eric, > >you stole my idea! > >its really funny that you mention this cause right now i'm in the process >of trying to do exactly what you describe. > >i'm currently single (and probably will stay that way since my girlfriend >now thinks i'm completely nuts for wanting to live in a chruch) and >lookin    
(back) Subject: Reverberation From: <kschliet@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:12:36 -0600 (CST)   Ok, I've got to put my two cents worth in here. If you are going to enhance a room electronically, it is very difficult and very expensive to get a proper result, but it IS possible. First, you have to start with as DEAD a room as possible. You want a dead room because the human brain calculates the size of the space based upon the time difference between the direct sound and the first reflection that it hears. This is why we can judge the size of a room even with our eyes closed. A dead room will eliminate the early reflections and allow us to controll them with the system. Next, you need to emulate the reverberation characteristics of a real space. Reverberation is reflections of the direct sound coming off of the myriad surfaces in a large room. This is why a gothic cathedral and a movie theatre of the same dimensions would still sound different. In order to emulate this effect, you need multiple microphones in the room, feeding into a delay matrix, and then out through multiple amplifiers and speakers. The delay matrix feeds each microphone's input to multiple outputs each with a different amplitude and delay. While is sounds complicated, it's actually easy to construct using one of the newer digital processors such as the Peavey Media Matrix or BSS soundweb. Of course, the trickiest part is balancing the whole thing so that you get convincing reverb while not driving the system into regeneration (feedback). Hope this brief overview helps, I'd be happy to continue the discussion with anyone wanting more info. Kurt      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Reverberation From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:35:13 -0600   Loren Whitney's studio organ had electronic reverb which was very good = and really enhanced the organ. If you didn't know that the organ had reverb added you wouldn't have realized that it was there it was so natural = sounding.   jch    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Frank Vanaman" <fvanaman@speakeasy.org> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:43:29 -0500   Hi everyone.   I have a couple of thoughts that might be of interest to the use of reverb in small spaces. This would be an entirely different approach, BTW, than Kurt's suggestion of completely deadening the room and applying only = electronically generated reverb. Actually, it's nearly a complete opposite! Erhm.   One thing seems to me to be obvious: if the eyes and ears can't reconcile, the mind won't be convinced. Sounds simple, but time and time again I've heard people's fake reverb-o-phones set to put some astonishing reverb out which might sound quite good on its own, but it's installed in a very small (and usually very dead) room, where the visual cues suggest that any sound should be sucked up by the carpet and furniture before it even = stops!   An idea that might be interesting if you've got a somewhat live room to start with: instead of adding reverb, why not try a little delay? If the room = has enough hard surfaces to reverberate even just a bit, take a multieffects unit and use a delay setting and feed it into the room, and let the room's natural reverb 'process' the delayed signal as well as the original = signal, the room's apparent size can be opened up a bit without giving the impression that something 'unreal' is happening. You'd be letting the = little bit of natural ring the room has work on the original sound, as well as = that sound arriving just a bit later, giving the impression that the room is a bit bigger, perhaps.   My living room, which holds the console for my currently non-playing pipe organ, a rodgers Trio, a Wersi Galaxy, and a 5' 4" Knabe "mini Grand" (my term), has a little carpeting in it, and enough hard surfaces that sounds reverberate for a short (very short...) period. When I was experimenting with using an Alesis Nanoverb to process the sound of the Wersi, I started first with a reverb setting, which sounded horrid. I quickly discovered that a short delay setting, fed to an amplifier and a pair of speakers aimed at the walls or the ceiling (or at least in some direction that's not directly pointing at the listener), gave the = impression of the same room, as it were, but just a bit bigger-- which suits me just fine. I'd expect the effect to improve with more sources (i.e., speakers).   I'd shy away from any kind of processor setting that tried to give the impression of a substantial space in view of my first point, being that if the eyes see a living room but the ears hear the Chicago Stadium, the = brain will not be convinced no matter how good the reverb processor is! Of = course, if you spend much of your time in the room with the lights out or with = your eyes closed, the effect could be quite pleasant and convincing! ;)   Just a few thoughts...   Frank          
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Mac Hayes" <mach37@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:05:41 -0800   "F. Richard Burt" wrote: > ... he has some very sophisticated systems that can recreate any > acoustical environment you desire. So, the technology is there. > All we need is a bank accout flushed with several hundred thousand > dollars of surplus cash. <grins>     For that price, one could build an actual music hall instead of simulating the effect of one.   Mac Hayes  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:48:37 -0600   Mac Hayes wrote: > > "F. Richard Burt" wrote: > > ... he has some very sophisticated systems that can recreate any > > acoustical environment you desire. So, the technology is there. > > All we need is a bank accout flushed with several hundred thousand > > dollars of surplus cash. <grins> > > For that price, one could build an actual music hall instead of > simulating the effect of one. Yes, except the new generation of architects are not depending the natural layout to create the desirable sound enviornment, such as with the Detroit Symphony Hall or Carnegie Hall/New York. They are going for looks first and sound second; seemingly backward to my way of thinking. I do not remember all of the halls my friend recently worked on, but one lingers in my mind. If I remember correctly, the new symphony hall in Denver has an electronic environment. As with any new technology, time will tell if it works out as expected. Then, we will have to see if the music listening public at large will accept it. Can we fool all of the people all of the time? Symphony halls and churches might be an ultimate test. Do not pre-judge these pioneering works on what we have done with simple experiments with far lesser capable systems. This is a whole new art-form. F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: HOME REVERB. From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:00:48 +1300   Thank you, everyone, for your contributions on my problem here. I shall = try it, and let you know later in the year whether it works or not, after the first stage of the organ is completed. I should say a few things, though. First, I do not have any money for anything, as I'm now retired on a small pension. Second, I have that reverb.amp. and will not be getting hold of anything else. Third, there is no possibility whatever of me doing anything to the organ room itself: the floor is concrete, sure, but the wide walls are of thin panelling and completely covered floor-to-eaves with bookcases and record shelves among other things. The ceiling is not lined yet, but it will have to be with particle-board about 1" thick at maximum. Believe me, if it was possible = to get any natural reverb, I would. Acutally, I should admit I've done BMus Hons papers in acoustics and have been an amateur (in the sense of unpaid) acoustics consultant for about 37 years, so do know a bit of the subject. = I decidedly dislike electronic voice and music amplification, and electronic "organs", and avoid them if at all possible, and in my parishes (I'm a retired vicar) I forbade the use of microphones for any purpose whatever, preferring to teach my people how to speak and be understood clearly in a big space. Thanks again, everyone, Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] reverberation From: "Jon" <sparky@CEINetworks.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:23:26 -0500   Hey Eric,   Try creating a separate "reverb" channel. Using a network of resistors, = sum the inputs of all your amps to one signal. Take that into your reverb = unit and run its output (mono or stereo your choice) to a power amp with = separate speakers. This way your "audio system" on the organ doesn't get hampered = up with trying to reproduce the reverb (this is one of the numerous flaws in the allen (reverb system)).   For my Conn organ (everybody can roll their eyes now), I summed up the channels into a friends Microverb 2 and took a mono output to a good ole peavey amp I had laying around. The output of the amp (this is where it gets interesting) feed 16 3" speakers (series/par combo) which reside in = the stairwell. To make it more realistic, I boosted the bass on the reverb = and cut the treble way down... Not only did the speaker "cluster" sound a = little tinny, but the reverb units (which are not designed for organs) boost = treble wwwaaaayyyy too much if left untouched....     ~jon     On 2/1/02 12:36 PM, "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> wrote:   > I had a 1996 MDS Allen organ a couple of years back before I started my > pipe organ. The reverb in this organ sounded horrible. So from some = advice > I got from Pipeorg-L, I bought a Microverb 4 that I connected between = the > line output of the organ and the amplifier. This basically added reverb = to > the organ sound, but in my opinion made a vast improvement, although it = was > still a little fake sounding. For the Allen I think it was a big > improvement, but I don't know about the real pipes. About a year or so = ago > I did a little experimenting using a mike, the Microverb, amp and = speakers. > The only mike I could quickly lay my hands on was the wireless mike from > church. As this mike was quite non directional I had problems with = feedback > so had to be careful of speaker placement. > > As I have a two story organ room, I found that as long as the speakers = were > at the second story level as are the pipes, facing away from me, that = the > sound was promising. This was just a crude test so I know it could be > better. Will I pursue this more? I don't know. As my room is shaping up = it > does and will have some more natural reverb which I much prefer. The > problem is that I really would like a 2-4 second cathedral reverberation > rather than maybe .5-1 second. Right now if I make a loud, abrupt sound = in > the room it will reverberate for maybe 1 second. Playing the organ = though > it's much less, but the room definitely sounds live. One just needs to = make > a sound in the adjoining kitchen and one immediately hears it echo in = the > organ room. All carpeting and padding of any kind is absent. > > When I get time I'll do some more experimenting. > > > Eric > > > At 09:57 AM 2/1/2002 +1300, you wrote: >> I recently bought 2nd-hand for $25 a Sansui Reverberation Amplifier = RA-500. >> As my organ room is acoustically dead and there is no chance whatever = of >> getting any reverberation, I bought this amp to see if I could create = any >> artificial reverb for the large pipe organ going in. I thought, perhaps = if I >> put a couple of mikes above the organ, > > >> Does anyone know if this idea works? Have you heard it? What of this = Sansui >> amp - is it a good machine? Does the quality of the mikes make much >> difference? Is two enough? >> Th > > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Buying a Church From: <Jess4203@aol.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 23:42:41 EST   Hi group:   I am glad Randy spoke up, I had heard of his project thru a mutual friend, = it's an interesting idea. I have a friend, Bradley Rule, an organbuilder = in Jefferson City, Tennessee who has his workshop in an old church and = another friend, a photographer, who rented a small vacant church for his = studio several years ago. Old church buildings might be cheaper than most = buildings, as they aren't directly suited to much besides church uses and = . . . organs. I guess the ideal would be a vacent church complete with = intact organ . . . out in the country where land is cheap . . . hmmmm . . = .   Regards, Roy Kersey in Knoxville, where we have more churches than bars.