DIYAPASON-L Digest #532 - Tuesday, March 12, 2002
 
Re: [Residence Organs]  Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "noel" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by <Pipewheezr@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Lieblich Gedeckt action
  by "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com>
Looking for a regulator
  by "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com>
relays and such
  by <Mollerpo@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  relays and such
  by "Christopher Sabatowich" <c.sabatowich@sthedwigchurch.zzn.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "noel" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:48:26 -0500   Organ Supply Industries, Erie, PA has a stock LG action box available.   nj  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Lieblich Gedeckt action From: <Pipewheezr@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:50:29 EST   Hi all I have a Lieblich Gedeckt action that I totally rebuilt, it had = been wet, that I don't think I am using. It came with a regulator that I really =   wanted off of E-Bay. I will see what I have in it and sell it for cost of material and what ever I paid for it. Dennis. PS I bought a Moller console and sold the Klann all in a matter of a two weeks. The Moller needs wind to power the combination action. Does any one know = what pressure it runs at?  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Lieblich Gedeckt action From: "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:20:06 -0600 (CST)       On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 Pipewheezr@aol.com wrote:   > The Moller needs wind to power the combination action. Does any one know = what > pressure it runs at?   I assume that you mean the big pneumatic that pulls the sliders in a tripper action? The lower the pressure the slower the power pneumatic will move. Moller organs usually had Kinetic blowers on them and if they were romantic organs, they probably were voiced on 4.5" to 6" of wind. I would think the console was winded off the static pressure and regulated down with a winker. If you have a winker and some compass springs you can start at a pressure close to the regulated pressure of your pipes and then add more springs to increase the pressure untill you feel your console power pneumatic is responding suitably.   GaryK    
(back) Subject: Looking for a regulator From: "Trailrider" <horseback@shell.core.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:22:48 -0600 (CST)   Hello;   I am seeking a small two or three valve 20" X 30" regulator such as a Barton or Wurlitzer. If anyone on this list has one for sale please email me privately.   Thanks. GaryK          
(back) Subject: relays and such From: <Mollerpo@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:07:09 EST     --part1_9e.2349579b.29bfd60d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Ok pipe organ fans... here's another one. I am challenged with the issue of SS relay component prices. From what I = can tell the 'meat and taters' of the whole thing is a transistor and some resistors that handle the power loads and from there gang switches can do = the rest. Does anyone have any super clear directions about such things? Am I = in the ball park or should I just change sports? Also if anyone is replacing a decent relay with SS technology I have about = 50 dual coil stop tabs hanging around. Thanks, Brian   --part1_9e.2349579b.29bfd60d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#800040" SIZE=3D2 = FACE=3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" LANG=3D"0">Ok pipe organ fans... here's = another one.<BR> I am challenged with the issue of SS relay component prices. From what I = can tell the 'meat and taters' of the whole thing is a transistor and some = resistors that handle the power loads and from there gang switches can do = the rest. Does anyone have any super clear directions about such things? = Am I in the ball park or should I just change sports?<BR> Also if anyone is replacing a decent relay with SS technology I have about = 50 dual coil stop tabs hanging around.<BR> Thanks, Brian</FONT></HTML>   --part1_9e.2349579b.29bfd60d_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] relays and such From: "Christopher Sabatowich" <c.sabatowich@sthedwigchurch.zzn.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:43:28 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0420_01C1CA17.53CF07E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Dear list, Oh, how serendipitous! I'm designing a relay for my home organ. =3D The organ was supposed to be a church organ, but it is so heavliy =3D unified that it would be a genuine theatre organ if it had a tremulo, =3D tibia and a vox humana. The resources of my organ most nearly and =3D ironically (because the console is a used Wicks console and a lot of the = =3D magnets are used Wicks DE) match the resources of the American Classic =3D IV (http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm) by Wicks. =3D20 I am planning to use the SN74LS08 QUAD 2-INPUT AND gate and the =3D MJE3055T power transistor as the guts of the relay. Two SN7408 series =3D chips and one power transistor are assigned to each pipe. The power =3D transistor is mounted inside the windchest, powered by bus bars inside =3D the windchest, and uses the metal supports of the DE magnets for its =3D heatsink. Each gate allows a stop and a key when both are on to force =3D the output high, which then forces the transistor to conduct, which then = =3D allows the magnet to energize and the valve to open. Turning the stop =3D off or releasing the key causes the output of the logic gate to go to =3D 0V, which causes the transistor to stop conducting and permits the valve = =3D to close. The outputs refering to a particular pipe are simply soldered = =3D together into one 24AWG wire since an OR gate is an unnecessary =3D complication which can easily be handled by wiring the sources in =3D parallel. This arrangement allows for a heavily unified windchest of 61 = =3D notes to be controlled by 63 wires: 61 signal, 1 ground, 1 positve =3D supply. Eight gates per note on average may seem excessive, but it is a =3D small number considering that the console is two manuals with pedal. For = =3D example, Bourdon-Gedeckt (97pipes): 16-8-4-2 SW 16-8-4-2 GT 32-16-10 2/3-8-4 PED (the 32' sounds both the 16' and the 10 2/3' for =3D its first octave and sounds the first octaves of the 16' for the =3D balance) For this particular rank, three chips would be needed per pipe! =3D Let's not even bother to calculate the exact number of discrete =3D components needed if you were going to build the relay with diodes and =3D transistors. For the Diapason (85 notes) 8-4 SW 8-4-2 2/3-2 GT 8-4 PED Unison couplers provided to couple SW to GT, SW to PED, and GT to PED. = =3D I think we can agree that any intramanual coupling would be pointless =3D and not add much power considering how unified the organ is already. Two chips are required per pipe. The Labial Saxophone (61 notes) requires only one chip because I plan to = =3D use it only on the manuals at 8' and 4'. I would appreciate seeing any tonal scheme that can make the most of = =3D the resources I plan to put on the organ: 16' Bourdon (12 notes) 8'-4'-2' Gedeckt (73 notes wood, 12 notes metal) 8' Labial Saxophone (61 notes, gamba-like sound) 8'-4'-2' Diapason (85 notes, to be acquired) 8' Oboe (to be acquired) Feel free to fling buckets of cold water in my direction. BTW, I just noticed that the American Classic III-IV organs by Wicks =3D have very similar resources: 16' Rohrgedeckt 97 Pipes 8' Principal 85 Pipes 4' Gemshorn 73 Pipes 8' Fagot 73 Pipes http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm   In any case, I will end up buying in this phase of construction =3D roughly 522 logic gate chips, 243 power transistors, and enough PC board = =3D for all of them. Total cost should be about $200-300 for the relay. If = =3D I were going to build the same relay from transistors etc., I would need = =3D at least three to four times the number of components and five times the = =3D frustration. I chose to use prefabricated logic gates because I know =3D that they will work while drawing little current from the keys. I'm =3D going to be prototyping the system over the weekend. I will report back = =3D shortly.   Sincerely, Christopher Sabatowich ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Mollerpo@aol.com=3D20 To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:07 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] relays and such     Ok pipe organ fans... here's another one. I am challenged with the issue of SS relay component prices. From what = =3D I can tell the 'meat and taters' of the whole thing is a transistor and = =3D some resistors that handle the power loads and from there gang switches = =3D can do the rest. Does anyone have any super clear directions about such = =3D things? Am I in the ball park or should I just change sports? Also if anyone is replacing a decent relay with SS technology I have =3D about 50 dual coil stop tabs hanging around. Thanks, Brian=3D20   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0420_01C1CA17.53CF07E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear list,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, how =3D serendipitous!&nbsp; I'm=3D20 designing a relay for my home organ.&nbsp; The organ was supposed to be = =3D a church=3D20 organ, but it is so heavliy unified that&nbsp;it would be a genuine =3D theatre=3D20 organ if it had a tremulo, tibia and a vox humana.&nbsp; The resources =3D of my=3D20 organ most nearly and ironically (because the console is a used Wicks =3D console=3D20 and a lot of the magnets are used&nbsp;Wicks DE) match the resources =3D of&nbsp;the=3D20 American Classic IV (<A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm">http://www.wicks.com/or= =3D gan/specs/ac1.htm</A>)=3D20 by Wicks.&nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am planning to = use =3D the=3D20 SN74LS08 QUAD 2-INPUT AND gate and the MJE3055T power transistor as the = =3D guts of=3D20 the relay.&nbsp;Two SN7408 series chips and one power transistor are =3D assigned to=3D20 each pipe.&nbsp;&nbsp; The power transistor is mounted inside the =3D windchest,=3D20 powered by bus bars inside the windchest,&nbsp;and uses the metal =3D supports of=3D20 the DE magnets for its heatsink.&nbsp; Each gate allows a stop and a key = =3D when=3D20 both are on to force the output high, which then forces the transistor =3D to=3D20 conduct, which then allows the magnet to energize and the valve to =3D open.&nbsp;=3D20 Turning the stop off or releasing the key causes the output of the logic = =3D gate to=3D20 go to 0V, which causes the transistor to stop conducting and permits the = =3D valve=3D20 to close.&nbsp; The outputs refering to a particular pipe are simply =3D soldered=3D20 together into one 24AWG wire since an OR gate is an unnecessary =3D complication=3D20 which can easily be handled by wiring the sources in parallel.&nbsp; =3D This=3D20 arrangement allows for a heavily unified windchest of 61 notes to be =3D controlled=3D20 by 63 wires: 61 signal, 1 ground, 1 positve supply.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eight gates per = note =3D on=3D20 average&nbsp;may seem excessive, but it is a small number considering =3D that the=3D20 console is two manuals with pedal.&nbsp;For example,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Bourdon-Gedeckt = (97pipes):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>16-8-4-2 SW</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>16-8-4-2 GT</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>32-16-10 2/3-8-4 PED (the 32' sounds = =3D both the 16'=3D20 and the 10 2/3' for its first octave and sounds the first octaves of the = =3D 16' for=3D20 the balance)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For this = particular =3D rank, three=3D20 chips would be needed per pipe!&nbsp; Let's not even bother to calculate = =3D the=3D20 exact number of discrete components needed if you were going to build =3D the relay=3D20 with diodes and transistors.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>For the Diapason (85 =3D notes)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8-4 SW</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8-4-2 2/3-2&nbsp;GT</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8-4 PED</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Unison couplers provided to couple SW = =3D to GT, SW to=3D20 PED, and GT to PED.&nbsp; I think we can agree that any intramanual =3D coupling=3D20 would be pointless and not add much power considering how unified the =3D organ is=3D20 already.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Two chips are =3D required per=3D20 pipe.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>The Labial Saxophone (61 notes) =3D requires only one=3D20 chip because I plan to use it only on the manuals at 8' and =3D 4'.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I would appreciate = =3D seeing any=3D20 tonal scheme that can make the most of the resources I plan to put on =3D the=3D20 organ:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>16' Bourdon (12 notes)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8'-4'-2' Gedeckt (73 notes wood, 12 = =3D notes=3D20 metal)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8' Labial Saxophone (61 notes, =3D gamba-like=3D20 sound)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8'-4'-2' Diapason (85 notes, to = be=3D20 acquired)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>8' Oboe (to be acquired)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Feel free to fling = =3D buckets of=3D20 cold water in my direction.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>BTW, I just noticed that the American = =3D Classic=3D20 III-IV&nbsp;organs by Wicks have&nbsp;very =3D similar&nbsp;resources:</FONT><FONT=3D20 size=3D3D2><STRONG><BR></STRONG>16' Rohrgedeckt 97 Pipes<BR>8' Principal = =3D 85=3D20 Pipes<BR>4' Gemshorn 73 Pipes<BR>8' Fagot 73 Pipes</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://www.wicks.com/organ/specs/ac1.htm">http://www.wicks.com/or= =3D gan/specs/ac1.htm</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In any case, I = will =3D end up=3D20 buying in this phase of construction roughly 522 logic gate chips, 243 =3D power=3D20 transistors, and enough PC board for all of them.&nbsp; Total cost =3D should be=3D20 about $200-300 for the relay.&nbsp; If&nbsp;I were going to build the =3D same relay=3D20 from transistors etc., I would&nbsp;need at least three to four times =3D the number=3D20 of components and five times the frustration.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial=3D20 size=3D3D2>I chose to use prefabricated logic gates because I know that = =3D they will=3D20 work&nbsp;while drawing little current from the keys.&nbsp; I'm going to = =3D be=3D20 prototyping the system over the weekend.&nbsp; I will report back=3D20 shortly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Christopher Sabatowich</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3DMollerpo@aol.com =3D href=3D3D"mailto:Mollerpo@aol.com">Mollerpo@aol.com</A>=3D20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org">DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org</A> = =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 12, 2002 = =3D 5:07=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] =3D relays and=3D20 such</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT><FONT face=3D3DArial =3D size=3D3D2></FONT><FONT=3D20 face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT><BR></DIV><FONT =3D face=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D3D0=3D20 face=3D3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" color=3D3D#800040 size=3D3D2>Ok pipe = organ =3D fans... here's=3D20 another one.<BR>I am challenged with the issue of SS relay component =3D prices.=3D20 From what I can tell the 'meat and taters' of the whole thing is a =3D transistor=3D20 and some resistors that handle the power loads and from there gang =3D switches=3D20 can do the rest. Does anyone have any super clear directions about =3D such=3D20 things? Am I in the ball park or should I just change sports?<BR>Also = =3D if=3D20 anyone is replacing a decent relay with SS technology I have about 50 = =3D dual=3D20 coil stop tabs hanging around.<BR>Thanks, Brian</FONT>=3D20 </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0420_01C1CA17.53CF07E0--