DIYAPASON-L Digest #481 - Thursday, January 3, 2002
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: DIYAPASON-L Digest #461 - 12/14/01
  by "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: DIYAPASON-L Digest #461 - 12/14/01
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: cementing lead
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  2002: Year of the Organ
  by <DBnMOPS@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead
  by "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net>
Re: cementing lead and similar alternatives to re-voicing wood pipes
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead and similar alternatives to re
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: cementing lead
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Sound file uploaded
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: DIYAPASON-L Digest #461 - 12/14/01 From: "Henry Paff" <paffh@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:05:16 -0800 (PST)   I have successfully contact cemented pieces of lead to wood pipes to lower the cutup. I purchases a sheet of lead from a commercial roofing company that has yielded plenty of material for a set of pipes.   Lou     --- Jess4203@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/14/01 9:30:05 PM Pacific > Standard Time, %Randall writes: > > > I can really say that you cannot learn surgery nor > the fine art of voicing > > from a book or a video tape! > > > Hi listers: > > Believe it or not, I have several pipes which didn't > speak at all when I got > them and I have bent ears or opened windways or > moved bent lips to get them > to speak, which they do now with alacrity. I > apologize if I have > transgressed some unwritten rule by TOUCHING the > pipes, but it was pretty > obvious what was wrong and the TOUCHING I did was > pretty reversible and did > actually result in an improvement and aforesaid > pipes do now actually speak. > Being a consenting adult and aware of the risks > involved I thought it was OK > to TOUCH the pipes, but if such is not the case, > please inform me before I > am arrested. . . > > I don't plan to go beyond my expertise level in > voicing, but I am interested > in deciding what to do with my arched mouth, high > cutup Bourdons, among other > things and I had hoped that the Monette book/books > might help me figure out > what to do. It seems to me that someone on this > list (?) lowered cutup on > such as these with metal screwed to the lips. Aside > from the caveat "don't > touch", does anybody have any experience with these > books? > > Thanks for the warning, Randall, I will try to use > appropriate cautions. > > Regards, > Roy Kersey > >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: DIYAPASON-L Digest #461 - 12/14/01 From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:11:29 +1300   Yes, this can work very well, and the flexible lead gives you the ability = to move the upper lip forward or back to the right place. It's a good one. Ross -----Original Message----- From: Henry Paff <paffh@yahoo.com> To: Residence Organ List <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Date: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: DIYAPASON-L Digest #461 - 12/14/01     >I have successfully contact cemented pieces of lead to >wood pipes to lower the cutup. I purchases a sheet of >lead from a commercial roofing company that has >yielded plenty of material for a set of pipes. > >Lou > > >--- Jess4203@aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 12/14/01 9:30:05 PM Pacific >> Standard Time, %Randall writes: >> >> > I can really say that you cannot learn surgery nor >> the fine art of voicing >> > from a book or a video tape! >> > >> Hi listers: >> >> Believe it or not, I have several pipes which didn't >> speak at all when I got >> them and I have bent ears or opened windways or >> moved bent lips to get them >> to speak, which they do now with alacrity. I >> apologize if I have >> transgressed some unwritten rule by TOUCHING the >> pipes, but it was pretty >> obvious what was wrong and the TOUCHING I did was >> pretty reversible and did >> actually result in an improvement and aforesaid >> pipes do now actually speak. >> Being a consenting adult and aware of the risks >> involved I thought it was OK >> to TOUCH the pipes, but if such is not the case, >> please inform me before I >> am arrested. . . >> >> I don't plan to go beyond my expertise level in >> voicing, but I am interested >> in deciding what to do with my arched mouth, high >> cutup Bourdons, among other >> things and I had hoped that the Monette book/books >> might help me figure out >> what to do. It seems to me that someone on this >> list (?) lowered cutup on >> such as these with metal screwed to the lips. Aside >> from the caveat "don't >> touch", does anybody have any experience with these >> books? >> >> Thanks for the warning, Randall, I will try to use >> appropriate cautions. >> >> Regards, >> Roy Kersey >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: cementing lead From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:27:35 EST     >Yes, this can work very well, and the flexible lead gives you the ability >to move the upper lip forward or back to the right place. It's a good = one.   >-----Original Message-----   >>I have successfully contact cemented pieces of lead to >>wood pipes to lower the cutup. I purchases a sheet of >>lead from a commercial roofing company that has   Sorry if I misunderstand, but somehow this stop-gap "repair" method?, = where appearances or quality of workmanship and pride should likely count seems almost like repairing a broken window on your brand new car by using duct tape and poly plastic roll sheeting, and feeling it's fixed instead of = doing it right.   Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] 2002: Year of the Organ From: <DBnMOPS@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:23:30 EST     --part1_134.7257b34.2965d172_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 1/1/2002 3:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnh@haskey.net writes:     > In some other groups there is a periodic roll-call to recap what folks = are > up to: here's mine, I invite others to respond as well! > >   OK, John, here goes--I haven't posted anything for a while. Doug Eyman = here, in Lancaster, PA. My latest project is a 1975 Zimmer 2/15, of which I got = all the chassis, blower, etc., and 9 of the 15 ranks. The other 6 ranks stayed = at the Church to join with parts of a second organ and some new ranks to make = a whole new organ for two Churches that merged. I'm setting up the Zimmer in =   the room above my garage, and have 8 of the 9 original ranks playing, and = I'm working on substitutes for the missing ranks. 3 of those are starting to play, but need much regulating to ever be suitable. I hope to have heat in =   that room by next year. This project had to go on "hold" when the weather turned cold a few weeks ago. My old, original project is the 4/28 "Funk and Wagnals" in the basement. Over the last three decades, a 2/4 Hall unit organ has gradually =   grown to a three- and now four-manual console, and an average = rank-per-year, to the present 28. Alas, it has not gotten the TLC and tuning it should = have since the arrival of the Zimmer, a little over a year ago. This always has = been just a "fun" organ, made up of ranks and small chests from several instruments that I've salvaged over the years. I still hope to add a few = more ranks, but space is a huge problem. A note to those who were discussing magnet-failures on the List: In = 30 years of installing and playing used chests/magnets, I have had only ONE magnet fail in use, and only one or two that required more than just = removal of dirt or spider webs from the port when I originally installed them! Anyone else care to report on projects? Doug   --part1_134.7257b34.2965d172_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 1/1/2002 3:11:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, johnh@haskey.net writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In some other = groups there is a periodic roll-call to recap what folks are<BR> up to:&nbsp; here's mine, I invite others to respond as well!<BR> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> OK, John, here goes--I haven't posted anything for a while. Doug Eyman = here, in Lancaster, PA. My latest project is a 1975 Zimmer 2/15, of which = I got all the chassis, blower, etc., and 9 of the 15 ranks. The other 6 = ranks stayed at the Church to join with parts of a second organ and some = new ranks to make a whole new organ for two Churches that merged. I'm = setting up the Zimmer in the room above my garage, and have 8 of the 9 = original ranks playing, and I'm working on substitutes for the missing = ranks. 3 of those are starting to play, but need much regulating to ever = be suitable. I hope to have heat in that room by next year. This project = had to go on "hold" when the weather turned cold a few weeks ago.&nbsp; = <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My old, original project is the 4/28 = "Funk and Wagnals" in the basement. Over the last three decades, a 2/4 = Hall unit organ has gradually grown to a three- and now four-manual = console, and an average rank-per-year, to the present 28. Alas, it has not = gotten the TLC and tuning it should have since the arrival of the Zimmer, = a little over a year ago. This always has&nbsp; been just a "fun" organ, = made up of ranks and small chests from several instruments that I've = salvaged over the years. I still hope to add a few more ranks, but space = is a huge problem. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A note to those who were discussing = magnet-failures on the List: In 30 years of installing and playing used = chests/magnets, I have had only ONE magnet fail in use, and only one or two that = required more than just removal of dirt or spider webs from the port when = I originally installed them!&nbsp; <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyone else care to report on = projects?<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Doug</FONT></HTML>   --part1_134.7257b34.2965d172_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:54:33 -0600   Mpmollerorgan@aol.com wrote: >=20 > >Yes, this can work very well, and the flexible lead gives=20 > >you the ability to move the upper lip forward or back to=20 > >the right place. It's a good one. >=20 > >-----Original Message----- >=20 > >>I have successfully contact cemented pieces of lead to > >>wood pipes to lower the cutup. I purchases a sheet of > >>lead from a commercial roofing company that has >=20 > Sorry if I misunderstand, but somehow this stop-gap "repair"=20 > method?, where appearances or quality of workmanship and=20 > pride should likely count seems almost like repairing a=20 > broken window on your brand new car by using duct tape and=20 > poly plastic roll sheeting, and feeling it's fixed instead=20 > of doing it right. =20 Appearance and pride have a price. Consider the acquisition=20 cost of a "newish" set of pipes on lower wind pressure=20 versus a large supply of readily available pipe out of=20 older organs. The old higher pressure pipes can be bought=20 for a relatively low price. =20 Most of these "older" pipes will be placed in the back=20 of the pipe chamber. What you are buying is a sound;=20 the appearance doesn't contribute to the sound of the=20 organ. Admittedly, it might make us feel good to see=20 pretty pipes, but that doesn't help the organ. =20 It also could make use of a set of old pipes from high=20 pressure days (approximately 5 to 9 inches of wind)=20 usable again on lower wind pressure. I have such a set=20 of pipes built by M=F6ller about 80 years ago. No way=20 these pipes would play on 3 inches of wind; at least=20 play AND sound right. The lead applique could allow you=20 to lower the lip, position it properly for that particular=20 wind sheet, and enjoy the real sound of pipes for another=20 generation for not a lot of money. =20 Just an idea "worth" considering. =20 F. Richard Burt dorian.organs@verizon.net =20 =20 =2E  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 06:50:19 +1300   It might seem stopgap, but there are precious few ways of doing anything = to a wooden pipe once it's made and voiced. I'd rather do this and get a good-sounding result, than not do it and find the rank useless. Ross -----Original Message----- From: Mpmollerorgan@aol.com <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Date: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:27 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead     > >>Yes, this can work very well, and the flexible lead gives you the = ability >>to move the upper lip forward or back to the right place. It's a good = one. > >>-----Original Message----- > >>>I have successfully contact cemented pieces of lead to >>>wood pipes to lower the cutup. I purchases a sheet of >>>lead from a commercial roofing company that has > >Sorry if I misunderstand, but somehow this stop-gap "repair" method?, where >appearances or quality of workmanship and pride should likely count seems >almost like repairing a broken window on your brand new car by using duct >tape and poly plastic roll sheeting, and feeling it's fixed instead of doing >it right. > >Randall >http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/ > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:59:52 EST     In a message dated 1/3/02 9:52:41 AM, dorian.organs@verizon.net writes:   >Appearance and pride have a price. Consider the acquisition=20 >cost of a "newish" set of pipes on lower wind pressure=20 >versus a large supply of readily available pipe out of=20 >older organs. The old higher pressure pipes can be bought=20 >for a relatively low price.   About $2500 from organ supply, or one can make their own wood pipes too, I'v= e=20 made several ranks of wood pipes and it takes times and all but is not extremely difficult.     >Most of these "older" pipes will be placed in the back=20 >of the pipe chamber. What you are buying is a sound;=20 >the appearance doesn't contribute to the sound of the=20 >organ. Admittedly, it might make us feel good to see=20 >pretty pipes, but that doesn't help the organ.   True, it's just that well first, I would personally be embarassed to look at= =20 them or to show them to people, especially anyone who knows organs, and if=20 you have people over they will be shown :) Also, not always but a lot of=20 times people who take shortcuts on one thing tend to take shortcuts on othe= r=20 things, it's human nature. I've seen stoppers "repaired" by stuffing the=20 stopper in torn tee shirts and jamming it into the pipe, leaks "repaired" b= y=20 gobbing mounds of RED silicone RTV sealant all over the place, red magic=20 marker used on pipes, racking and and so on.   >It also could make use of a set of old pipes from high=20 >pressure days (approximately 5 to 9 inches of wind)=20 >usable again on lower wind pressure. I have such a set=20 >of pipes built by M=F6ller about 80 years ago. No way=20 >these pipes would play on 3 inches of wind; at least=20 >play AND sound right. The lead applique could allow you=20 >to lower the lip, position it properly for that particular=20 >wind sheet, and enjoy the real sound of pipes for another=20 >generation for not a lot of money.   Why use LEAD on a wood pipe in the first place? our voicer before he came=20 here worked for another builder where he had to lower cutups, but when they=20 did it they used similar wood carefully cut to the width and height of the=20 upper lip plus what ever extra needed to come down below the original lip,=20 and they spent a little effort sanding the wood to fit nicely and blending i= t=20 in. When done and perhaps given some natural watco to color it to a similar=20 color of the old shellac, it looked good and worked well. It woudn't have=20 looked like an afterthought.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead From: "F. Richard Burt" <dorian.organs@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:22:23 -0600   Mpmollerorgan@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/3/02 9:52:41 AM, > dorian.organs@verizon.net writes: > > >Appearance and pride have a price. Consider the > >acquisition cost of a "newish" set of pipes on lower > >wind pressure versus a large supply of readily > >available pipe out of older organs. The old higher > >pressure pipes can be bought for a relatively low price. > > About $2500 from organ supply, or one can make their > own wood pipes too, I've made several ranks of wood pipes > and it takes times and all but is not extremely difficult. I missed something is the context, Randall. I assumed we were talking about organs for use in private homes, where cost containment was an important part of the project. I approach stuff that I do for myself on a much more parctical basis than when I am building for a church client. When at home, my place is my castle, regardless of what it looks like. If the stuff on which I work gets the desired results, then I am the sole judge of what it's worth to me. You might come to my home and view/listen to "my work of art" and chuckle at the "shortcuts" I took. That is not the issue, and you would not embarrass me by comenting on those cost-saving moves that I made. To carry the illustration a step further, I have an organ case in my workshop that is practical and provides the desired effect that I desire. However, when I look at it with an artistic eye, I conclude that it is "ugly." In the shop, ugliness is relative. In a church, ugliness would be a real no-no. My woodworking skills would be much more attentive to the details of a case for installation in a church. The result is obvious. Case cost that looks pretty is much greater than a funcitonal case for shop use where I am indifferent to how it looks.   I've no argument with you on the stand you take. In fact, everything ought to look pretty if at all possible. Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt ..  
(back) Subject: Re: cementing lead and similar alternatives to re-voicing wood pipes From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 18:46:37 -0600     On Date: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:27 AM someone wrote regarding cementing lead:   > Yes, this can work very well, and the flexible lead gives you > the ability to move the upper lip forward or back to the right > place. It's a good one.   Then Randall (I THINK!) replied:   > Sorry if I misunderstand, but somehow this stop-gap "repair" > method?, where appearances or quality of workmanship and pride should > likely count seems almost like repairing a broken window on your brand > new car by using duct tape and poly plastic roll sheeting, and > feeling it's fixed instead of doing it right.   Not necessarily.   We have adopted a similar method of lowering cut-ups, but we use Spotted Metal sheets for lowering cut-ups. What we do is "scribe" the new cut-up and then cut the Spotted Metal "Plates", so they cover the entire area of the upper lip of the wood pipe, including the additional amount the cut-up is being reduced by. We then stamp the note name in the center of the Spotted metal piece before gluing it on (don't do it afterwards or you will risk splitting the front of the pipe from the force of the hammer blow on the steel stamp!).   We then highly polish the spotted metal after the adhesive we use sets up. To us, this gives a very professional-looking appearance, and is certainly a good balance between the cost of completely replacing the front (which otherwise becomes necessary in the trebles) and achiveing the sound wanted.   One caveat: remember that you'll have to likely close down the toe of the pipe, if it was voiced to speak with the higher cut-up -all things being equal!   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead and similar alternatives to re-voicing wood pipes From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:25:12 EST   >arpschneider@starband.net >We have adopted a similar method of lowering cut-ups, but we use Spotted >Metal sheets for lowering cut-ups. What we do is "scribe" the new   Richard, have you ever seen or heard of wood pipes cut the way metal pipes =   are to do this? I was curious how that might work. I bring it up because I have had to = mitre new and old wood pipes of a variety of sizes and it's pretty simple to cut =   the larger pipes on a bandsaw, smaller pipes on a table saw at the appropriate angle, flip the upper around, clean up and square the cut = edges, biskit and glue the two pieces together. What about cutting through the pipe above the languid somewhere, cutting =   1/4" or whatever is needed from one or the other half, cleaning the cut edges, biskit and glue back together? You would be gluing in 3 places = because the front is open where you cut if you cut right above the languid. If you =   cut higher up then there would be a glue line across the two edges in the front either side of the mouth.   Seems to me if you make a good clean cut with a new, sharp blade to avoid fuzzing the cut edge, when reglued there should only be a fine hairline = that can be seen and if you cut just above the languid you would only have a = glue line you could see on the two sides and back, the back you probably won't = see and the side view would likely be blocked by adjacent pipes. The effect would be the pipes would retain their original front = appearance, the cutup would be lowered and the whole thing would look much neater = etc. I really wouldn't see that taking a lot of time though the cut would need = to be clean and square. Comments?       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: cementing lead From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:57:22 -0500       Ross Wards wrote:   > It might seem stopgap, but there are precious few ways of doing anything = to > a wooden pipe once it's made and voiced. I'd rather do this and get a > good-sounding result, than not do it and find the rank useless. > Ross   Hi Ross, I admit to very limited knowledge of the particulars of re-using = wooden pipes, but my recent visit to a noted organ builder's shop found them = assembling a treble extension for a rank of stopped flutes from a general supply of = misc. pipes they had in stock. As they were were being checked for appropriate voicing, one pipe was found to be of too large a scale. The expert = woodworker on staff simply cut off the back of the pipe at the glue joint, trimmed the necessary amount off the pipe body, and then reattached the back with = biscuits and glue. You could not tell that the pipe had ever been altered when he = was done. The extenuation octave was to be added to a rank of existing pipes = donated from the previous organ, and would serve the church again even though the instrument was otherwise new. I was told it is not at all uncommon to = re-use old wooden pipes in such a manner to control overall costs, provided they met = the tonal criteria.   Cheers Mike    
(back) Subject: Sound file uploaded From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:13:00 EST   Here's a short real audio clip I made this evening with just 40 pipes = from F#7 to D#40 on the Violin Diapason working, with the sw-sw 4' on ;   http://hometown.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/gladdness.rm   The manual keys and their contacts need adjustment since I replaced the = felt hammer rail felt, balance rail disks and the like.     Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/