DIYAPASON-L Digest #522 - Tuesday, February 19, 2002
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Repeat messages
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Solenoids - rolling your own
  by <d.doerschuk@att.net>
More on Solenoids - rolling your own
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "Dan Emery" <danemery@yahoo.ca>
Re: making DE valves
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "Jimmy" <jrbaird@erols.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: making DE valves
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Repeat messages From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:11:14 -0500   That's OK, it's the largest amount of single day messages this list has = produced for some time. :-)   Jess4203@aol.com wrote:   > Hi Group: > > Sorry to have sent yesterday's message three times. I thought the mouse = was stuck, but evidently it was working way too well! > > Regards, > Roy Kersey > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Solenoids - rolling your own From: <d.doerschuk@att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:35:55 +0000   Christopher,   In response to your interest in winding solenoids, here's some information that may be of interest:   1. "Build a Universal Coil Winding Machine" by David Gingery, has very clear and explicit plans for building a coil winder. It will wind any electromagnet for a pipe organ that you would reasonably want to make, includes a clever little coil wind counter, and contains from $30 to $60 worth of parts in it depending on your scrounge ability. Mine cost $60. :-) It's available for $8.95 as Item #386 from: Lindsay Publications, Inc. PO Box 538, Bradley IL 60915 (815)935-5353 http://www.lindsaybks.com Their free catalog is full of some of the most bizarre old reprints you will ever see. If you like shade-tree engineering, these are the guys.   2. "Solenoids, Electromagnets, and Electromagnetic Windings" by Charles R. Underhill (reprint, Item # 20960 also from Lindsay Publications, $15.95) will give you a good basic "how-to" understanding. It's wildly cheaper than modern texts and saves you the minor inconvenience of a couple semesters of Electromagnetics and Waves which, nowadays, wouldn't tell you how to wind the damn thing anyway! :-)   3. Cheap magnet wire in any flavor you want is available from: The Coax Connection Joe Cassata, KA9CAI 10 S 226 Meadow Lane Naperville IL 60564   I hope this helps you; very best of luck in your project!   David Doerschuk  
(back) Subject: More on Solenoids - rolling your own From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:52:32 -0600   d.doerschuk@att.net wrote: > > Christopher, > > In response to your interest in winding solenoids... Don't know where you are located, but a trip over to Highland, Illinois, and a visit to the Wicks factory will get you a first hand, eye witness view of how they have been building these gadgets for almost a century. They have a room that may be more than 2000 square feet in which their coil winding/magnet department is located. It's a very impressive operation and you might gain sight of answers to questions that will not come up until you are in the heat of actually winding them. It's worth the tour, and it's free. Wicks seems to be one of the few that build the whole banana now. F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "Dan Emery" <danemery@yahoo.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:41:35 -0500 (EST)   --0-1399153837-1014136895=3D:94043 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii     Hello everyone, I remember hearing about a 'leiblich gedeckt' action. Can anyone enlighten = me? Is this a device which allows a set of bourdon basses to be used as a = gedeckt too? If so, does it just restrict the airflow to the chest or is = there more to it? Or did I just hear wrong? The bottom 2 octaves of pedals on my residence organ are 'amplified reed' = which I would like to replace with pipes. The builder provides a bourdon = and gedeckt by simply using different settings on the amplifier for each = stop. many thanks ...       --------------------------------- Web-hosting solutions for home and business! Yahoo! Website Services.   --0-1399153837-1014136895=3D:94043 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii   <P>Hello everyone, <P>I remember hearing about a 'leiblich gedeckt' action. Can anyone = enlighten me? Is this a device which allows a set of bourdon basses to be = used as a gedeckt too? If so, does it just restrict the airflow to the = chest or is there more to it? Or did I just hear wrong? <P>The bottom 2 octaves of pedals on my&nbsp;residence organ are = 'amplified reed' which I would like to replace with pipes. The builder = provides a bourdon and gedeckt by simply using different settings on the = amplifier for each stop. <P>many thanks ...</P><p><br><hr size=3D1>Web-hosting solutions for home = and business! <a href=3D"http://ca.website.yahoo.com"><b>Yahoo! Website = Services</b></a>.<br> --0-1399153837-1014136895=3D:94043--  
(back) Subject: Re: making DE valves From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:25:49 -0500   Christopher Sabatowich" <c.sabatowich@sthedwigchurch.zzn.com> asked about home-brew valve units, and there have been some interesting replies.   I, too, had considered such a project (many years ago) and even wound a = few magnets (solid core, not hollow cored solenoids). I then discovered how *difficult* it is to design an electromagnetic valve that will actually open against even modest wind pressures. The swinging armature design = used by Wicks, Reisner, Klann, Mathers, and others is no accident or "fad" -- = it is probably the best way to make a workable unit. (Solenoids have been tried, and one example is the unit from Kimber-Allen in England, with = their interesting speed adjustment. These units are reported to have a fatal flaw, in that bits of dust and dirt can cause the plunger to bind, which never happens in the shop but always after the instrument is installed.)   Looking at some older and newer Reisner and Wicks units, it is clear that some amount of precision is needed to make the armature swing without actually touching the magnet core but with it moving ever closer as it reaches "full open". The hinge methods have varied over time, usually in an attempt to avoid later binding due to dirt or rust or other crudiness.   As Sebastion Gluck wrote on PIPORG-L, the cost of new units is low = compared to (commercial) labor costs, direct and indirect (for later repair work). For the hobbyist, true, $300 per rank seems high. I'd suggest searching for used units, perhaps in the form of old (but DRY!) windchests that are being replaced. I've been able to obtain quite a few Reisner units for about $1 each. Sometimes I've had to lug away massive chests and do quite a bit of work to remove and clean the units. New valves are also = available from Organ Supply (for the Reisner units), and so you can replace grunged valves or ones of the "wrong" size for your project. A toothbrush and perhaps a little talcum powder will do wonders in restoring the soft leather valve surface. If the units are *rusty*, though, be sure to check them very carefully; better still, avoid rusty units.   One way to find such parts is to make friends with your local organ builder, tuner, or service man. Such a friendship can be most helpful, = and you might also then be "drafted" for occasional activities like hold notes (yawn!), moving heavy organ parts (groan!), and so on, all of which is actually very good experience. You *might* even get paid! ;-)   I've also built chests with electric exhaust valves and leather poaches. These exhaust valves are also available as "experienced" devices and the leather, springs, and pipe valves are available from OSI and others. Because a hobbyist's labor costs are "zero", it might prove more = economical to build electro-pneumatic chests than electro-mechanical ones. It is certainly worth-while experimenting, especially if you can get some materials for "free".   As to what items a professional builder buys or makes, it all depends. Some builders make practically everything; there are still casting tables and large crucibles for melting pipe metal to be found in some builder's shops. (And some no longer *use* these items but instead purchase their pipe metal in sheets already cast and perhaps even already planned to thickness.) Other than Wicks, I don't believe that any builders make = their own "directly electrical" pipe valves. (Well, OSI does, since they took over Reisner, and OSI is certainly capable of building an entire instrument.)   Similarly, few builders make their own blowers, although Wicks and Schantz (Zephyr) do. (That's also something that a hobbyist could do -- and I've done it -- but I'd hardly recommend a home-build blower over a professionally-built one. The home-made ones tend to be noisy and they sometimes disintegrate!)   Anyway, sorry for the lengthy blather, and best wishes on your project, Christopher! Building (assembling, whatever) a residence pipe organ, even a small one, is a large enough project, and it is good to avoid getting bogged down in things that aren't central to the result.   Larry Chace (whose current project started maybe 22 years ago)            
(back) Subject: Re: Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:40:47 -0500   Dan Emery <danemery@yahoo.ca> asked about "Lieblich Gedeckt" actions. There are usually a small pressure regulator whose output pressure can be changed from "normal" to "lower". The output is usually directed to an offset chest containing the bottom 12 notes of a 16' Bourdon, and so, on "lower" pressure, that set speaks more softly (and slightly flat and perhaps more slowly!). The rest of the two stops (Bourdon and Lieblich Gedeckt) are usually gotten from separate ranks, because the effects of = the reduced pressure are more problematic for smaller pipes.   Another approach that I've seen on a tracker organ (Morey & Barnes) is to have two sliders, one with smaller holes. That second one is operated by the "Lieblich Gedeckt" stopknob, and so the pipes get reduced wind at = their feet.   I'm planning on trying another approach, one that Wicks has used on some small instruments. In this scheme, each pipe has two valves, a larger one and a smaller one. If the larger one is used, you have the "Bourdon", and if the smaller one is used, you have the "Lieblich". (In fact, if both = are used, you get a little more than the Bourdon, or you *might*!) The advantage of this extra mechanism is that each pipe can be regulated for the best effect.   My approach will be to have a little regulating slider right above each valve and then have a common chamber above the pair of sliders, with the pipe sitting on top of the common chamber or with a suitable conductor running over to the pipe toe. That would let me regulate the pipe's = speech independently for each valve. Depending upon the results, I might have = the valves arranged for "A", "B", and "A+B" or just as "A" and "A+B".   If your pipes have regulators in the feed (lead toes or butterfly valves = or whatever), then you can try having just one extra regulating device that = is associated with the "small" valve.   These things are all "cheating", and so it is best to avoid trying to get too large a difference between the large and small sounds.   Yet another approach was used by the Link Organ Company (and also by a small builder in Rochester, NY). In this case, the pipe has two flues. The normal one is feed normally through the pipe's foot. The second one runs only 1/2 of the width of the pipe (and is centered side to side); it is formed from a hollow in the cap and is separated from the normal flue = by a very thin piece of veneer. It is feed via a wind conductor from its own valve unit (full pressure) to the front of the pipe cap. It looks a bit ugly, but it works. Link used that to get a 16' Tibia Clausa and a 16' Bourdon from the same pipes (again, just the bottom 12 notes). If you = have a rather large scale 16' Bourdon, then you can try this, making your own replacement caps with the second flue.   Larry Chace        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "Jimmy" <jrbaird@erols.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:28:42 -0500   Dan Emery wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I remember hearing about a 'leiblich gedeckt' action. Can anyone > enlighten me? Is this a device which allows a set of bourdon basses to > be used as a gedeckt too? If so, does it just restrict the airflow to > the chest or is there more to it?   Yup, that's about it. Be aware, that when you use it, and restrict the airflow to the chest (pipes), the pipes will go out of tune. I guess that back then when this was popular for organs , no one cared or noticed this.   Jimmy  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:38:09 -0600   Jimmy wrote: > > Dan Emery wrote: * * * > Yup, that's about it. Be aware, that when you use it, and > restrict the airflow to the chest (pipes), the pipes will > go out of tune. The most common application is on an offset chest, where the only pipes affected will be the pedal stopped bass. So, other pipes are not affected by it. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: making DE valves From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:57:12 -0600   Hello, everyone!   To Larry Chace: Thank you for your "lengthy blather"! [your term -- not mine!] Needless to say, I agree completely with all that you have said in =   your very thoughtful posting. I had started to write my own version of = the same basic thing -- but hadn't completed it yet -- thanks for saving me = the trouble! (you said it better than I could have anyway!)   Permit me to copy the last few lines, for anyone that might have managed = to miss the very end of Larry's posting. I think this is the most important idea of all, actually.   At 12:25 PM 2/19/2002 -0500, Larry Chace wrote: <snipping LOTS of really good info> >Anyway, sorry for the lengthy blather, and best wishes on your project, >Christopher! Building (assembling, whatever) a residence pipe organ, = even >a small one, is a large enough project, and it is good to avoid getting >bogged down in things that aren't central to the result.   Christopher, I commend your interest in constructing your own magnets, but =   if the ultimate goal is to obtain an operable and reliable windchest for use in an organ, you'll probably be better off finding some sort of premanufactured units. You'll have plenty of other challenges and = problems to solve...<g>!   Now, this is not to suggest that you couldn't still experiment, research, and/or somehow develop a new sort of organ magnet (or improve an existing design) -- there's a long history of all things 'organic' having been developed in just such a way. I wish I had more time available for just such "experimentation" occasionally, in fact.   Thanks everyone, for a good thread!   Cheers,   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR