DIYAPASON-L Digest #479 - Tuesday, January 1, 2002
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Bourdon chest
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
2002: Year of the Organ
  by "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net>
Introduction
  by "Wayne Ashford" <gdonald@mediaone.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Introduction
  by "Randy Newman" <rnewman@dilligaff.Rutgers.EDU>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Bourdon chest
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Diode switches?
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Diode switches?
  by "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  residence organs
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: Diode switches?
  by "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Bourdon chest From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:57:21 EST     In a message dated 12/31/01 11:18:22 PM, Pipewheezr@aol.com writes:   >I finally have the Bourdons playing. The bottom 12 are on the original >chest. >The next 32 are on a new chest with old pouches and valves, newer = magnets. >Some of the notes don't play when energized, but when you push the valve > >stems they play. I did check the magnets for broken wires before I put >them >in. Could the magnets be for higher pressure? >Have a happy new year! >Dennis   Prolly the magnet coils are bad, I had four relays that checked fine then when put in the coils were open so they were dead. Check em with a multi tester     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: 2002: Year of the Organ From: "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:13:09 -0800 (PST)     Happy New Year!   By my own decree I declare 2002 to be the 'Year of the Organ'. I hope to finally begin (and hopefully finish) construction of my music room. With any luck I'll be able to play the organ before 2003 (at least in some form). I want to thank all the contributors to the list for their help with my questions and the interesting reading following the progress others are making. My New Year's resolution is to be better about keeping my websites up-to-date.   In some other groups there is a periodic roll-call to recap what folks are up to: here's mine, I invite others to respond as well!   John Haskey: Building a music room (18x36 with vaulted ceiling) to house an organ of approximately 15-20 ranks in the classical style.   Others?   ---john.      
(back) Subject: Introduction From: "Wayne Ashford" <gdonald@mediaone.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 07:22:00 -0500   Hello List members,   I will pick up on John Haskey's suggestion and introduce myself.   I am Wayne Ashford and live in coastal New Hampshire. A year ago I bought = a 1974 Casavant 2/9 from a church in PA.   In order to accommodate the organ, I am building an 18 by 30 post and beam addition on my home. I am doing much of the construction myself, so it is taking some time. I hope to be able to begin to set up the organ in 2 or three months.   Happy New Year everyone.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Introduction From: "Randy Newman" <rnewman@dilligaff.Rutgers.EDU> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:26:33 -0500 (EST)       Year of the organ sounds good to me. I generally just lurk around on the list but i figured i'd follow on johns invitation to let you all know what i'm up to. I currently have 3 of the 4 ranks of my very small house organ playing. a bit more wiring and winding and i hope to have the rest up and playing by the end of the month. My instrument is a 2/4 homebrew classical organ made up of mostly moller and hillgreen lane parts. It is setup in the basement in a 9'x 9' room which is an old coal bin. with only 7' ceilings, it has been a personal challance trying to fit everything in. my 7 college roomates think i'm quite nuts.   i'm currently in the process of trying to buy a house with enough space to install the 1933 2/8 moller organ that i have in storage...   happy new year.   -randy   ps- picutres of the house organ coming as soon as i clean it up enough to make it look presentable.        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Bourdon chest From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:09:11 -0500   > I finally have the Bourdons playing. The bottom 12 are on the original chest. > The next 32 are on a new chest with old pouches and valves, newer = magnets. > Some of the notes don't play when energized, but when you push the valve > stems they play. I did check the magnets for broken wires before I put them > in. Could the magnets be for higher pressure? > Dennis   Probably not, "chest" magnets should work on almost any pressure if they are properly regulated .   Troubleshooting 101. . .   Since the note speaks when you push the valve stem the problem is not = likely in the main pouchboard under the pipe. If however air gushes constantly from the valve stem hole when it is pressed and the pipe speaks slowly or not at all then a hole in the main pouchboard is likely.   Check the magnet. Make sure you are getting voltage coming through from your console. A bad solder joint or a broken cable/mixed up wiring might = be the cause here.   Try gently pushing a small dull nail into the exhaust port of the magnet. You should be able to feel the armature move about 1/16 th of an inch. If the note plays then your problem may lie in the magnet/wiring. If the = magnet exhaust port is adjustable make sure that the armature is not too tight or loose, either can cause problems   Is the magnet armature clicking when the note is played? The magnet should draw the little armature towards the poles when excited. Try removing the cap from the magnet and see if the armature sticks to the poles when = exited. (Be careful those little things roll away like crazy when you drop them!) Some armatures have little leather pads on them, these can come loose and will block the exhaust port causing a dead note. Moths like to build = nests in them as well so that is another source of annoyance. A build up of soot and dirt can also cause the magnets to go dead or cipher.   There should only be a short puff of air from the magnet exhaust when the note is played or is manually operated as above. A constant gush of air is = a sign that the primary valve has a hole in it or is not sealed properly (check the dead valves against the working valves for comparison).   There should be two holes leading back into the chest from the magnet. One leads directly into the open chest to provide air to the magnet and the other leads off to the primary valve ( the one with the valve stem) Make sure both channels are clean. Again the channel leading to the primary valve should give only a short blast of air when opened. Putting your finger over this hole should cause the note to stop speaking almost instantly and it should speak instantly when opened again. If it does not you should inspect the primary valve.   Water damage can cause the note either to cipher or go dead or even to act sluggishly. Splits in the wood of the chest or leaky gaskets are also a source of problems.   Another minor problem that I had just last week was a valve stem that had pulled loose from the primary pouch. The magnet seemed to work and = pushing the valve stem caused the pipe to play. No air was leaking from the magnet exhaust port. Unfortunately the chest was located under a bellows behind = a pile of other equipment so fixing the "minor" problem took 25 minutes of heavy struggling to fix it..   Every organ has different styles of actions and sometimes you might = discover 2 or 3 different problems causing the same note to go dead! The best = thing is to compare each operation in the chain of events to a note that is working, sooner or later you will find the problem.   Sometimes you might even find you have done something dopey like = forgetting to open the regulating "butterfly" valve under the pipe! It happens even = to the best of us.   Work each problem you find logically and thoroughly. In time you will find that some problems are very common on certain organs and other are common = on others. After 30+ years of experience building organs, most of the time I can figure out a problem and its solution while sitting at the console and listening to the organ in seconds . However sometimes it can take hours to track down a really weird problem.       Remember the only dumb question is the one you don't ask, the only dumb solution is the one that didn't work.   Happy New Year   Nelson Denton R. A. Denton and Son Pipe Organ Builders Hamilton Ontario.   P.S. I love Red Green and he's a hometown boy who made good. But NEVER let him in an organ chamber or use his Duct Tape solutions! I spend most of my time repairing and rebuilding his mentor's work!      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Diode switches? From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cgocable.net> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:55:55 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C192E5.2DD22F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   What you must do is add a diode to every magnet on the organ. The diode = =3D should be of a "IN9000 series 1 amp type" or similar type. You will find = =3D them listed as IN9001, IN90002. . . .IN9005. the last number is the =3D maximum working voltage for the diode, this should not be of much =3D concern in this application. I've seen smaller diodes used but they =3D don't last. The diodes can be purchased from most of the organ supply =3D houses or local electronics supply shops. You should be able to get =3D them for well under $ 0.30 each in bulk.=3D20   Diodes are banded with a stripe on one end. this shows the polarity of =3D the diode. It is very important that you insert them the right way =3D around of they won't work and they might even burn out your contacts!! = =3D The band goes to the positive side of the magnet and the other end to =3D the negative side.   Diodes allow current to flow only one way through them, from the =3D "Banded" side to the other. If you wish them to allow current to flow =3D normally set them so that the "Band" is on the Negative side of the =3D line. For "spark suppression" reverse the polarity!=3D20   Many organs are not polarity sensitive and so you can work them either = =3D way. Some older organs have automatic polarity switchers on them which =3D reverse the polarity of the organ every time the organ is started! This = =3D was intended to prevent the magnets for getting permanently magnetized . = =3D Watch out for that! If you have electronic switching or other diodes of any sort in your =3D organ you must follow suit with the diodes you are adding some =3D companies use Positive keying others Negative. You might even find an =3D organ with dual polarities! Positive keying and Negative stops or vice =3D versa!!!!   The best spot to add diodes is directly across the coils of the magnet =3D but you can add them anyplace in the line between the contacts/relay and = =3D the magnet and they will work every bit as well.. If you have pin =3D junction boards that are easily reached you can add the diodes directly = =3D to the pins on the board with the loose end soldered to a common bare =3D wire. The common wire will be connected to the other side of the line. = =3D Another neater solution is to make a large pin junction board with the = =3D diodes wired to a separate pin for each note and then run cables off to = =3D your main stops junctions.=3D20   In any case make sure of your polarity BEFORE you wire everything in. A = =3D goof up will cause the organ to effectively short circuit which will be = =3D very noisy and possibly damaging.   Most modern electronic switching systems have diode spark suppression =3D built into them as a standard item but some older versions do not.=3D20 Capacitors, MOV's and Zenor diodes are also sometimes used in organs for = =3D spark suppression but the simple Diode will do a much better job at a =3D fraction of the cost.     Happy New Year Nelson Denton R. A. Denton and Son Pipe Organ Builders From: rtadams=3D20 To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Cc: rtadams@itsnet.com=3D20 Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Diode switches?     I have a Moller Artiste from 1948 in my living room. As I play it =3D throws all sorts of EM noise. I'm sure there is a simple application of = =3D some diodes that would eliminate the spark induced RF noise, but I =3D haven't been able to find it on the net yet. Any advice from DIY? I have = =3D seen the ATOS chime switch, but I was looking for something simpler.   Thanks in advance. Richard Adams Moller Artiste (rewired and ventus'd) 1M/P 4R tracker cabinet organ   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C192E5.2DD22F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2712.300" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>What you must do is add a diode to = =3D every magnet on=3D20 the organ. The diode should be of a "IN9000 series 1 amp type" or =3D similar type.=3D20 You will find them listed as IN9001, IN90002. . . .IN9005. the last =3D number is=3D20 the maximum working voltage for the diode, this should not be of much =3D concern in=3D20 this application.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I've seen smaller diodes used but =3D they don't=3D20 last. The diodes can be purchased from most of the organ supply houses =3D or local=3D20 electronics supply shops.&nbsp; You should be able to get them for well = =3D under $=3D20 0.30 each in bulk. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Diodes are banded with a stripe on = one =3D end. this=3D20 shows the polarity of the diode. It is very important that you insert =3D them the=3D20 right way around of they won't work and they might even burn out your=3D20 contacts!!&nbsp; The band goes to the positive side of the magnet and =3D the other=3D20 end to the negative side.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Diodes allow current to flow only one = =3D way through=3D20 them, from the "Banded" side to the other.&nbsp;If you wish them to =3D allow=3D20 current to flow normally set them so that the "Band" is on the Negative = =3D side of=3D20 the line. For "spark suppression" reverse the =3D polarity!&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;Many organs are not polarity = =3D sensitive and so=3D20 you can work them either way. Some older organs have automatic = polarity=3D20 switchers on them which reverse the polarity of the organ every time the = =3D organ=3D20 is started! This was intended to prevent the magnets for getting =3D permanently=3D20 magnetized . Watch out for that!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>If you have electronic switching or = =3D other diodes of=3D20 any sort in your organ you must&nbsp; follow suit with the diodes you =3D are adding=3D20 some companies use Positive keying others Negative. You might even find = =3D an organ=3D20 with dual polarities! Positive keying&nbsp;and Negative stops or vice=3D20 versa!!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>The best spot to add diodes is = directly =3D across=3D20 the&nbsp;coils of the magnet but you can add them anyplace in the line =3D between=3D20 the contacts/relay and the magnet and they will work every bit = &nbsp;as=3D20 well..&nbsp; If you have pin &nbsp;junction boards that are easily&nbsp; = =3D reached=3D20 you can add the diodes directly to the pins on the board with the loose = =3D end=3D20 soldered to a common bare wire. The common wire will be connected to the = =3D other=3D20 side of the line.&nbsp; Another&nbsp; neater solution is to make a large = =3D pin=3D20 junction board with the diodes wired to a separate pin for each note and = =3D then=3D20 run cables off to your main stops junctions.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>In any case make sure of your = polarity =3D BEFORE you=3D20 wire everything in. A goof up will cause the organ to effectively short = =3D circuit=3D20 which will be very noisy and possibly damaging.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Most modern electronic&nbsp;switching = =3D systems have=3D20 diode spark suppression built into them as a standard item but some =3D older=3D20 versions do not.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Capacitors, MOV's and Zenor diodes = are =3D also=3D20 sometimes used in organs for spark suppression but&nbsp; the simple =3D Diode will=3D20 do a much better job at a fraction of the cost.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Happy New Year</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Nelson Denton</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>R. A. Denton and Son</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Pipe Organ Builders</FONT></DIV> <DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=3D3Drtadams@itsnet.com=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:rtadams@itsnet.com">rtadams</A> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org</A> = =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Drtadams@itsnet.com=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:rtadams@itsnet.com">rtadams@itsnet.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 28, 2001 = =3D 5:22=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] =3D Diode=3D20 switches?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>I have a Moller Artiste from 1948 = in =3D my living=3D20 room. As I play it throws all sorts of EM noise. I'm sure there is a =3D simple=3D20 application of some diodes that would eliminate the spark induced RF =3D noise,=3D20 but I haven't been able to find it on the net yet. Any advice from =3D DIY? I have=3D20 seen the ATOS chime switch, but I was looking for something=3D20 simpler.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Thanks in advance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Richard Adams</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Moller Artiste (rewired and=3D20 ventus'd)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>1M/P 4R tracker cabinet=3D20 organ</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0024_01C192E5.2DD22F40--    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Diode switches? From: "Ron Natalie" <ron@sensor.com> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:13:52 -0500     > RFI on relay contacts can usually be minimized\   The RFI is not so much likely to be caused by the contacts (although it may show up as exacerbated arcing there), but by the coils themselves. Wire a diode accross each coil (in reverse direction that the coil is powered obviously).  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] residence organs From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:57:33 EST     In a message dated 12/29/01 4:42:58 PM, gblack@ocslink.com writes:   Well, how stupid could i be ( you are all saying, " >I give up, how stupid)? I had purchased a clip for my celeste and used >that instead of a 61 note board! Back at it again. Thank heavens I = hadn't >done any soldering yet. Have a good time folks. Gary   I can top that a bit, just discovered my little wiring error, was bound to =   happen with the 50 pair cable and the multitude of wires... Each two rank chest has two 50 pair cables, one cable for each rank which has the 25 = pair wrapped in the Blue/White and the 25 pair bundle wrapped in the = orange/white. So right now I have four 25 pair cables coming down from the swell and actually connecting just the two cables for now   My plan was to use the wires in the blue/white bundle to connect to the = key relay magnets #1 thru #30, leaving the rest in that bundle for spares or extra, and then use the wires in the bundle wrapped with the orange/white = to connect to the key relay magnets #31 thru 61 Well gee, somehow in wiring the relays in the basement to the junction = board in the chamber I soldered in all of the wires in the blue/white bundle = from the relays before I started using the orange/white bundle. So... I had to snip those wires on the junction board from #31 to 61 and = put on the correct wires from the orange/white bundle, what a pain and always = a joy taking 2 steps forward and 3 steps backwards.       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: Diode switches? From: "Jon Fick" <jon@VermontFicks.org> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 21:54:06 -0500   I read with interest the suggestion that one can place "two small diodes end-to-end across the [relay] contact. The diodes should be positioned with the positive or negative polarity sides connected together. This blocks = the movement of DC across the diodes but causes any inductively induced = voltages to be suppressed through the diodes."   I've never seen this as a method for minimizing arcing that causes RFI. = It doesn't mean it can't be done, but if the two diodes are in series (the = only possibility because parallel diodes in opposite direction would = essentially close the relay contact) then the one will be forward biased the other = other diode reverse biased. If the breakdown voltage of the back-biased diode = is high enough, it will never conduct, therefore never shunting any current = and the relay contact will arc as though the diodes weren't there.   For DC, a single diode in the reverse direction will suffice. For AC, diodes won't work because they will conduct half cycles. Correctly-valued capacitors are the answer.   But, putting diodes across relay or switch contacts really doesn't = minimize RFI as well as putting diodes across current generating devices: coils. Better to put the diode across the coil and kill the spike where it's generated, rather than put it across a contact and have the resulting short-circuit current (during the spike) generate electromagnetic waves along your length of cable, spraying into adjacent victims (like PA = systems, etc.)   (I may not have understood the original post, but I did, these are my experiences.)   Jon Fick Westford, Vermont