DIYAPASON-L Digest #653 - Saturday, September 21, 2002
 
Using Telephone Wires
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Lexicon on using Telephone Wire
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Lexicon on using telephone wire
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: Switching
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Switching
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: Switching
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
 

(back) Subject: Using Telephone Wires From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:11:24 -0500   Tell me more about this. I am assembling an organ from various parts. = The console was one which used pneumatics in addition to the electric side of things, and I do not plan to use that. It will control three main chests (one pitman and two d-e), etc.   I want some sort of modular or connector wiring system because I know I = will be moving this organ in 2-10 years to what hopefully will be its permanent installation wherever I retire. I do not want to face soldering, unsoldering, and resoldering hundreds of wires.   I do have access to brand new organ cable at a great price, but I don't = know what kind I need to order (number of wires, etc.)   And I am hoping to use a modern solid state relay system (Peterson?)   Dennis Steckley "For I am possessed of a cat, surpassing in beauty, from whom I take occasion to bless Almighty God." ----- Original Message -----     Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Connections From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:36:26 -0700   On our Wurlitzer re-installs we always use the phone system of connectors. Why re-invent the wheel? Another bonus is that if you see an office building being rehabilitated the phone company often strips out and dumps the previous cabling. so we haven't paid for a cable yet!   The beauty is the extensive colorcoding that makes connecting/trouble shooting easier. On a chest we use two 50 pin connectors, a M/F pair for each, already attached to cables. Now the chest or bottom board can be easily disconnected. For distribution we use the phone punchblocks, also salvaged. The punch blocks give you test points as well.   John V   DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Lexicon on using Telephone Wire From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:17:49 -0500     "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" wrote: > Tell me more about this. I am assembling an organ from various parts. = The > console was one which used pneumatics in addition to the electric side = of > things, and I do not plan to use that. It will control three main = chests > (one pitman and two d-e), etc. > > I want some sort of modular or connector wiring system because I know I = will > be moving this organ in 2-10 years to what hopefully will be its = permanent > installation wherever I retire. I do not want to face soldering, > unsoldering, and resoldering hundreds of wires. > I do have access to brand new organ cable at a great price, but I don't = know > what kind I need to order (number of wires, etc.) > And I am hoping to use a modern solid state relay system (Peterson?) Dennis,   If you use a Peterson system, there are output connectors which are part of the system which you can utilize in order to make your instrument "Modular" and able to be readily unplugged and re-connected in a new location.   In our shop, we build our windchests "pre-terminated" with the measured length (plus always some extra, just in case!) of cable, and terminated with the requisite number of Peterson output junction pins using #24 TELCO cable.   In some instances, we may find that due to layout circumstances, it is necessary for any given stop to be on multiple windchests and in that case, we simply arrange for the cable plugs to be terminated onto the Peterson output driver card in the proper location (appropriately marked on the plug!) and use double row output pins so that there is a little "breathing room" to permit the plugs and cables from different windchests to terminate onto the output driver cards.   If you look at picture #62 in the pictures group on our recent project: First Mennonite Church in Berne, IN at http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com , you'll notice the aforementioned output driver cards with the double row output "daughter" boards plugged into them, which have, in turn, the connector for the various windchests. Some of these stops have no less than 5 or 6 windchests for them, due to the layout complexity and the size of the pipes involved! But this was easily handled by this arrangement.   Moreover, if it ever becomes necessary to re-leather the Pouchboards on these windchests, necessitating removal of Bung Boards with the actions, they can be unplugged, the cable clamps unscrewed from the floor and taken away in less than an hour's time.   Therefore, selecting "what kind" of TELCO cable is a function of how many notes (plus some spare wires-ALWAYS!) will be on the chest in question. The cable is readily available from 1 par (2 wires, although the most commonly-used type is 2 pair or 4 wires) up to 500 pairs, although much over 50 pairs, which is another very common size, becomes both more difficult to find and costly. Multiple runs of the more common sizes between the two sizes mentioned is another option.   The long and sort of it is: it requires some advanced planning on what is going to go where and how the cables are going to be run back to the relay location.   I believe I've mentioned before that our shop keeps a running inventory of the most commonly used sizes up to 200 pairs in reels and we simply pull off the reel and make up the cables we need as each windchest gets finished up in the shop.   However, without tying-up that kind of inventory for a residence job, you can usually work out the cable lengths in advance and order accordingly. Remember to leave plenty on each end for lacing-out onto the windchests and for terminating into the Connectors on the other end!   The connectorized TELCO cables that John Vanderlee speaks of are a fairly common item, but the only drawback with this system is that they are only available in 50 wires, which is an odd size in organbuilding. Far too many for most offset chests (except a 49 note celeste!) and 11 wires too few for a 61 note chest.   Granted: they can be used in multiples or the extras in lesser pipe configurations can be left as spares, but to my eye, the effect is somewhat bulky and unprofessional.   Peterson connectors can be ordered in advance of a relay system from them, so that if you wanted to start doing your termination now and then get the relay later, that would be possible.   Hope this helps!   Faithfully, -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL      
(back) Subject: Lexicon on using telephone wire From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:36:51 EDT     --part1_60.266300b6.2abe2453_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Rich,   You were using Peterson as your example. I found the Peterson components = a little difficult to understand - I guess the site is geared mainly towards =   you guys who know what you want.   Anyway, it looks to me as if the Peterson system has two main branches: 1. The OrgaPlex - which appears to be a computer controlled switching and =   coupling system. I'm assuming that this system is much more expensive = than the latter.   2. The Diode Matrix Switching System - which appears to me to be the = solid state version of the Relay board and Gang switches we see in pipe organs = - just no moving parts.   I guess I'm getting confused by trying to figure out how all this works. It's like there's a "box" that has inputs on one side to which you connect =   your keys, stops, pistons, etc. On the other side of the "box" are = contacts that you run to your pipes. The fancier ones have outputs that go back to =   the on/off magnets on the stop tabs. Inside this box is where all the = stuff takes place - stuff that I shouldn't be worried about.   Some systems appear to not even differentiate between different inputs or different outputs. You just screw any "input" into one side of the "box" = and start connecting "outputs" from the other side of the "box" to whatever is =   supposed to be affected by an output. I guess you then hook a computer to =   the "box" to tell it what each input terminal is, where each output = terminal goes, then "map out" the various connections using software.   I've got a question coming in a minute, but I'll think it thru in my head before posting it.   Thanks, Keith   --part1_60.266300b6.2abe2453_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Rich,<BR> <BR> You were using Peterson as your example.&nbsp; I found the Peterson = components a little difficult to understand - I guess the site is geared = mainly towards you guys who know what you want.<BR> <BR> Anyway, it looks to me as if the Peterson system has two main = branches:<BR> 1.&nbsp; The OrgaPlex - which appears to be a computer controlled = switching and coupling system.&nbsp; I'm assuming that this system is much = more expensive than the latter.<BR> <BR> 2.&nbsp; The Diode Matrix Switching System - which appears to me to be the = solid state version of the Relay board and Gang&nbsp; switches we see in = pipe organs - just no moving parts.<BR> <BR> I guess I'm getting confused by trying to figure out how all this = works.&nbsp; It's like there's a "box" that has inputs on one side to = which you connect your keys, stops, pistons, etc.&nbsp; On the other side = of the "box" are contacts that you run to your pipes.&nbsp; The fancier = ones have outputs that go back to the on/off magnets on the stop = tabs.&nbsp; Inside this box is where all the stuff takes place - stuff = that I shouldn't be worried about.<BR> <BR> Some systems appear to not even differentiate between different inputs or = different outputs.&nbsp; You just screw any "input" into one side of the = "box" and start connecting "outputs" from the other side of the "box" to = whatever is supposed to be affected by an output.&nbsp; I guess you then = hook a computer to the "box" to tell it what each input terminal is, where = each output terminal goes, then "map out" the various connections using = software.<BR> <BR> I've got a question coming in a minute, but I'll think it thru in my head = before posting it.<BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_60.266300b6.2abe2453_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Switching From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:33:50 -0400   [Subject was "Lexicon on using telephone wire", but we seem to have moved back to the more general topic.]   Keith's description of two "boxes" can be applied to many organ control systems, and in fact (at least in the old days) the organ component supply houses would also build electro-pneumatic or electric switching systems to the organ builder's specifications. The builder would then treat it as a "box", of Keith's first type, where the individual inputs and outputs are pre-defined to have specific meanings.   There is a whole range of systems available of this sort, including the diode matrix type, multiplexing types, and (probably) even some processor-based types.   Keith's second type of "box", where the inputs and outputs can be = connected to "anything", pretty much needs to have a processor in the middle somewhere. Some of these use microcontrollers whose program (or at least whose "organ definition data" gets downloaded from some other computer, while others use a "large" computer for everything.   The more you need (or want!) to change the organ's specification, the more advantageous it is to have a system of the second type.   The Z-tronics stuff (with which I'm most familiar) is sort of a combination. The "relay" portion (stops, couplers, unification, etc.) is = a hard-wired multiplex system without a processor. You set the = specification by soldering wires between appropriate points, one wire per stop or coupler. The combination action, though, is more of the second type, except that its microcontrollers get their "organ definition data" by actions performed by the installer (or even the organist) without use of any other computer devices. That makes it easier to re-configure the pistons, should that prove necessary (or desirable).   What approach is best? Who knows!?!   Larry Chace              
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Switching From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:31:57 EDT     --part1_c8.2d3571c2.2abe3f4d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 9/21/2002 4:33:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, RLC1@etnainstruments.com writes:     > The Z-tronics stuff (with which I'm most familiar) is sort of a > combination. The "relay" portion (stops, couplers, unification, etc.) = is a > hard-wired multiplex system without a processor. You set the = specification > by soldering wires between appropriate points, one wire per stop or > coupler. The combination action, though, is more of the second type, > except that its microcontrollers get their "organ definition data" by > actions performed by the installer (or even the organist) without use of > any other computer devices. That makes it easier to re-configure the > pistons, should that prove necessary (or desirable). > > What approach is best? Who knows!?! >   I've tried to find Z-tronics website. When I'm searching, I'm taken to documents that mention Z-tronics. Any hyperlink I find to Z-tronics is a dead end. Do they have a website?   Personally, I like the idea of the hardwired system. Most of my organ is straight - only 2 of 10 ranks unified. I like to see a card (like Syndyne =   has) that's specifically for keyboard input, another that's a pipe driver, =   another that drives the stop tab magnets, etc. Having only "inputs" and "outputs" on the box while the various relationships and definitions are mapped out via computer is just too soft for me. I can see the advantage = for those whose organs are totally DE and for whom experimenting with = duplexing and unification would be required.   Regarding the combination action, my old Austin console has the mechanical =   pistons (hold button in while setting tabs to set) and the couplers are switched from within the console. I'm not certain how easy all this is = going to be to clean up. Nevertheless, I'm looking for a switching system that will work with my organ whether or not I utilize it [new system] for = coupling and combination action of not.   Before I get too worried about all this, there's a good possibility that = my old switch panels might work fine after rewiring!   Thanks, Keith   --part1_c8.2d3571c2.2abe3f4d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/21/2002 4:33:11 PM Eastern = Standard Time, RLC1@etnainstruments.com writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The Z-tronics = stuff (with which I'm most familiar) is sort of a<BR> combination.&nbsp; The "relay" portion (stops, couplers, unification, = etc.) is a<BR> hard-wired multiplex system without a processor.&nbsp; You set the = specification<BR> by soldering wires between appropriate points, one wire per stop or<BR> coupler.&nbsp; The combination action, though, is more of the second = type,<BR> except that its microcontrollers get their "organ definition data" by<BR> actions performed by the installer (or even the organist) without use = of<BR> any other computer devices.&nbsp; That makes it easier to re-configure = the<BR> pistons, should that prove necessary (or desirable).<BR> <BR> What approach is best?&nbsp; Who knows!?!<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> I've tried to find Z-tronics website.&nbsp; When I'm searching, I'm taken = to documents that mention Z-tronics.&nbsp; Any hyperlink I find to = Z-tronics is a dead end.&nbsp; Do they have a website?<BR> <BR> Personally, I like the idea of the hardwired system.&nbsp; Most of my = organ is straight - only 2 of 10 ranks unified.&nbsp; I like to see a card = (like Syndyne has) that's specifically for keyboard input, another that's = a pipe driver, another that drives the stop tab magnets, etc.&nbsp; Having = only "inputs" and "outputs" on the box while the various relationships and = definitions are mapped out via computer is just too soft for me.&nbsp; I can see the advantage for those whose organs are totally DE and = for whom experimenting with duplexing and unification would be = required.<BR> <BR> Regarding the combination action, my old Austin console has the mechanical = pistons (hold button in while setting tabs to set) and the couplers are = switched from within the console.&nbsp; I'm not certain how easy all this = is going to be to clean up.&nbsp; Nevertheless, I'm looking for a = switching system that will work with my organ whether or not I utilize it = [new system] for coupling and combination action of not.<BR> <BR> Before I get too worried about all this, there's a good possibility that = my old switch panels might work fine after rewiring!<BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Keith</FONT></HTML>   --part1_c8.2d3571c2.2abe3f4d_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Switching From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 18:32:04 -0400   Keith asked about the URL for Z-tronics. Due to the purchase of one ISP = by another, the address is now:   http://www.z-tronics.com   (*My* web site still has the old URL. Blush!!!)   Larry Chace