DIYAPASON-L Digest #683 - Thursday, November 14, 2002
 
Organ Building 101 & Diodes and Direct Electric Magnets
  by <TheGluePot@aol.com>
Fan Puller
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Fan Puller
  by "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net>
Is Wiring Clockwise or Counterclockwise?
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Fan Puller
  by "Bill  Hewitson  -  wurlic1" <wurlic1@lara.on.ca>
Organ Wiring Primer
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Fan Puller
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Fan Puller
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: Organ Wiring Primer
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Fan Puller
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Fan Puller-use KROIL
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: Organ Building 101 & Diodes and Direct Electric Magnets From: <TheGluePot@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 03:39:26 EST   The best place to put the diodes is on the magnets so that the back EMF = never gets further than the magnet itself. The 1 Ampere diodes are so cheap = that the cost is inconsequential against contacts or driver transistors/ICs. Large discussions on various organ lists have gone into what PIV (peak inverse voltage) to use but the lowly 50 PIVs and the 400 PIVs are almost = the same price. While the magnet is actuated the applied voltage is in the reverse bias mode so the most these have to face is normally 18 Volts and = any PIV diode should theoretically work without failing. That being said, I = like the 400 PIV units because the junction is a bit more robust for heat dissipation which should not even be an issue with this application. Buy = the diodes in bulk from Electronics Goldmine on the Internet or some other = deep discount electronics surplus store.   Hey John, what kind of chests are you going to build?   As for Organbuilding 101, thanks for the vote guys but my time is now = being eaten by the Lawrence Livermore Labs where I have been engaged in a = project. Retirement was not supposed to be like this. I'm supposed to be sitting = on my wide posterior end (a safety feature since the low center of gravity = means I can't fall over after too many beers).   Al Sefl Who over designs everything because he's normally using taxpayer's = money... But secretly he can't do the math so he just doubles up on what sounds = safe... Trust him, that $400 hammer will NEVER fail...  
(back) Subject: Fan Puller From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:38:16 EST     --part1_186.1124ae73.2b059bf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   List,   After the two long-winded postings a couple months ago about my = acquisition of Austin Opus 1440, I've been pretty quiet. The organ remains stacked up = in my basement awaiting some stuff to be cleared out so I'll have room to = move around down there. Nevertheless, a little progress has been made.   Dave Heimer (on this list) came thru town yesterday and applied his meter = to my blower motor. The readings were the same accross all wires, so that = makes it a 3-phase motor. Now, I can see about getting it hooked up properly = and getting the proper starter, phase converter, and "heaters".   Now for my question.... I need to pull the fan out of the blower so I can =   clean it out, clean it off, and move the blower (it's terribly heavy). = It's a large 2hp Spencer at 5" wind. I removed the panel from the intake side. = After using Navel Jelly and cleaning some corrosion from the shaft, I was able to pull the 1st fan. Yes, I noted that an engraved arrow lines up = with a line enscribed on the shaft. Then, I removed a divider revealing the second fan. I removed the locking bolts from the fan and sprayed WD40 = into the holes and have tried to "rock" the fan off the shaft by pulling with = my hands while pressing my feet against the edges of the blower. Won't be = funny if the fan lets loose suddenly. Anyway, the fan won't budge. I had my = son place a wood block against the end of the shaft and strike it with a = hammer while I pulled (again, in that "lithotomy" position). Still won't budge.   There's about 11" of shaft over which this fan must be slid, but it hasn't =   budged a mm. Does one usually require some kind of "gear puller" in order = to remove these things? I would think that the edges of the fan would not tolerate a great deal of pulling - even if it were applied evenly as a = puller would do.   The inside of the blower compartment is quite filthy, with some oily dirt around. There is some greasy dirt on the outside of the motor. I was = hoping to take the blower down as far as I can to clean it up, repaint it with glossy paint, and clean up the motor. With the motor off, I would be able = to get it thru the doorway into the place where I would like the blower to reside, then put it back together.   Any advice would be appreciated.   Thanks, Keith Zimmerman, M.D. Commerce, Georgia   --part1_186.1124ae73.2b059bf8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">List,<BR> <BR> After the two long-winded postings a couple months ago about my = acquisition of Austin Opus 1440, I've been pretty quiet.&nbsp; The organ = remains stacked up in my basement awaiting some stuff to be cleared out so = I'll have room to move around down there.&nbsp; Nevertheless, a little = progress has been made.<BR> <BR> Dave Heimer (on this list) came thru town yesterday and applied his meter = to my blower motor.&nbsp; The readings were the same accross all wires, so = that makes it a 3-phase motor.&nbsp; Now, I can see about getting it = hooked up properly and getting the proper starter, phase converter, and = "heaters".<BR> <BR> Now for my question....&nbsp; I need to pull the fan out of the blower so = I can clean it out, clean it off, and move the blower (it's terribly = heavy).&nbsp; It's a large 2hp Spencer at 5" wind.&nbsp; I removed the = panel from the intake side.&nbsp; After using Navel Jelly and cleaning = some corrosion from the shaft, I was able to pull the 1st fan.&nbsp; Yes, = I noted that an engraved arrow lines up with a line enscribed on the = shaft.&nbsp; Then, I removed a divider revealing the second fan.&nbsp; I = removed the locking bolts from the fan and sprayed WD40 into the holes and = have tried to "rock" the fan off the shaft by pulling with my hands while = pressing my feet against the edges of the blower.&nbsp; Won't be funny if = the fan lets loose suddenly.&nbsp; Anyway, the fan won't budge.&nbsp; I had my son = place a wood block against the end of the shaft and strike it with a = hammer while I pulled (again, in that "lithotomy" position).&nbsp; Still = won't budge.<BR> <BR> There's about 11" of shaft over which this fan must be slid, but it hasn't = budged a mm.&nbsp; Does one usually require some kind of "gear puller" in = order to remove these things?&nbsp; I would think that the edges of the = fan would not tolerate a great deal of pulling - even if it were applied = evenly as a puller would do.<BR> <BR> The inside of the blower compartment is quite filthy, with some oily dirt = around.&nbsp; There is some greasy dirt on the outside of the motor.&nbsp; = I was hoping to take the blower down as far as I can to clean it up, = repaint it with glossy paint, and clean up the motor.&nbsp; With the motor = off, I would be able to get it thru the doorway into the place where I = would like the blower to reside, then put it back together.<BR> <BR> Any advice would be appreciated.<BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Keith Zimmerman, M.D.<BR> Commerce, Georgia</FONT></HTML>   --part1_186.1124ae73.2b059bf8_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller From: "John Haskey" <johnh@haskey.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:53:09 -0800 (PST)       On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 Kzimmer0817@aol.com wrote:   > > There's about 11" of shaft over which this fan must be slid, but it = hasn't > budged a mm. Does one usually require some kind of "gear puller" in = order to > remove these things? I would think that the edges of the fan would not > tolerate a great deal of pulling - even if it were applied evenly as a = puller > would do.   If it's just frozen/rusted in place try some 'Kroil' (www.kanolabs.com).   > The inside of the blower compartment is quite filthy, with some oily = dirt > around. There is some greasy dirt on the outside of the motor. I was = hoping > to take the blower down as far as I can to clean it up, repaint it with > glossy paint, and clean up the motor. With the motor off, I would be = able to > get it thru the doorway into the place where I would like the blower to > reside, then put it back together.   I'm doing the same thing with a single stage Spencer. Of course I took mine apart 4 years ago. I just hope I remember how it goes back together. It does look pretty painted glossy black.   ---john.    
(back) Subject: Is Wiring Clockwise or Counterclockwise? From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:57:00 EST     --part1_79.20fa8b4.2b05ae6c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   List,   I apologize for this being long. I could just ask my question, but I'm trying to show that I'm trying to think this thru instead of wasting = y'all's time and that I'm not totally stupid - just maybe missing a little = something here.....   Comments and question about organ wiring (hardwired, not solid state or = IC):   1. In a totally straight organ my assumption was that the electrons (current) flow from the rectifier via a "hot" wire to the console. When a =   key is pressed, the circuit is completed, and the current (after going = thru any coupling switches) leaves the console via a cable and activates the = note magnet for that particular key on the windchest thereby opening the = primary valve. From there, the current returns to the negative pole of the = rectifier via the common ground (the uninsulated wire that receives a little wire = from each magnet in my chest). Similarly, the current from the stop switch = goes from the console to the action magnet on the chest.   2. In a unified organ, I assume that there are actually two circuits involved. (1) The current travels from the console to the relay panel activating the magnet of a particular relay and returns to the rectifier = via a common ground. When a relay is activated, a new circuit (2) is = activated. In this second circuit, current from the rectifier is applied to the "pipe =   side" of each relay much like it is to the keys in the console. When the relay is activated, the circuit is completed sending current out the individual "fingers" of the relay to their respective gang-switches, and = from there to the particular pipe valves, and from there back to the relay via = a common ground.   IOW, my understanding has been that the console is "hot", or "positive", = and there is not current at the note or pipe valves unless a key is pressed = (I'm leaving out stops for simplicity). From working on a few light fixtures = (and getting shocked), I've realized that a circuit can be wired by sending the =   current to the particular fixture, first, and, then, to the switch. So.... =   simply having the switch off doesn't offer complete protection.   I'm wondering if part of my organ was wired clockwise and part was wired counterclockwise. When the late Dr. Doty acquired this organ from the church, he did not take the universal chest, but had two pitman chests = built. Then, he added two unit chests - one to each division. I can see the old =   cloth-covered cables attached to the wooden junction strips in the back of = my console. I can also see new cabling that was soldered in - most likely by =   Dr. Doty - to go to the relay panels for the two unit chests.   I'm thinking that the console is "hot", the relay panels are "cold", the pitman chests are "cold", but the unit chests are "hot".   In studying only my relay panel for the "Great" that controls the 73 note unit chest for the 4' Octave that is unified to 5 pitches, I've become a little confused.. From the thick file I received with the organ, Dr. Doty ordered these boards prewired from Durst/OSI. There are 61 relays on the =   board - each having 10 contact fingers - and 5 gang switches. The tiny = wires from the keys are neatly arranged between the rows of relays from one = side, each soldered to a pin that connects to the magnet of a relay. A second = wire from the relay magnet is connected to a stiff uninsulated copper bus that also runs between the rows. One end of this common is connected to a wire =   that exits the panel. So far it's easy for me to understand. This is how =   the keys activate the relays.   On the other side of the relays are tiny wires attached to the fingers of = the relays. Each relay has 5 wires attached to that side - one to each of 5 fingers per relay. While these wires are gathered into bundles and are difficult to trace, I'm assuming that the 61 wires from finger #1 of each relay go to the "comb" attached to the moving arm of one of the gang switches. Wires from finger #2 go to another gang switch, and the same = for those attached to fingers #3,4, &5. So I'm assuming that these little contacts carry the current to the gang switches and on to the pipes.   Now the part that confounded me...... There's a 3rd substantial wire = coming from the bottom of each relay. It's a multistranded, uninsulated wire, = and I'm thinking that it's attached to the movable contact bar on the relay. = I had tho't that this would be where the relay would receive current from = the rectifier..... the bar would be "hot" and, when the relay was activated by =   the switch, the bar would make contact with the fingers and send current = out. BUT........ this 3rd wire is soldered to the same common bus that the magnets are attached to. It really is!   This makes me think that, while the circuits from (1) key to pitman chests =   and (2) key to relays are wired clockwise so to speak, the circuit from = the relays to the unit chests are wired counterclockwise. With two wires from =   each relay being attached to a common, it appears that the pipes on the = unit chests are activated by grounding their circuits instead of sending the current TO them.   I would have tho't that the relay panel would have contained (1) the = common ground for the "key to relay" circuit as well as (2) the common "positive" =   for the "relay to gang switch to pipe valve" circuit, but it doesn't.   Does all that stated heretofore give y'all the feeling that I'm figuring = this out or AM I MISSING SOMETHING SOMEHERE? We doctors often have the notion that we either know everything or that we can figure anything out - which = is why we can be real butt holes sometimes (of course, I try not to be since = I didn't grow up on their side of the tracks). So I'm requesting a consultation from my organ buddies.   The wiring inside my console is such a filthy mess. I'm planning to rip = out all the wires, clean it out thoroughly, and rewire it with the 50pr telco cables and replace the wooden contact strip with the punch down blocks. = I'd like to make sure that I understand the wiring concept.   Thanks for y'all's indulgence. Keith   --part1_79.20fa8b4.2b05ae6c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">List,<BR> <BR> I apologize for this being long.&nbsp; I could just ask my question, but = I'm trying to show that I'm trying to think this thru instead of wasting = y'all's time and that I'm not totally stupid - just maybe missing a little = something here.....<BR> <BR> Comments and question about organ wiring (hardwired, not solid state or = IC):<BR> <BR> 1.&nbsp; In a totally straight organ my assumption was that the electrons = (current) flow from the rectifier via a "hot" wire to the console.&nbsp; = When a key is pressed, the circuit is completed, and the current (after = going thru any coupling switches) leaves the console via a cable and = activates the note magnet for that particular key on the windchest thereby = opening the primary valve.&nbsp; From there, the current returns to the = negative pole of the rectifier via the common ground (the uninsulated wire = that receives a little wire from each magnet in my chest).&nbsp; = Similarly, the current from the stop switch goes from the console to the = action magnet on the chest.<BR> <BR> 2.&nbsp; In a unified organ, I assume that there are actually two circuits = involved.&nbsp; (1) The current travels from the console to the relay = panel activating the magnet of a particular relay and returns to the = rectifier via a common ground.&nbsp; When a relay is activated, a new = circuit (2) is activated.&nbsp; In this second circuit, current from the = rectifier is applied to the "pipe side" of each relay much like it is to = the keys in the console.&nbsp; When the relay is activated, the circuit is = completed sending current out the individual "fingers" of the relay to = their respective gang-switches, and from there to the particular pipe valves, and from there back to the = relay via a common ground.<BR> <BR> IOW, my understanding has been that the console is "hot", or "positive", = and there is not current at the note or pipe valves unless a key is = pressed (I'm leaving out stops for simplicity).&nbsp; From working on a = few light fixtures (and getting shocked), I've realized that a circuit can = be wired by sending the current to the particular fixture, first, and, = then, to the switch. So.... simply having the switch off doesn't offer = complete protection.<BR> <BR> I'm wondering if part of my organ was wired clockwise and part was wired = counterclockwise.&nbsp; When the late Dr. Doty acquired this organ from = the church, he did not take the universal chest, but had two pitman chests = built.&nbsp; Then, he added two unit chests - one to each division.&nbsp; = I can see the old cloth-covered cables attached to the wooden junction = strips in the back of my console.&nbsp; I can also see new cabling that = was soldered in - most likely by Dr. Doty - to go to the relay panels for = the two unit chests. <BR> <BR> I'm thinking that the console is "hot", the relay panels are "cold", the = pitman chests are "cold", but the unit chests are "hot".<BR> <BR> In studying only my relay panel for the "Great" that controls the 73 note = unit chest for the 4' Octave that is unified to 5 pitches, I've become a = little confused.. From the thick file I received with the organ, Dr. Doty = ordered these boards prewired from Durst/OSI.&nbsp;&nbsp; There are 61 = relays on the board - each having 10 contact fingers - and 5 gang = switches.&nbsp; The tiny wires from the keys are neatly arranged between = the rows of relays from one side, each soldered to a pin that connects to = the magnet of a relay.&nbsp; A second wire from the relay magnet is = connected to a stiff uninsulated copper bus that also runs between the = rows.&nbsp; One end of this common is connected to a wire that exits the = panel.&nbsp; So far it's easy for me to understand.&nbsp; This is how the = keys activate the relays.<BR> <BR> On the other side of the relays are tiny wires attached to the fingers of = the relays.&nbsp; Each relay has 5 wires attached to that side - one to = each of 5 fingers per relay.&nbsp; While these wires are gathered into = bundles and are difficult to trace, I'm assuming that the 61 wires from = finger #1 of each relay go to the "comb" attached to the moving arm of one = of the gang switches.&nbsp; Wires from finger #2 go to another gang = switch, and the same for those attached to fingers #3,4, &amp;5.&nbsp; So = I'm assuming that these little contacts carry the current to the gang = switches and on to the pipes.<BR> <BR> Now the part that confounded me......&nbsp; There's a 3rd substantial wire = coming from the bottom of each relay.&nbsp; It's a multistranded, = uninsulated wire, and I'm thinking that it's attached to the movable = contact bar on the relay.&nbsp; I had tho't that this would be where the = relay would receive current from the rectifier..... the bar would be "hot" = and, when the relay was activated by the switch, the bar would make = contact with the fingers and send current out.&nbsp;&nbsp; = BUT........&nbsp; this 3rd wire is soldered to the same common bus that = the magnets are attached to.&nbsp; It really is!<BR> <BR> This makes me think that, while the circuits from (1) key to pitman chests = and (2) key to relays are wired clockwise so to speak, the circuit from = the relays to the unit chests are wired counterclockwise.&nbsp; With two = wires from each relay being attached to a common, it appears that the = pipes on the unit chests are activated by grounding their circuits instead = of sending the current TO them.<BR> <BR> I would have tho't that the relay panel would have contained (1) the = common ground for the "key to relay" circuit as well as (2) the common = "positive" for the "relay to gang switch to pipe valve" circuit, but it = doesn't.<BR> <BR> Does all that stated heretofore give y'all the feeling that I'm figuring = this out or AM I MISSING SOMETHING SOMEHERE?&nbsp; We doctors often have the notion that we either know everything or that we can figure = anything out - which is why we can be real butt holes sometimes (of = course, I try not to be since I didn't grow up on their side of the = tracks).&nbsp; So I'm requesting a consultation from my organ buddies.<BR> <BR> The wiring inside my console is such a filthy mess.&nbsp; I'm planning to = rip out all the wires, clean it out thoroughly, and rewire it with the = 50pr telco cables and replace the wooden contact strip with the punch down = blocks.&nbsp; I'd like to make sure that I understand the wiring = concept.<BR> <BR> Thanks for y'all's indulgence.<BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_79.20fa8b4.2b05ae6c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller From: "Bill Hewitson - wurlic1" <wurlic1@lara.on.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:07:22 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0031_01C28C32.96C065C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Keith: I moved a 5hp Spencer (probably one of the last built, with a much =3D lighter Westinghouse single phase motor by myself with no one else even = =3D around. I was .74. I used a "come-along" , a trailer with a ramp =3D and ROLLERS, (at least three pieces of standard pipe will do) and a pry = =3D bar. After unloading there were two 90 degree turns and quite a =3D distance on the basement floor. Some take Medicine and other take =3D Engineering. I am NOT taking it apart. Shipping manifest said it was =3D 770 pounds . I did take the air intake enclosure off so if would go =3D through the doors but did have to remove part of a door fram to get a =3D clear ,inchs.for the shaft. .Origionally, I moved it from Buffalo area = =3D with the same equipment. Good luck.   wurlic1@lara.on.ca ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Kzimmer0817@aol.com=3D20 To: diyapason-l@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller     ------=3D_NextPart_000_0031_01C28C32.96C065C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Keith:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>I moved a 5hp Spencer (probably one = of =3D the last=3D20 built, with a much lighter Westinghouse single phase motor by myself =3D with no one=3D20 else even around.&nbsp;&nbsp; I was .74.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;I used = =3D a=3D20 "come-along" , a trailer with a ramp and ROLLERS, (at least three pieces = =3D of=3D20 standard pipe will do) and a pry bar.&nbsp;&nbsp; After unloading there = =3D were two=3D20 90 degree turns and quite a distance on the basement floor.&nbsp; Some =3D take=3D20 Medicine and other take Engineering.&nbsp; I am NOT taking it =3D apart.&nbsp;=3D20 Shipping manifest said it was 770 pounds .&nbsp; I did take the air =3D intake=3D20 enclosure off so if would go through the doors but did have to remove =3D part of a=3D20 door fram to get a clear ,inchs.for the shaft.&nbsp; .Origionally, I =3D moved it=3D20 from Buffalo area with the same equipment.&nbsp; Good luck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:wurlic1@lara.on.ca">wurlic1@lara.on.ca</A></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3DKzimmer0817@aol.com=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:Kzimmer0817@aol.com">Kzimmer0817@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Ddiyapason-l@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:diyapason-l@pipechat.org">diyapason-l@pipechat.org</A> = =3D </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 14, = =3D 2002 7:38=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] Fan = =3D   Puller</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D3D0 =3D face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2=3D20 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0031_01C28C32.96C065C0--      
(back) Subject: Organ Wiring Primer From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 22:59:15 -0600   Kzimmer0817@aol.com wrote: > List, > I apologize for this being long. I could just ask my question, but > I'm trying to show that I'm trying to think this thru instead of > wasting y'all's time and that I'm not totally stupid - just maybe > missing a little something here.....   <details snipped>   Don't assume ANYTHING!!!! Take a good solid state voltmeter (in other words: one that indicates polarity and not just a test lamp, as this tells you nothing other than whether or not the circuit works!) and work your way through the circuitry in order to determine what's happening.   Generally speaking: Key contacts on old "analog" (non solid-state) system were wired to the Positive (+ or "hot") side of the supply and magnets were returned Negative (- or "cold" -I don't like that term because if electricity is flowing through anything, it can hardly be termed "cold" accurately!) For the purpose of this discussion, let's use "RETURN" instead. . . It's more accurate.   If a relay is used, its contact wipers were also generally wired Positive, thus duplicating the actions of the key contacts, only remotely. The magnets these relays feed are then returned Negative.   There must be a way to break the circuit in order to obtain stop action. The most effective way is to use a gang switch as suggested. Through multiple contact points on the relay and the strategic wiring of various gang switches, unification; that is to say: the ability to play stops at different pitches in order to round-out a specification cost-efficiently, is achieved.   Sometimes in "straight" organs using individual magnets, stop action is achieved by the use of one large relay to break the return, but this defeats the ability to have unification. Moreover, it becomes important to have isolation diodes in series with the magnets, otherwise, unexpected results can happen due to "run-back" across the magnet coils!   Electrical systems are really analogous to plumbing systems, at least in terms of the thought-process in order to understand what is going on. It is an easy matter to simply sketch out the various "closed-loop" systems, or circuits in order to understand the principles of operation and thus be able to determine what is actually happening, how it is happening, and how it can be modified or re-wired to suit your goals.   > The wiring inside my console is such a filthy mess. I'm planning to > rip out all the wires, clean it out thoroughly, and rewire it with the > 50pr telco cables and replace the wooden contact strip with the punch > down blocks. I'd like to make sure that I understand the wiring > concept.   Starting over is always a good idea if things are as bad as you describe! Faithfully,   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:08:11 EST     --part1_146.2affc52.2b05db3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   John,   Thanks for your reply. I looked at the Kroil website and also found Silikroil (kroil with silicone) and Penephite (looks like kroil with graphite). Are you familiar with any of these other two products? It's probably a moot point, because the website has a promotional in which you = can buy one product and get a can of another one free. I might try that.   Thanks,again. Keith   --part1_146.2affc52.2b05db3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">John,<BR> <BR> Thanks for your reply.&nbsp; I looked at the Kroil website and also found = Silikroil (kroil with silicone) and Penephite (looks like kroil with = graphite).&nbsp; Are you familiar with any of these other two = products?&nbsp; It's probably a moot point, because the website has a = promotional in which you can buy one product and get a can of another one = free.&nbsp; I might try that.<BR> <BR> Thanks,again.<BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_146.2affc52.2b05db3b_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:12:11 EST   Heat the fan hub somewhat with a Bernz-o-matic torch, doesnt have to be = too hot,,,,should slide right off. Try NOT to get the motor shaft hot at the = same time, apply heat to the hub only. ---Roc L V Rockafellow  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Wiring Primer From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:25:31 EST     --part1_c3.2bf67899.2b05df4b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 11/14/2002 11:59:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, arpschneider@starband.net writes:     > If a relay is used, its contact wipers were also generally wired > Positive, thus duplicating the actions of the key contacts, only > remotely. The magnets these relays feed are then returned Negative   Richard,   That's what I had expected to find. What I actually did find was exactly what I described. The wire that I would have expected to see as the = "feed" wire to the wiper of the relay (actually, the horizontal bar that comes up = to touch the 10 little fingers on the relay) was attached to the naked copper =   wire to which was attached the ground wire for the relay magnet itself. That's why I felt that the remote circuit was running the opposite = direction. I can't think of anything else that that particular wire would be doing.   I had been told by another amateur that the "feed" or "supply" wire for = the remote circuit is sometimes attached directly to the outer 1 or 2 fingers. = When the relay is activated by pressing the key, the bar moves up and = simply connects the "hot" finger(s) to the remaining ones to complete the = circuit. If that were the case, I wouldn't see any need for this 3rd wire from = under the relay to be connected to anything. Besides, only 5 of the 10 fingers = on each of my relays is being used, and there are 5 gang switches at the = bottom of the relay panel, so I must believe that the remote circuit = (relay-to-pipe valve) must be wired with reverse polarity.   I saw the common ground for the magnet side of the relays, and understood = why it was there. I would have expected to see a separate "supply" common running parallel to this one that would have had attached to it the 3rd = wire from each relay. That would have supplied current to the bar/wiper - analagous to what happens at the key level within the console - only remotely, as you stated.   Since (1) I see no other wire that could be a supply wire attached to the relays and (2) the wire from each relay that comes from the bottom of it somewhere is attached to the same common that the magnet is attached = to.... I can't help but believe that my unit chests have positive commons. Current =   goes to the pipe valve first, and the switch (relay) is downstream.   Since the pitman chests are wired directly from the console, it's easy for = me to believe that they have negative commons.   Respectfully, Keith   --part1_c3.2bf67899.2b05df4b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 11/14/2002 11:59:39 PM = Eastern Standard Time, arpschneider@starband.net writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If a relay is = used, its contact wipers were also generally wired<BR> Positive, thus duplicating the actions of the key contacts, only<BR> remotely.&nbsp; The magnets these relays feed are then returned = Negative</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Richard,<BR> <BR> That's what I had expected to find.&nbsp; What I actually did find was = exactly what I described.&nbsp; The wire that I would have expected to see = as the "feed" wire to the wiper of the relay (actually, the horizontal bar = that comes up to touch the 10 little fingers on the relay) was attached to = the naked copper wire to which was attached the ground wire for the relay = magnet itself.&nbsp; That's why I felt that the remote circuit was running = the opposite direction.&nbsp; I can't think of anything else that that = particular wire would be doing.<BR> <BR> I had been told by another amateur that the "feed" or "supply" wire for = the remote circuit is sometimes attached directly to the outer 1 or 2 = fingers.&nbsp; When the relay is activated by pressing the key, the bar = moves up and simply connects the "hot" finger(s) to the remaining ones to complete the = circuit.&nbsp; If that were the case, I wouldn't see any need for this 3rd = wire from under the relay to be connected to anything.&nbsp; Besides, only = 5 of the 10 fingers on each of my relays is being used, and there are 5 = gang switches at the bottom of the relay panel, so I must believe that the = remote circuit (relay-to-pipe valve) must be wired with reverse = polarity.<BR> <BR> I saw the common ground for the magnet side of the relays, and understood = why it was there.&nbsp; I would have expected to see a separate "supply" = common running parallel to this one that would have had attached to it the = 3rd wire from each relay.&nbsp; That would have supplied current to the = bar/wiper - analagous to what happens at the key level within the console = - only remotely, as you stated.<BR> <BR> Since (1) I see no other wire that could be a supply wire attached to the = relays and (2) the wire from each relay that comes from the bottom of it = somewhere is attached to the same common that the magnet is attached = to.... I can't help but believe that my unit chests have positive = commons.&nbsp; Current goes to the pipe valve first, and the switch = (relay) is downstream.<BR> <BR> Since the pitman chests are wired directly from the console, it's easy for = me to believe that they have negative commons.<BR> <BR> Respectfully,<BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_c3.2bf67899.2b05df4b_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Fan Puller From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:26:46 -0800   Any of Kano Lab's products are good. I use Kroil regularly, and buy it by the gallon. Also buy it in aerosol cans, but not too many. I use Penephite and Silikroil, and they are exactly as you describe. Penephite is great for car door locks here where it freezes in winter. I use Kroil to free rusted gas engine pistons and antique water pump parts which are heavily rusted in place. Sometimes I have to add the oil, and heat the part, or just leave it in the sun for a week or more to allow the oil to penetrate, but it will. As far as the blower fan, take emery cloth or fine sandpaper, and polish the shaft ahead of the fan. Apply the oil to the joint, and allow it to soak. Turn the fan blade to make sure you get the oil all around the joint. Heat the hub with a propane torch GENTLY, as that might help it loosen. Good luck!   At 12:08 AM 11/15/02 EST, Kzimmer0817@aol.com wrote: >John,   Thanks for your reply. I looked at the Kroil website and also found Silikroil (kroil with silicone) and Penephite (looks like kroil with graphite). Are you familiar with any of these other two products? It's probably a moot point, because the website has a promotional in which you can buy one product and get a can of another one free. I might try that.   Thanks,again. Keith   Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA http://home.jps.net/~rrloesch/index.htm   Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professional engineers built the Titanic.      
(back) Subject: Fan Puller-use KROIL From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:29:58 -0600   Keith,   Ditto on the advice about KROIL. IN fact, we keep cases of it in stock and would be glad to ship you a single can for your use.   You might want to contact Joe Rotella at Spencer Organ Company in Boston to ask him how he does this, because he often rejuvenates old Spencer blowers and moves them. He has the expertise you seek. Just don't take changes and do something you'll regret; either anatomically, or to the blower!   I suppose that's one sure-fired way of birth control. . . . <VEG!>   Faithfully,   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL