DIYAPASON-L Digest #525 - Friday, February 22, 2002
 
Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves
  by <Jess4203@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves
  by "Tony Newnham" <organist@tsnp.fsnet.co.uk>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves From: <Jess4203@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:18:40 EST     --part1_8f.179ab1e8.29a74ad0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi Dan:   I'm curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience will recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does have = two ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. If you have nine = feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. Mitering or Haskelling isn't necessary. My 16 foot Bourdon CC is laid on it's side and winded through = the cap in front (that is below the mouth), the toe having been cut off and plugged. It measures a bit less than 5x6 inches inside measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, just under 9 feet. The casters that roll the = organ around are screwed into it, it's part of the case. This is not that = unusual, an organ builder friend of mine used a 16 foot CC for a walkboard at the = back of the organ case. You stand on it when you open the doors in back of the =   Swell to tune the organ. The next five of the low octave of the Bourdon = are stacked on the CC pipe and make up the back of the case.   As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be about a foot long, so = you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the open pipe right up against the ceiling, it will go flat. However, you don't need a lot of = room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe eight inches for a small scale pipe. I think the worst that could happen is you might have to lay = two or three of that rank down, too. Small "off-chests" for your added = octaves shouldn't be that hard to find. Twelve noters are pretty common, I think. = You might be able to use two octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete your chimney flute down to CC (bottom octave often = don't have chimneys) and let it double as a 16 foot pedal stop and the bottom octave for the 8 foot chimney flute. Another option would be to find an = open wood or metal 8 foot stop and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. Then you would have two flutes to play against each other in running = passages.   Of course, this leads to questions of scale. What do our experts say = about matching wooden lower octaves to metal ranks?   Regards, Roy Kersey In Knoxville   --part1_8f.179ab1e8.29a74ad0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Dan: <BR> <BR>I'm curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience = will recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does = have two ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. &nbsp;If = you have nine feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. = &nbsp;Mitering or Haskelling isn't necessary. &nbsp;My 16 foot Bourdon CC = is laid on it's side and winded through the cap in front (that is below = the mouth), the toe having been cut off and plugged. &nbsp;It measures a = bit less than 5x6 inches inside measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, = just under 9 feet. &nbsp;The casters that roll the organ around are = screwed into it, it's part of the case. &nbsp;This is not that unusual, an = organ builder friend of mine used a 16 foot CC for a walkboard at the back = of the organ case. &nbsp;You stand on it when you open the doors in back = of the Swell to tune the organ. &nbsp;The next five of the low octave of = the Bourdon are stacked on the CC pipe and make up the back of t <BR> <BR>As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be about a foot long, = so you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the open pipe = right up against the ceiling, it will go flat. &nbsp;However, you don't = need a lot of room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe eight = inches for a small scale pipe. &nbsp;I think the worst that could happen = is you might have to lay two or three of that rank down, too. &nbsp;Small = "off-chests" for your added octaves shouldn't be that hard to find. = &nbsp;Twelve noters are pretty common, I think. &nbsp;You might be able to = use two octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete your chimney flute down to = CC (bottom octave often don't have chimneys) and let it double as a 16 = foot pedal stop and the bottom octave for the 8 foot chimney flute. = &nbsp;Another option would be to find an open wood or metal 8 foot stop = and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. &nbsp;Then you would have = two flutes to play against each other <BR> <BR>Of course, this leads to questions of scale. &nbsp;What do our experts = say about matching wooden lower octaves to metal ranks? <BR> <BR>Regards, <BR>Roy Kersey <BR>In Knoxville &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_8f.179ab1e8.29a74ad0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:19:04 +1300   I've seen wooden basses leading into metal flutes very many times, in = organs old and new, and it can work very well indeed. But obviously you wouldn't put a big stopt wood bass next to a small-scale stopt metal. It's best to have the wooden pipes' scale smaller than you think it should be, to = match for volume and clarity of tone. Some makes of organ deliberately put = wooden basses to all their flutes as they are often richer and warmer in tone = than stopt metals, and stay in tune better. I've even seen a number of open wood basses leading into an 8ft Open Diapason at 4ft TenC - and seen it done exceedingly well, usually 19th century organs, and usually with a harmonic bridge across a fairly narrow-scale wooden pipe. And one I saw was a haskelled 8ft open wood bass leading into an Open Diapason - and I found it exceedingly hard to tell. I wouldn't have = noticed, but that the haskells were in the showcase of this tiny 3rk organ. In other words, yes, try it, but you will most likely have to plug up the feet of the wooden pipes a bit to get a good balance. However, none of us can really tell you in advance as we haven't heard the pipes you have now, or will be getting. Regards, Ross -----Original Message----- From: Jess4203@aol.com <Jess4203@aol.com> To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Date: Friday, February 22, 2002 8:19 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves     Hi Dan:   I'm curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience = will recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does have = two ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. If you have nine feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. Mitering or Haskelling = isn't necessary. My 16 foot Bourdon CC is laid on it's side and winded through the cap in front (that is below the mouth), the toe having been cut off = and plugged. It measures a bit less than 5x6 inches inside measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, just under 9 feet. The casters that roll the = organ around are screwed into it, it's part of the case. This is not that unusual, an organ builder friend of mine used a 16 foot CC for a walkboard at the back of the organ case. You stand on it when you open the doors in back of the Swell to tune the organ. The next five of the low octave of = the Bourdon are stacked on the CC pipe and make up the back of t   As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be about a foot long, so you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the open pipe right = up against the ceiling, it will go flat. However, you don't need a lot of room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe eight inches for a small scale pipe. I think the worst that could happen is you might have = to lay two or three of that rank down, too. Small "off-chests" for your = added octaves shouldn't be that hard to find. Twelve noters are pretty common, = I think. You might be able to use two octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete your chimney flute down to CC (bottom octave often don't have chimneys) and let it double as a 16 foot pedal stop and = the bottom octave for the 8 foot chimney flute. Another option would be to = find an open wood or metal 8 foot stop and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. Then you would have two flutes to play against each other   Of course, this leads to questions of scale. What do our experts say about matching wooden lower octaves to metal ranks?   Regards, Roy Kersey In Knoxville      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves From: "Tony Newnham" <organist@tsnp.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:18:26 -0000   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_006D_01C1BB81.E216B9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Hi   One solution that I've seen is to use a stopped rank for the lowest =3D octave, plus a "helper" open pipe sounding an octave higher. Getting =3D the voicing just right should be fun (:-). This system is used in the =3D portable organ that was built for Sir John Elliot Gardener's recent Bach = =3D tour - in that, according to the diagrams in Organ Building, the helpers = =3D are actually tucked away horizontally underneath the reservoir. They =3D wouldn't need to be too loud, as they only need to fill in the missing =3D harmonics of the sopped rank.   Has anyone tried this?   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Jess4203@aol.com=3D20 To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 7:18 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves=3D20     Hi Dan:=3D20   I'm curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience =3D will recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does = =3D have two ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. If you = =3D have nine feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. Mitering or =3D Haskelling isn't necessary. My 16 foot Bourdon CC is laid on it's side = =3D and winded through the cap in front (that is below the mouth), the toe =3D having been cut off and plugged. It measures a bit less than 5x6 inches = =3D inside measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, just under 9 feet. The = =3D casters that roll the organ around are screwed into it, it's part of the = =3D case. This is not that unusual, an organ builder friend of mine used a = =3D 16 foot CC for a walkboard at the back of the organ case. You stand on = =3D it when you open the doors in back of the Swell to tune the organ. The = =3D next five of the low octave of the Bourdon are stacked on the CC pipe =3D and make up the back of t=3D20   As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be about a foot long, =3D so you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the open pipe =3D right up against the ceiling, it will go flat. However, you don't need = =3D a lot of room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe eight =3D inches for a small scale pipe. I think the worst that could happen is =3D you might have to lay two or three of that rank down, too. Small =3D "off-chests" for your added octaves shouldn't be that hard to find. =3D Twelve noters are pretty common, I think. You might be able to use two = =3D octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete your =3D chimney flute down to CC (bottom octave often don't have chimneys) and =3D let it double as a 16 foot pedal stop and the bottom octave for the 8 =3D foot chimney flute. Another option would be to find an open wood or =3D metal 8 foot stop and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. Then =3D you would have two flutes to play against each other=3D20   Of course, this leads to questions of scale. What do our experts say = =3D about matching wooden lower octaves to metal ranks?=3D20   Regards,=3D20 Roy Kersey=3D20 In Knoxville =3D20   ------=3D_NextPart_000_006D_01C1BB81.E216B9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Hi</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>One solution that I've seen is to use = a =3D stopped=3D20 rank for the lowest octave, plus a "helper" open pipe sounding an octave = =3D   higher.&nbsp; Getting the voicing just right should be fun (:-).&nbsp; =3D This=3D20 system is used in the portable organ that was built for Sir John = Elliot=3D20 Gardener's recent Bach tour - in that, according to the diagrams in =3D Organ=3D20 Building, the helpers are actually tucked away horizontally underneath =3D the=3D20 reservoir.&nbsp; They wouldn't need to be too loud, as they only need to = =3D fill in=3D20 the missing harmonics of the sopped rank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Has anyone tried this?</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Every Blessing</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Tony</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = =3D 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A href=3D3D"mailto:Jess4203@aol.com" =3D title=3D3DJess4203@aol.com>Jess4203@aol.com</A>=3D20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org"=3D20 title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org>DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 22, 2002 = =3D 7:18=3D20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] Re: = =3D Adding 8=3D20 and 16 foot octaves </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D3D2>Hi Dan: = =3D <BR><BR>I'm=3D20 curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience = will=3D20 recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does =3D have two=3D20 ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. &nbsp;If you =3D have nine=3D20 feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. &nbsp;Mitering or =3D Haskelling=3D20 isn't necessary. &nbsp;My 16 foot Bourdon CC is laid on it's side and = =3D winded=3D20 through the cap in front (that is below the mouth), the toe having =3D been cut=3D20 off and plugged. &nbsp;It measures a bit less than 5x6 inches = inside=3D20 measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, just under 9 feet. &nbsp;The = =3D casters=3D20 that roll the organ around are screwed into it, it's part of the case. = =3D   &nbsp;This is not that unusual, an organ builder friend of mine used a = =3D 16 foot=3D20 CC for a walkboard at the back of the organ case. &nbsp;You stand on =3D it when=3D20 you open the doors in back of the Swell to tune the organ. &nbsp;The =3D next five=3D20 of the low octave of the Bourdon are stacked on the CC pipe and make =3D up the=3D20 back of t <BR><BR>As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be =3D about a=3D20 foot long, so you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the = =3D open=3D20 pipe right up against the ceiling, it will go flat. &nbsp;However, you = =3D don't=3D20 need a lot of room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe =3D eight=3D20 inches for a small scale pipe. &nbsp;I think the worst that could =3D happen is=3D20 you might have to lay two or three of that rank down, too. &nbsp;Small = =3D   "off-chests" for your added octaves shouldn't be that hard to find.=3D20 &nbsp;Twelve noters are pretty common, I think. &nbsp;You might be =3D able to use=3D20 two octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete =3D your=3D20 chimney flute down to CC (bottom octave often don't have chimneys) and = =3D let it=3D20 double as a 16 foot pedal stop and the bottom octave for the 8 foot =3D chimney=3D20 flute. &nbsp;Another option would be to find an open wood or metal 8 =3D foot stop=3D20 and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. &nbsp;Then you would =3D have two=3D20 flutes to play against each other <BR><BR>Of course, this leads to =3D questions=3D20 of scale. &nbsp;What do our experts say about matching wooden lower =3D octaves to=3D20 metal ranks? <BR><BR>Regards, <BR>Roy Kersey <BR>In Knoxville=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_006D_01C1BB81.E216B9C0--    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:51:55 +1300   If you want the second harmonic, it is an awful lot cheaper of space, materials and money to belly a stopped wooden pipe. That gives the = harmonics (slightly simplifying it) 1 2 3 5 7 9 11 etc. and you can then voice the pipe quietly yet get depth and clarity because you are dropping an 8ft resultant from the harmonics in the pipe itself. Many Bourdons are built this way, still, but not obviously by builders using only machine-planed side planks. The J.W.Walker firm in the UK told me a few years ago that = they ALWAYS belly stopt wood pipes from about 3ft down, for precisely this reason, but the outside sides look parallel as they build the pipes of thickish timber to start with and then thickness them after the pipe is made, to get the directly-parallel sides. And yet a voicer in another = large UK firm told me he'd never heard such rubbish and it couldn't possibly = work. Well, I'd prefer my own ears. One of my own Bourdons at home here is by NZ-builder Jenkins (who trained with Telford). This rank was made in 1879, voiced on 2.5" wind, and CCC is 7.75" X 5.75" internally yet has only a = 1.5" cut-up, parallel upper lip. Its centre of the pipe is about 1" bigger than the ends. The block is sunk, but not very much. Tone is deep and = pervasive, but very soft and clear. No coughing or quinting, just a wonderful lower warmth that is just right for any combination of manual stops whatever, = even up close where the building's acoustics don't help. Anyone else experienced this? Ross -----Original Message----- From: Tony Newnham <organist@tsnp.fsnet.co.uk> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Date: Friday, February 22, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves     Hi   One solution that I've seen is to use a stopped rank for the lowest octave, plus a "helper" open pipe sounding an octave higher. Getting the voicing just right should be fun (:-). This system is used in the = portable organ that was built for Sir John Elliot Gardener's recent Bach tour - in that, according to the diagrams in Organ Building, the helpers are = actually tucked away horizontally underneath the reservoir. They wouldn't need to = be too loud, as they only need to fill in the missing harmonics of the sopped rank.   Has anyone tried this?   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: Jess4203@aol.com To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 7:18 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Adding 8 and 16 foot octaves     Hi Dan:   I'm curious to see what our organ builder friends of some experience will recommend to you . . . my organ is a bit like yours except it does = have two ranks that descend to 8 foot pitch and one to 16 foot. If you have = nine feet of headroom your situation is not so bad. Mitering or Haskelling = isn't necessary. My 16 foot Bourdon CC is laid on it's side and winded through the cap in front (that is below the mouth), the toe having been cut off = and plugged. It measures a bit less than 5x6 inches inside measurements, and it's 105.5 inches long, just under 9 feet. The casters that roll the = organ around are screwed into it, it's part of the case. This is not that unusual, an organ builder friend of mine used a 16 foot CC for a walkboard at the back of the organ case. You stand on it when you open the doors in back of the Swell to tune the organ. The next five of the low octave of = the Bourdon are stacked on the CC pipe and make up the back of t   As far as the diapason 8 foot C, the toe could be about a foot long, = so you are coming close to nine feet and you don't want the open pipe right = up against the ceiling, it will go flat. However, you don't need a lot of room, one of our experts will tell us how much, maybe eight inches for a small scale pipe. I think the worst that could happen is you might have = to lay two or three of that rank down, too. Small "off-chests" for your = added octaves shouldn't be that hard to find. Twelve noters are pretty common, I think. You might be able to use two octaves of wood stopped Bourdons (CC and C octaves) to complete your chimney flute down to CC (bottom octave often don't have chimneys) and let it double as a 16 foot pedal stop and = the bottom octave for the 8 foot chimney flute. Another option would be to = find an open wood or metal 8 foot stop and cap it to make a 16 foot stopped diapason. Then you would have two flutes to play against each other   Of course, this leads to questions of scale. What do our experts say about matching wooden lower octaves to metal ranks?   Regards, Roy Kersey In Knoxville