DIYAPASON-L Digest #742 - Wednesday, February 5, 2003
Re: wood carving tools
  by <>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Re: Remote Blower control
  by "atos" <>
Blower remote control
  by "Robert W. Taylor" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Remote Blower control
  by "Bob Loesch" <>
  by "David Scribner" <>
RE: Divisional Blower
  by "STEVE PITTS" <>
Blower remote control
  by <>
Re: Remote Blower control
  by "David O. Doerschuk" <>

(back) Subject: Re: wood carving tools From: <> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 02:08:32 EST     --part1_1ce.18f6b5b.2b70c0f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Greetings Will:   Harbor Freight Tools has three very inexpensive but usable sets for $4.99 = to $9.99. Go on line to < > and scope out the on line catalgue.   Have fun,   Al Sefl Who's head was carved from one solid block...     --part1_1ce.18f6b5b.2b70c0f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Greetings Will: <BR> <BR>Harbor Freight Tools has three very inexpensive but usable sets for = $4.9=3D 9 to $9.99. &nbsp;Go on line to &lt; &gt; and scope = ou=3D t the on line catalgue. <BR> <BR>Have fun, <BR> <BR>Al Sefl <BR>Who's head was carved from one solid block... <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_1ce.18f6b5b.2b70c0f0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Re: Remote Blower control From: "atos" <> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 06:44:09 -0600   Standard Allen Bradley type start-stop pushbutton stations can be wired to where multiple button stations can control the same contactor. If you need = a diagram, mail me privately. I would hesitate to do anything critical with X-10's. We used them to control all of the lighting in a certain church. = The church is located along the Mississippi River and the signals from passing ships would trigger lights on a regular basis. We finally removed all of = the X-10's and reworked the job with a standard building automation type computer system. I definitely would bot recommend X-10 technology where either safety or the potential to consume large amounts of power are an issue.   -----Original Message----- From: []On Behalf Of Tim Bovard Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 10:58 PM To: Residence Organ List Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Remote Blower control     At 10:00 PM 2/3/2003 -0600, David wrote: >Depending on the size of the blower, etc an electrician might be able to wire in or adapt an X-10 >system to turn things on and off.   It's not the size of the load (i.e. the blower, or the dust collector itself) that determines this -- rather, it is the size and type of *contactor relay* which supplies power to that load. Any blower which = runs via a contactor relay should be able to have multiple stop/start stations, up to and including a wireless remote control such as X-10.   Personally, I don't think I'd want my home organ blower controlled by wireless remote...and I know I don't care for having the shop dust collector triggered that way. (Seems as though ever since we got that thing rigged into the dust collector, it occasionally just starts up by itself, without anyone having pushed a button...god only knows what stray signals it is picking up, or from where...!)   Tim (who takes pride in the way he runs wires, BTW. The world has too damn many remote controls. <g>)     DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own Residence Pipe Organs. HOMEPAGE : List: Administration:        
(back) Subject: Blower remote control From: "Robert W. Taylor" <> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:50:25 -0600   As always, my initial post on this was too scant. My British Organ Blower depends on an external start relay that controls the start sequence. The = 2 HP 220 volt motor has no internal switching.   When motor control start button is pushed, the first of two oil bath = relays closes. The start winding and two motor windings in series are powered. Through a dash pot arrangement, after about 4 seconds (the time is adjustable), the second relay engages, turning off the start winding, and placing the two motor windings in parallel. The relays are both 220v. = This sequence produces a nice slow start. Any power interruption will cause = the blower to stop and not restart until the start relay is physically reactivated.   I wish to have an external relay near this starting relay. The external relay will control the 220v starting relay, but will be low voltage. The oil bath master start relay push buttons have a lock out feature, so that any remote controls are disabled until the fully depressed stop button is physically released at the relay.   I wish to have at least three remote low voltage switch locations. Each location would have three wires, so that the each remote start relay = would be capable of breaking the remote series circuit, thus stopping the = blower. The blower is located in a sound proof basement room, and remote control is really necessary.   Bob Taylor      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Remote Blower control From: "Bob Loesch" <> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:06:25 -0800   I'm with Tim on this one. I remember my uncle, a HAM (K0BST), who used to key his 2-metre mobile and just spin the dial and watch all of the garage-doors on his street open. This was, of course, in the early days = of 'remote', when analog signals were used. Still, the idea of a remote = start on the blower would cause me some concern.     At 10:58 PM 2/3/03 -0600, Tim Bovard wrote: >Personally, I don't think I'd want my home organ blower controlled by >wireless remote...and I know I don't care for having the shop dust >collector triggered that way. (Seems as though ever since we got that >thing rigged into the dust collector, it occasionally just starts up by >itself, without anyone having pushed a button...god only knows what stray =   >signals it is picking up, or from where...!)     Regards, Bob, in beautiful Lake County, California, USA   "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep." Scott Adams, "The Dilbert Principle".      
(back) Subject: ADMINISTRATIVE - SORRY! From: "David Scribner" <> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:10:30 -0600   For some reason last night the list server decided to start acting up and kept quitting. I had some dental work done yesterday and last night was a bit "out of it" so i didn't catch the problem until this morning. After numerous retries to get the server going before leaving for work I realized that it was time to upgrade to the new Beta version. Tonight once I came home I did download and set up the new version and hopefully there will not be any problems from here on in.   i am going to warn everyone that there "might" be a possibility of something acting "strange" with this version however, I have been running some secondary lists on this new Beta version and so far haven't had any problems with it.   If you sent a message to the list in the last 24 hours please don't resend it right away. There is a back-up mail server that will catch messages that can't make it to the list server and once that back-up server realizes that the list server is up and running again it will start to forward those messages that it is holding to the list. If you dont' see something you sent by this time tomorrow evening then by all means send it again. However, if your message bounced back to you then by all means please resend it.   Sorry for the problems and sorry I didn't catch them as soon as I should = have.   David -- ********************************************************* David Scribner, Owner DIYAPASON-L - a mailing list for the owners/builders of their own home pipe organ  
(back) Subject: RE: Divisional Blower From: "STEVE PITTS" <> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:04:21 -0600     list: MC NEELY ORGAN CO in Connecticut has a 1/2 HP Spencer blower for sale. I = need a divisional blower for my 6 rank Swell division and have thought = about purchasing the Spencer. I live in Tennessee. Does anyone have any = experience with shipping large heavy items like that? My guess is that it = would cost more than they want for the blower to ship it. Also, if anyone = on the list knows of something similar available in the Southeast, let me = know. I need about 400 cfm at 5" static.   Steve Pitts Ardmore Tennessee  
(back) Subject: Blower remote control From: <> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 21:01:42 -0600   Bob Taylor asked about remote control for the blower.I imagine the coil on the motor contactor you have wants 110 or 220 VAC so it will need = something to make the transition to low voltage control. Peterson lists a Console AC control system in their catalog which is designed to control all the AC needs of an organ. Looks like the accessories needed to operate a blower/rectifier contactor system are included. I do not know the cost of the system but judging from what's included in it, I'd guess a couple of hundred or a bit more. It might be "adaptable" to more than one switch control position (console and chambers) but does not appear to have been intended for that type of operation.   I think the use of X-10 is possible. When I built my house, X-10 was installed for all lighting control. I used two kinds of controllers. One was the Leviton series with (mostly) Chinese manufactured components. Its performance has been less than stellar. The other was a USA product by PCS which has been very good. The cost of the PCS stuff is a bunch more, however. There is a PCS X-10 controlled switch that could be used to control the blower/rectifier contactors.It is the non-dimming type = intended for control of flourescent lights and other inductive loads. With the = right components, you could have control with both wireless and wired (to the house AC) remote switches. One caution however, for reliability,the power lines in the house need to be relatively noise-free and the controller (remote switch equipment) and the receiver (X-10 switch on the contactor) should be on the same phase or side of the house incoming 220 to avoid having to use an interphase amplifier/coupler. No problem with the amp/coupler but it just raises the cost and may have to be installed by licensed electrician for local codes. I do not know of any X-10 switch which I would use for direct blower control. Some do have the ratings for = a smaller blower, but lack the thermal overload protection of a real motor controller/contactor. The non-dimming X-10 switch would be fine for control of the controller/contactor coil. I'd put a 3 or so amp fuse in line with the X-10 switch as well for protection.   Being an electrical engineer/tinkerer, I'm inclined to get a handful of parts and build a remote control relay for the contactors. It's a simple circuit and can be equipped with remote indicators for wind/no wind etc.if you want to get fancy. This is the plan I have for my organ --if I ever = get the regulator re-leathered, chamber built, room finished, and so on !   Bob, since you an I are in neighboring towns, I'd be happy to take a look at what you've got see what's possible if you wish. Email me privately if interested. ( )   Really enjoy the info on the list even though I don't comment very often. You folks are probably grateful for that seeing the preceeding "novel".   Happy DIY'ing   Lloyd Collins                    
(back) Subject: Re: Remote Blower control From: "David O. Doerschuk" <> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 20:55:27 -0600   Hi folks!   On the recent Remote Blower Control thread, I wanted to add several cents:   1. If you need a new magnetic starter, a very inexpensive place to buy = one is IMHO, the finest full-voltage starters in = the world are made by Allen-Bradley, but you pay like the dickens unless you snag a used one off eBay or whereever. Keep in mind that used starters = are unlikely to have the heaters installed for your motor's rating, so you'll have to pop in new ones.   2. If you've got a starter with remote pushbutton wiring, you can install multiple (n) pushbutton stations by using the following circuit. All "Start" pushbuttons are Normally Open (shelf state is non-conducting), all "Stop" pushbuttons are Normally Closed (shelf state is conducting). I = tried to do an Obnoxious ASCII Drawing (tm), but it was too hard. The essence = is that 3 wires are run between each pushbutton station. All the Start pushbuttons are in parallel with each other and the Normally Open aux contact on the contactor. All the Stop pushbuttons are in series. For current to flow to the contactor's coil, all the Stop pushbuttons always have to be "non-pushed", (closed, since they're Normally Closed), and only one of the Start pushbuttons has to be momentarily pressed. Once the coil pulls in, the aux contact shorts across the Start pushbutton circuit, and the contactor will stay pulled in until either a Stop pushbutton is = pressed (breaking the circuit), or the heater overload opens. There are no race conditions in the circuit: all the Start pushbuttons have equivalent priority, and any Stop pushbutton and the heater overload all have higher priority than any Start pushbutton. At least, that's how the computer = folks think about it! :-)   3. The coil of the starter determines the voltage on the remote start circuit. They are commonly available in 24 VDC, and 120 VAC.   4. Many blower motors are very old designs and I am not familiar with = them, but for ordinary squirrel-cage 3 phase induction motors the starting = inrush current is typically 6 to 8 times the Full Load Amperage (FLA) stated on = the nameplate of the motor. Additionally, blowers start under a high mechanical load (the fan), which makes the inrush situation worse. This = is part of the reason mag starters are used on induction motors; when = properly sized they'll tolerate the inrush current without tripping.   5. Don't even think about using a ordinary (non-short-circuit-protected) starter without also installing a circuit breaker.   6. Variable frequency drives were mentioned as a way of achieving a soft start. I agree, and they can be had quite cheaply on the used market. In addition, many of the smaller VFDs can be powered off a single phase = circuit (e.g. residential 120 or 240 VAC) and produce a very nice 3 phase output. Much cleaner than almost any rotary or static phase converter, a VFD's dynamic response to load changes is very good, and typically its output voltages are much better balanced. A used VFD is a Cadillac way to roll 3 phase power when the electric company won't give it to you (small-minded = of them!)   7. Please don't burn down your house. If you're not comfy with the = things I've written about here; if you think the NEC is a big Japanese company, = if you sincerely believe heater ratings are always in BTUs, if you've wired = the power circuit for the blower to a great big wall switch in the organ console, then please, I'm beggin' here, call an electrician. You don't = need a snotty electrical engineer; just a few hours of an electrician's time. = If you burn down the house, and the insurance company finds your incorrectly-specified-and-wired-blower-and-starter, they'll give you the bird.   All the best to everyone!   Dave Doerschuk