DIYAPASON-L Digest #489 - Friday, January 11, 2002
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Orgoblo amperage/heaters
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Orgoblo amperage/heaters
  by "Grandstaff, Larry P." <grandslp@smxcorp.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Orgoblo amperage/heaters
  by <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Orgoblo amperage/heaters
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Orgoblo amperage/heaters
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Cleaning Pipes
  by "Paul Soulek" <pipeorganpaul@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:31:10 -0500   At 08:38 PM 1/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:   >In a message dated 1/10/02 1:38:58 PM, ess4@psu.edu writes: > > >At 01:49 PM 1/10/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >>So to clarify for all, the motor registered 11-1/4 amps per wire on = idle, > >for > >>a total draw of > >>22-1/2 amps and 28 amps total draw on full load through the electric > >meter. > >>And @ .07 a KWH I figured will cost $0.35 + - an hour to operate the = organ. > >>Looks like I'm in good shape, need to derate the breakers which are = 30 > > > >One does not double the current, as it flows in one wire and out the = other. > >Hi Eric, >Let me see if I have this right and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! > >I understand where that works on 110 volts, with one hot, one ground, and = the >current in one out the other... but my motor which is 110/220 is wired to >220, with (2) 110volt hot leads plus a neutral and a bare copper frame = ground. >I used a snap on meter which the thing said snap it over one wire only, I >would assume then the reading is amps for that one wire which should be = the >same as the other hot wire if balanced and not having a 110volt load = added to >one of the wires. So if I read motor plates correctly it doesn't matter = if >it's wired to 110 or 220 it uses the same total amps but on 220 the amps = are >divided over two wires whcih can allow the use of smaller gauge wire = which >cuts costs a little too.   For 115 volts the windings in the motor are paralleled, so the current doubles. For 230V they are connected in series so the current is half that =   of 115 volts but the voltage twice. I have never seen a motor use a = neutral wire. The current should just flow in one hot wire and out the other. I would not use the term "total amps" in this case.     > A typical plate Iv'e seen might read; > >110/220 volts >30/15 amps > >With the 30 amps on one wire @110v or 15 amps on each of two wires for = 220v >still uses 30 total amps at the meter for which you pay. > >John Panning at work measured the LA cathedral's 10 HP orgoblow, it is 3 >phase and said he started it up and the reading was 125 amps and then = dropped >down to about 15 amps at idle. I am assuming one would multiply THAT by = the 3 >hot wires to come up with a draw of about 45 amps total. If it was just = 15 >amps I would say something is wrong because a small electric household = space >heater will use that much! >I am assuming my post wasn't clear enough and you were thinking 110 volts = one >wire in and a ground.   No. For 3 phase its again different. There are 3 hot legs and they are 120 =   deg. out of phase of each other. This is what gives the motor its = rotation. It's kind of like three 208V or 230V lines but not quite as they are not = in phase with each other. Again one does not add the current of all legs. If the motor is drawing say 15A on one leg it is assumed to be drawing = approx. the same on the other two. There is a formula to calculate KVA on 3 phase. =   You can't just multiply the current of each leg by the voltage.     > >capacitor does quite a bit better. The only way to really check this is > > > >with a watt meter. > > > >Eric > >Interesting! >Well what I actually did to arrive at the cost per hour was not using the >watt method or multitester and math which, all things considered doesn't = mean >a lot, what DOES is what the electric meter outside on the wall reads = when >the guy from the power company stops by to write down it's readings! > > I ran the blower a specified amount of time by the clock and compared = the >electric meter reading before and after. The blower and the rectifier >together used 5 KW's in one hour's time. Since I pay 7 cents a KWH I came = up >with about 35 cents per hour + - as a minimum, from THAT reading. >It would rise slightly from that depending on how many stops and what was >being played, which would of course translate to increasing the load. I = came >up with 14 amp reading on the one hot wire at full load up from 11-1/4 at >idle, so the actual cost per hour averaged out might be closer to 40 to 45 >cents assuming all of the organ working and use of couplers and playing >pieces that use big chords and low notes.   This should be an accurate way to measure this. But I can't believe that your motor and rectifier is actually drawing 5KW even with the motor fully =   loaded. A 2 HP motor won't draw more than about 2600W or 2.6 KW at full load, and MUCH less lightly or not loaded. And the organ rectifier maybe ..5KW if fully loaded and MUCH less idling. One horsepower is equal to = 746 watts. As most motors are maybe 60-70% efficient that's where the increase =   comes in. Are you sure that the hot water heater or other wasn't running at the = time? Or that the meter was read right, tenths dials etc?   As the motor is doing almost no work idling, along with the rectifier, = then if 5KW were being used, it would have to be dissipated in the form of heat =   which surely would mean a smoking motor.   Anyway, I'm sorry I started this confusion, but there is more involved = than meets the eye.   Hope all are enjoying their organ projects whatever the power that may be = used!   Eric             >Randall >http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/ > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters From: "Grandstaff, Larry P." <grandslp@smxcorp.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:41:51 -0500   Good morning everyone,   My company did a lot of testing of power meters, the same one that is on = the outside of your house. The meter calculates power useage on the highest line at that point in time. In other words, if you are drawing 12 amps on one side of the 220 and 6 amps on the other, the power useage is = calculated as 12 x 220.   So, if the only power you are drawing from the power company is your motor and the motor is drawing 30 amps @ 110V the power calculated is 30 x 220. If the motor is connected to draw 15 amps @ 220, the power calculated is = 15 x 220. You are paying double for the motor that is running on the 110V circuit.   This is not an idea world, so you must know all the other equipment and lights that are connected on each side to get the total calcutation. But = I connected all my larger shop tools across the 220V and balanced my circuit breaker box in the house so that the draw on both sides was about the same during normal living conditions. The work paid off, my power bill went = from a little over $100 to a little over $80. Gave me an extra $20 a month for organ parts.   Regards, Larry Grandstaff   > -----Original Message----- > From: jch [mailto:opus1100@catoe.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:41 PM > To: Residence Organ List > Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters > > > At 08:38 PM 1/10/02 -0500, you wrote: > >With the 30 amps on one wire @110v or 15 amps on each of > two wires for 220v > >still uses 30 total amps at the meter for which you pay.  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters From: <Mpmollerorgan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:36:27 EST     In a message dated 1/11/02 11:31:56 AM, ess4@psu.edu writes:   > >For 115 volts the windings in the motor are paralleled, so the current >doubes. For 230V they are connected in series so the current is half that >of 15 volts but the voltage twice. I have never seen a motor use a = neutral >wire The current should just flow in one hot wire and out the other. I >woud not use the term "total amps" in this case.   Ok I see. This motor however has 3 lead wires, I also ran a copper ground = to the case.   >No. For 3 phase its again different. There are 3 hot legs and they are >120 >deg. out of phase of each other. This is what gives the motor its = rotation. >It's kind of like three 208V or 230V lines but not quite as they are not >in >phase with each other. Again one does not add the current of all legs. >If the motor is drawing say 15A on one leg it is assumed to be drawing approx. >the same on the other two. There is a formula to calculate KVA on 3 = phase. >You can't just multiply the current of each leg by the voltage.   I see what you are saying Eric, guess it didn't make sense last night when = I was thinking 15 amps to run that huge 10HP blower and my portable 1500 watt electric space heater using about 12 amps, just seems the blower = is doing a heck of a lot more work and that 15x3 legs=3D45 amps would be more = what I would expect that 10 HP motor to use!   >This should be an accurate way to measure this. But I can't believe that >your motor and rectifier is actually drawing 5KW even with the motor = fully >loaded. A 2 HP motor won't draw more than about 2600W or 2.6 KW at full >load, and MUCH less lightly or not loaded. And the organ rectifier maybe   >Are you sure that the hot water heater or other wasn't running at the = time? >Or that the meter was read right, tenths dials etc?   I may not have been clear enough, by 5KW I meant TOTAL for one hour not = the draw, the DRAW was by the test meter 11-1/4 amps plus the rectifier on a seperate circuit was about 4 amps. My electric meter has actual numbers like an odometer, not dials which can = be confusing to those who don't know how to read em. My water heater is gas, gas stove, gas heat, the only appliances running during the test was the computer, monitor off and if the refrigerator = kicked in during that time (small, single door)     >As the motor is doing almost no work idling, along with the rectifier, >then >if 5KW were being used, it would have to be dissipated in the form of = heat >which surely would mean a smoking motor.   Sure would! But actually I have run the motor for a couple of hours at a stretch a couple of times now while working on the organ, tuning it and playing, and with some leaks too, and the motor case gets barely above = body temperature. The blower room also was 60 degrees and being in the basement = it doesnt get much above 70 even in the summer. So it looks like so far it = runs nice and cool.   So essentially the motor is using 11-1/4 amps at idle, and unless for some =   reason the other hot wire was say, 13 amps, then the unit uses 11-1/4 amps =   thru the breaker box at idle?       >Anyway, I'm sorry I started this confusion, but there is more involved >than >meets the eye. > >Hope all are enjoying their organ projects whatever the power that may >be used! > >Eric       Randall http://members.aol.com/mpmollerorgan/  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:08 -0600   At 08:41 AM 1/11/02 -0500, you wrote: >At 08:38 PM 1/10/02 -0500, you wrote: > > >With the 30 amps on one wire @110v or 15 amps on each of > > two wires for 220v > > >still uses 30 total amps at the meter for which you pay.   This was not my original quote....it was a quote from a previous message....thank you Larry for explaining it more clearly....my blower is connected for 220v and I'm glad to know that other than reducing the load =   through the wiring, it is also saving me money...for the person who made the original statement...15amps flowing in a 220v circuit is the same 15amps in each leg...it is NOT additive. The Power is the same....but reading Larry's description of how electric meters operate it appears that the power company has gotcha if you wire = the blower for 110 operation...even if the actual power is the same..   jch      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Orgoblo amperage/heaters From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:30:20 -0500   At 01:36 PM 1/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:   >I may not have been clear enough, by 5KW I meant TOTAL for one hour not = the >draw, the DRAW was by the test meter 11-1/4 amps plus the rectifier on a >seperate circuit was about 4 amps. >My electric meter has actual numbers like an odometer, not dials which = can be >confusing to those who don't know how to read em. >My water heater is gas, gas stove, gas heat, the only appliances running >during the test was the computer, monitor off and if the refrigerator = kicked >in during that time (small, single door)   The meter measures KW per hour. This still means that you used 5KW for one =   hour drawing that amount continuously, or more at one point and less at another averaging it out to 5KW. This power had to either turn into heat = or some other form of energy if the meter is truly measuring the energy (watts) used. After what Larry mentioned though they may be treating it differently as it's an inductive load.       > >As the motor is doing almost no work idling, along with the rectifier, > >then > >if 5KW were being used, it would have to be dissipated in the form of = heat > >which surely would mean a smoking motor. > >Sure would! But actually I have run the motor for a couple of hours at a >stretch a couple of times now while working on the organ, tuning it and >playing, and with some leaks too, and the motor case gets barely above = body >temperature. The blower room also was 60 degrees and being in the = basement it >doesnt get much above 70 even in the summer. So it looks like so far it = runs >nice and cool.   My 1HP GE motor on my Spencer hardly gets warm either.   Eric    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Cleaning Pipes From: "Paul Soulek" <pipeorganpaul@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:01:21 -0600   I bought some NEVRDULL and it does work great! Thanks!   Paul     John Vanderlee wrote: > > >Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could use to clean/polish > >some zinc and lead pipes? I just want to make their appearance a little > >better, and don't really know what to use. > > > >Thank you! > >Paul > > "NEVRDULL" from any hardware store. Amazing stuff > > John V > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org   _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com