DIYAPASON-L Digest #667 - Wednesday, October 16, 2002
 
Re: Deslotting
  by <Jess4203@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Deslotting Geigens
  by "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Deslotting Geigens
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Deslotting From: <Jess4203@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:16:24 EDT     --part1_69.2efb0b35.2adeceb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi Keith and list:   Doubtless you may get better replies than mine, but here goes. The = slot is said to produce some "horniness" in the tone. You can slide the tuning =   slide over the slot and get an idea of what the pipe would sound like = without it. Or you may want to use tape to be sure the slot is closed when you = blow. The slot seems to accentuate an overtone whose pitch is related to the slot's length and width. The more "classical" your voicing, the more you will want to remove the slot. Removing the slot will not remove all the stringiness in the tone, as there are other factors at work, too, such as beards, scale, cutup, nicks, etc. Slots are often removed by soldering a piece of pipe metal into the slot. At that point the pipe may be too long =   for its place in the rank, and may have to be cut off shorter. There are formulas that can help you obtain the right speaking length. If the pipe = is left longer, all the pipes can be moved down a space (remove the last pipe =   and don't use it), thereby decreasing the scale a bit. If you cut off the =   slot, you might have to go the other way and find a replacement lowest = pipe. This way the scale increases, as a fatter pipe goes up higher. Louis Monette has an interesting discussion of this in his book, = "Organ Tonal Finishing and Fine Tuning." He recommends filling the slots, but = then he also recommends doing away with almost all nicking and using completely =   open toe voicing, too, so his view may be more extreme than some. On our list, some folks fell one should leave pipe voicing to pipe voicers and others (my self included) will do some experiments. If you are going to = do anything to modify the tone of your geigens, especially something that is irreversible (deslotting is reversible with some trouble), get some good advice from a professional first, unless the pipes are expendable. I have = a number of salicional and other odd string pipes that I am going to rescale =   and cut off to make a 4 foot principal (I hope). I will probably be = opening up toe holes and burnishing off nicks, etc. in the process, but these are = odd pipes which don't have much other use and would probably go to the melting =   pot otherwise. From your remarks, you may want to rescale (go bigger) if you can = find the replacement pipes you will need in the bottom octave. You might not = be able to get much bigger without soldering on extensions . . . sounds like = you do need some expert advice. Also remember that used pipework is often = fairly cheap and so yo might find a repalcement rank that suits better if you can =   wait for it to turn up.   Best Regards, Roy Kersey   --part1_69.2efb0b35.2adeceb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Keith and list: <BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Doubtless you may get better replies than = mine, but here goes. &nbsp;The slot is said to produce some "horniness" in = the tone. &nbsp;You can slide the tuning slide over the slot and get an = idea of what the pipe would sound like without it. &nbsp;Or you may want = to use tape to be sure the slot is closed when you blow. &nbsp;The slot = seems to accentuate an overtone whose pitch is related to the slot's = length and width. &nbsp;The more "classical" your voicing, the more you = will want to remove the slot. &nbsp;Removing the slot will not remove all = the stringiness in the tone, as there are other factors at work, too, such = as beards, scale, cutup, nicks, etc. &nbsp;Slots are often removed by = soldering a piece of pipe metal into the slot. &nbsp;At that point the = pipe may be too long for its place in the rank, and may have to be cut off = shorter. &nbsp;There are formulas that can help you obtain the right = speaking length. &nbsp;If the pipe is left longer, al! l the pipes can be moved down a space (remove the last pipe and don't use it), thereby decreasing the scale a bit. &nbsp;If you cut off the slot, = you might have to go the other way and find a replacement lowest pipe. = &nbsp;This way the scale increases, as a fatter pipe goes up higher. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Louis Monette has an interesting discussion = of this in his book, "Organ Tonal Finishing and Fine Tuning." &nbsp;He = recommends filling the slots, but then he also recommends doing away with = almost all nicking and using completely open toe voicing, too, so his view = may be more extreme than some. &nbsp;On our list, some folks fell one = should leave pipe voicing to pipe voicers and others (my self included) = will do some experiments. &nbsp;If you are going to do anything to modify = the tone of your geigens, especially something that is irreversible = (deslotting is reversible with some trouble), get some good advice from a = professional first, unless the pipes are expendable. &nbsp;I have a number = of salicional and other odd string pipes that I am going to rescale and = cut off to make a 4 foot principal (I hope). &nbsp;I will probably be = opening up toe holes and burnishing off nicks, etc. in the process, but = these are odd pipes which don't have much other use! and would probably go to the melting pot otherwise. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From your remarks, you may want to rescale = (go bigger) if you can find the replacement pipes you will need in the = bottom octave. &nbsp;You might not be able to get much bigger without = soldering on extensions . . . sounds like you do need some expert advice. = &nbsp;Also remember that used pipework is often fairly cheap and so yo = might find a repalcement rank that suits better if you can wait for it to = turn up. <BR> <BR>Best Regards, <BR>Roy Kersey</FONT></HTML>   --part1_69.2efb0b35.2adeceb8_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Deslotting Geigens From: "Eric Sagmuller" <ess4@psu.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:55:55 -0400   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1153648= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"; format=3Dflowed   At 11:27 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote: >List, > >This question may be premature since I do not yet have my organ set up = and >playing. Nevertheless, I'll post it. > >My organ has an 8' Geigen Diapason as its unison diapason for the >Great. There is a 4' Octave as well. I did not get an adequate enough >"listen" to these to really determine how they sounded. I was told by >someone experienced in these matters that they were not really scaled = well >relative to each other. The octave played an octave lower actually >sounded more like it should be the 8' Open. > >A recommendation was made to deslot the geigen. I've heard mixed reviews =   >on this. I guess my comfusion stems from my lack of understanding of = what >part the "slot" plays structurally. The speaking length of an open pipe >determines the pitch. Tuning collars are often used to make fine >adjustments in the speaking length in order to tune the pipes. I >understand that a cap doubles the speaking length and lowers the pitch an =   >octave. I assume that a stopped pipe that is to have a stopper instead = of >a cap must be made a little longer than a capped pipe in order to >accomodate the thickness of the stopper. > >I'm not certain where the slots fit in. These pipes are tuned either by >sliding a tuning collar that fits proximal to the slots and covers up = more >or less of the slot(s) as needed to effect tuning or by twisting up or >down the tongue of pipe metal from the pipe (that makes the slot) much >like opening a sardine can. > >Is some portion of the slot included in the speaking length of the >pipe? I would think that it would need to be in order to have such an >effect on the timbre of the pipe. > >My reason for going thru the above thinking process is that I had tho't >about cutting the pipe off below the slots and using a tuning collar to >return the pipe to its speaking length. I was told that cutting off the >slots would remove much of the stringiness of the geigen.   My first 12 pipes of my 8' Diapason have slots and are collar tuned. They are not Geigen's though. I was told the builder I got these from that I could just cut them off at the beginning of the slots and use the collars to tune them as before. In other words the slot above the collar is unnecessary.     >What I didn't understand was how this would affect the "scale" of the >pipe. I was told that some shifting of pipes might be necessary to get >the scaling correct. If the slotted pipe is of a certain scale > you cut =   >off the slotted portion just proximal to what would be the appropriate >speaking length for that same pitch > place a tuning collar to fine tune >the pitch > how have you changed the scale?   This would NOT affect the scaling. To make the scale heavier or larger in diameter, your C1 pipe would need to become C#2 or even D3 and all other pipes would shift up accordingly. You then would need to shorten each = pipe to bring it back in pitch. This way the pipes are one or two scale sizes larger. The problem is you end up with one or two missing pipes in bottom end. You would then need to find a pipe or two to replace the missing = ones.     >IOW, can you make a geigen into a plain 8' open diapason?   Yes as I explained above.   BTW, what did you ever determine on your blower motor as far as if it's 3 phase or not, how to connect it etc?   Thanks, Eric     >Thanks, >Keith   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1153648= =3D=3D_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"us-ascii"   <html> At 11:27 PM 10/15/2002 -0400, you wrote:<br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite><font size=3D2>List,<br><br> This question may be premature since I do not yet have my organ set up and playing.&nbsp; Nevertheless, I'll post it.<br><br> My organ has an 8' Geigen Diapason as its unison diapason for the Great.&nbsp; There is a 4' Octave as well.&nbsp; I did not get an adequate enough &quot;listen&quot; to these to really determine how they sounded.&nbsp; I was told by someone experienced in these matters that they were not really scaled well relative to each other.&nbsp; The octave played an octave lower actually sounded more like it should be the 8' Open.<br><br> A recommendation was made to deslot the geigen.&nbsp; I've heard mixed reviews on this.&nbsp; I guess my comfusion stems from my lack of understanding of what part the &quot;slot&quot; plays structurally.&nbsp; The speaking length of an open pipe determines the pitch.&nbsp; Tuning collars are often used to make fine adjustments in the speaking length in order to tune the pipes.&nbsp; I understand that a cap doubles the speaking length and lowers the pitch an octave.&nbsp; I assume that a stopped pipe that is to have a stopper instead of a cap must be made a little longer than a capped pipe in order to accomodate the thickness of the stopper.<br><br> I'm not certain where the slots fit in.&nbsp; These pipes are tuned either by sliding a tuning collar that fits proximal to the slots and covers up more or less of the slot(s) as needed to effect tuning or by twisting up or down the tongue of pipe metal from the pipe (that makes the slot) much like opening a sardine can.<br><br> Is some portion of the slot included in the speaking length of the pipe?&nbsp; I would think that it would need to be in order to have such an effect on the timbre of the pipe.<br><br> My reason for going thru the above thinking process is that I had tho't about cutting the pipe off below the slots and using a tuning collar to return the pipe to its speaking length.&nbsp; I was told that cutting off the slots would remove much of the stringiness of the geigen.</font></blockquote><br> My first 12 pipes of my 8' Diapason have slots and are collar tuned. They are not Geigen's though. I was told the builder I got these from that I could just cut them off at the beginning of the slots and use the collars to tune them as before. In other words the slot above the collar is unnecessary. <br><br> <br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite><font size=3D2>What I didn't understand was how this would affect the &quot;scale&quot; of the pipe.&nbsp; I was told that some shifting of pipes might be necessary to get the scaling correct.&nbsp; If the slotted pipe is of a certain scale &gt; you cut off the slotted portion just proximal to what would be the appropriate speaking length for that same pitch &gt; place a tuning collar to fine tune the pitch &gt; how have you changed the scale?</font></blockquote><br> This would NOT affect the scaling. To make the scale heavier or larger in diameter, your C1 pipe would need to become C#2 or even D3 and all other pipes would shift up&nbsp; accordingly. You then would need to shorten each pipe to bring it back in pitch. This way the pipes are one or two scale sizes larger. The problem is you end up with one or two missing pipes in bottom end. You would then need to find a pipe or two to replace the missing ones. <br><br> <br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite><font size=3D2>IOW, can you make = a geigen into a plain 8' open diapason?</font></blockquote><br> Yes as I explained above.<br><br> BTW, what did you ever determine on your blower motor as far as if it's 3 phase or not, how to connect it etc?<br><br> Thanks,<br> Eric<br><br> <br> <blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite><font size=3D2>Thanks,<br> Keith</font><font face=3D"arial"> </font></blockquote></html>   --=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D_1153648= =3D=3D_.ALT--    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Deslotting Geigens From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:45:07 EDT     --part1_51.25eff029.2adf7e33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 10/16/2002 6:22:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, = ess4@psu.edu writes:     > BTW, what did you ever determine on your blower motor as far as if it's = 3 > phase or not, how to connect it etc? >   Another pipe organ buff who had been an electrical engineer (he has some electrical qualifications) stopped by today to see my organ piled up in = the basement. He said that my blower did look like a 3-phase motor. He drew = out on a box how to hook it up and what kind of capacitors to get. He also suggested going to Granger's. There's one about 18 miles from me.   I've wanted to find out who in my area services electric motors. An old family friend retired from a company whose purpose was to rewind motors. He's about 2 hours away, though. There is some grease and dirt on parts = of the casing. I had thought about taking the motor off and taking it to an expert in the field. I've heard that these things are very heavy and that =   the shaft is continuous into the actual blower, so that won't be an easy project. I had wondered if the motor needed to be opened and cleaned up. =   Maybe I just need to wipe it off.   I appreciate the advice of the professionals a while back telling us to please get professional help in this area. I definitely do not want to = burn my house down - at least not with all my stuff inside.   Sincerely, Keith Zimmerman Commerce, Georgia   --part1_51.25eff029.2adf7e33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 10/16/2002 6:22:35 PM Eastern = Standard Time, ess4@psu.edu writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">BTW, what did you = ever determine on your blower motor as far as if it's 3 phase or not, how = to connect it etc?<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Another pipe organ buff who had been an electrical engineer (he has some = electrical qualifications) stopped by today to see my organ piled up in = the basement.&nbsp; He said that my blower did look like a 3-phase = motor.&nbsp; He drew out on a box how to hook it up and what kind of = capacitors to get.&nbsp; He also suggested going to Granger's.&nbsp; = There's one about 18 miles from me.<BR> <BR> I've wanted to find out who in my area services electric motors.&nbsp; An = old family friend retired from a company whose purpose was to rewind = motors.&nbsp; He's about 2 hours away, though.&nbsp; There is some grease = and dirt on parts of the casing.&nbsp; I had thought about taking the = motor off and taking it to an expert in the field.&nbsp; I've heard that = these things are very heavy and that the shaft is continuous into the = actual blower, so that won't be an easy project.&nbsp; I had wondered if = the motor needed to be opened and cleaned up.&nbsp; Maybe I just need to = wipe it off.<BR> <BR> I appreciate the advice of the professionals a while back telling us to = please get professional help in this area.&nbsp; I definitely do not want = to burn my house down - at least not with all my stuff inside.<BR> <BR> Sincerely,<BR> Keith Zimmerman<BR> Commerce, Georgia</FONT></HTML>   --part1_51.25eff029.2adf7e33_boundary--