DIYAPASON-L Digest #746 - Sunday, February 9, 2003
 
Re: Keith Zimmer's Blower Motor
  by "David O. Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@att.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Phase Question
  by "W. D. Heimer" <dheimer@sensible.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Phase Question oops
  by "W. D. Heimer" <dheimer@sensible.net>
[Residence Organs]  Re: Variable frequency drives
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Little experiment
  by <Kzimmer0817@aol.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Little experiment
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Keith Zimmer's Blower Motor From: "David O. Doerschuk" <d.doerschuk@att.net> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 01:09:27 -0600   Keith Zimmer is doing a restoration on his blower, and has some questions:   > Some of the panels appear to be brown. Is that the primer? Sorry, don't know. Most old metal primers that I've seen were clay-red, = and contained lead. Usually a very dark, muddy brown is actually rust, even = if it doesn't feel rough to the touch. It can be taken off with an abrasive blaster, or a wire wheel on an angle grinder. Wear a good dust mask.   > Now, I plan to move the parts into the playroom where it is heated. I will > paint everything with semigloss Rust-o-leum unless y'all have a better idea. > I plan to clean the impellers by hand.   On a bare-metal 1) Paint on Ospho, a phosphoric acid with binders, available at a = hardware store. Let it dry overnight. Any rust will be converted to an inert material; great stuff. 2) Rust-o-leum claims to need no primer. I've never liked that. Call me type-A, but I like to put on a good quality, high solids, primer; you'll need about a quart. I'm assuming you're brushing, not spraying: don't let the paint store sell you anything with a hot solvent like xylene in it, they're very difficult to brush on because they dry incredibly fast and = are insanely toxic. Tell them you're brushing it on indoors, and make the guy behind the counter sweat a little. 3) At the same time, pick a snappy finish color and bring home a quart. Semi-gloss enamel is pretty darn good for electric motors; there's really not much additional bang for spending the bucks and inconvenience for a two-part catalyzed urethane, which are very toxic, and usually intended = for spraying. In a spray booth. With a positive ventilation helmet on. :-)   > I hope to take my motor to a repair shop next week to get it cleaned and > whatever else done to it that one does to old motors.   Unless the motor is actually broken and needs repair, the shop can really only do three things: 1) test the resistance through to ground of all three stator windings (1 per phase), one at a time. This is not done with an ordinary ohmmeter, = but rather a device generically called a "Megger" (actually a brand = trademark). A megger works exactly like an ordinary omhmeter, but instead of using a test voltage of a few volts, it uses a selectable test voltage ranging = from 50 VDC to 5,000 VDC, and sometimes more. For your size motor, the shop should not use over 500 VDC. The idea behind the high voltage is that it will find any "holes" and "weak spots" in the winding insulation and have sufficient emf to arc through to ground. As a rule of thumb, each winding measured to ground should have at least 1 megaohm of resistance per horsepower. If your motor doesn't pass the megger test, it's on to step 2 to try and fix it. Many people go to step 2 anyway, because they've got = the motor apart and figure "why not?" 2) The insulation used on the windings of your motor's stator is actually just varnish. The motor shop will either spray on new insulating varnish, or better, do a pressurized flood of the windings with liquid varnish. = This works better than just spraying. After the varnish dries, they will re-megger the motor. Hopefully, it's OK. 3) The last thing they'll do is check the bearings. I know your motor is pretty old, but most 2 hp 3 phase motors are going to have ball or *maybe* needle bearings, not sleeves or babbitt. The probability of sleeves or babbitt grows with the age of the motor. Here's a quick reference on what I'd do for each type: 3a) Sleeves: If there is anything more than slight wear, I replace them. 3b) Babbitt: If they're good, leave them alone. If they're loose, hopefully the motor shop knows how to repour them. If they don't, and you can't find someone that does, I can point you towards an inexpensive book that will tell you how. It's one of life's cheap thrills, you'll like it! :-) 3c) Balls (or needles): Many people will not agree with this, but this = is what I do: If the bearing is even slightly rough, or is over 30 years = old, I replace them out of hand. Also, I replace them with sealed (not shielded) bearings, and remove any external zerk fittings or other greasing fittings and plug them with the appropriate size bolt.   > Anyway, I have had a professional coming thru town as well as another amateur > (who actually put his meter to it) look at the motor and tell me that it is > definitely a 3-phase motor.   On the motor's nameplate should be some inscription like "3 PH" or "3 = phase" or "Ph: 3".   > The friend checked with a couple other "old organ friends" of Dr. Doty = who > said that he had hooked this all up himself after removing it from the > church. Nobody remembers any kind of phase converter. They are theorizing > that he ran the blower on single-phase power.   You can do this with capacitors, but you're limited to about 3/4 of the motor's nameplate power.   > After having to get my 3-phase motor cleaned and > reconditioned, purchasing a phase converter, plus whatever else is = needed, > why not just buy a single-phase motor? Sounds like an honest question.   Pretty good idea, really. If you wanted to run several machines on 3 = phase, a converter might make more sense. For one motor, and only 2 horsepower, = it will cost you less to buy a new 1-phase motor.   If you decide you want to go this route, get the "Frame Number" off the motor's nameplate. It may be abbreviated "FR:". Call some of the motor supply people on the internet and tell them you want this frame number in = a single-phase, 220 VAC, 2 horsepower motor. If you can't find one, then = that will be the cue to start rebuilding the old 3-phase motor.   > One consideration that I do remember is the length of the shaft. It's hard > to find new motors with the long shaft.   A machinist can fix you up with a coupling that will join the old shaft to the new one. A match on the frame number should yield the right size = shaft.   I'm sorry, but it's very late and I'm fading fast. I hope I've helped!   All the best to everyone,   David      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Phase Question From: "W. D. Heimer" <dheimer@sensible.net> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 11:18:54 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_001F_01C2D02D.07BC93A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Kzimmer0817@aol.com=3D20 To: diyapason-l@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:42 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Phase Question     Yo' Keith & List   That old motor on your blower is built like a tank. One of the =3D endearing qualities of a three phase motor in that there is only one =3D moving part, the rotor. Single phase motors usually require a yoke =3D system that moves by centrifigal force during the starting phase. Your = =3D motor simply locks onto the same rotating magnetic field that power was = =3D generated.   A polyphase motor can be run on single phase power several ways.... = =3D You can start it "by hand" and run it in a single phase mode, this is a = =3D major PIA and not good for the motor. One can use capicitors to "fake" = =3D a third phase,(this is what a static converter consists of) or use a =3D rotery converter. This is the most efficient method, but it is also =3D one of the more expensive methods and would be overkill for your =3D application. The Enco cataloge that I received this week lists a =3D Phase-a-Matic static 'verter for a 1 - 3 HP moter for $91.95 =3D (BD297-3530. The equivilent rotary converter for a 2 HP lists for =3D $496.00 (BD279-3802). One can also use a multi frequency drive, but =3D they are also an expensive overrkill, but usefull if you have a voltage = =3D drop situation.   To wire this to your motor you would place a two pole safety switch =3D between the power source and the 'verter and a three phase starter =3D between the safety switch and the motor. I can probably give you a hand = =3D with this.   Happy Organating, Dave = =3D Heimer   ------=3D_NextPart_000_001F_01C2D02D.07BC93A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = =3D 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A href=3D3D"mailto:Kzimmer0817@aol.com"=3D20 title=3D3DKzimmer0817@aol.com>Kzimmer0817@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:diyapason-l@pipechat.org"=3D20 title=3D3Ddiyapason-l@pipechat.org>diyapason-l@pipechat.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 08, = =3D 2003 10:42=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] =3D Phase=3D20 Question</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Yo' Keith &amp; List</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>That old motor on your blower is = =3D built like a=3D20 tank.&nbsp; One of the endearing qualities of a three phase motor in =3D that=3D20 there is only one moving part, the rotor.&nbsp; Single phase motors =3D usually=3D20 require a yoke system that moves by centrifigal force during the =3D starting=3D20 phase.&nbsp; Your motor simply locks onto the same rotating magnetic =3D field=3D20 that power was generated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>A polyphase motor can be run on =3D single phase=3D20 power several ways....&nbsp;&nbsp; You can start it "by hand" and run = =3D it in a=3D20 single phase mode, this is a major PIA and not good for the =3D motor.&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 One can use capicitors to "fake" a third phase,(this is what a = static=3D20 converter consists of) or use a rotery converter.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is = =3D the most=3D20 efficient method, but it is also&nbsp;one of the more expensive =3D methods and=3D20 would be overkill for your application.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Enco cataloge = =3D that I=3D20 received this week lists a Phase-a-Matic static 'verter for a 1 - 3 HP = =3D moter=3D20 for $91.95 (BD297-3530.&nbsp; The equivilent rotary converter for a 2 = =3D HP lists=3D20 for&nbsp;$496.00 (BD279-3802).&nbsp; One can also use a multi =3D frequency drive,=3D20 but they are also an expensive overrkill, but usefull if you have a =3D voltage=3D20 drop situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>To wire this to your motor you = would =3D place a two=3D20 pole safety switch between the power source and the 'verter and a =3D three phase=3D20 starter between the safety switch and the motor.&nbsp; I can probably = =3D give you=3D20 a hand with this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D   &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Happy Organating, Dave=3D20 Heimer</DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_001F_01C2D02D.07BC93A0--    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Phase Question oops From: "W. D. Heimer" <dheimer@sensible.net> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 14:46:39 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2D04A.0DE27F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: W. D. Heimer=3D20 To: Residence Organ List=3D20 Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Phase Question       ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: Kzimmer0817@aol.com=3D20 To: diyapason-l@pipechat.org=3D20 Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 10:42 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Phase Question     Oops, My bad. Ment to say between the CONVERTER and the motor   Mea Culpa, Dave Heimer   the power source and the 'verter and a three phase starter between =3D the safety switch and the motor =3D20 =3D20   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2D04A.0DE27F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = =3D 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A href=3D3D"mailto:dheimer@sensible.net" =3D title=3D3Ddheimer@sensible.net>W. D.=3D20 Heimer</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org"=3D20 title=3D3DDIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org>Residence Organ List</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 09, 2003 = =3D 11:18=3D20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Residence Organs] = =3D Phase=3D20 Question</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A href=3D3D"mailto:Kzimmer0817@aol.com"=3D20 title=3D3DKzimmer0817@aol.com>Kzimmer0817@aol.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:diyapason-l@pipechat.org"=3D20 title=3D3Ddiyapason-l@pipechat.org>diyapason-l@pipechat.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 08, = =3D 2003 10:42=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Residence Organs] = =3D Phase=3D20 Question</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Oops, My bad.&nbsp; Ment to say = =3D between the=3D20 CONVERTER and the motor</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mea Culpa, = =3D Dave=3D20 Heimer</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>the power source and the 'verter = =3D and a three=3D20 phase starter between the safety switch and the motor</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=3D20 =3D size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= =3D p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp= =3D ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = =3D   </DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C2D04A.0DE27F20--    
(back) Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Variable frequency drives From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 15:21:02 -0500   The recent note about needing a 3-phase motor starter reminded me that, as I understand it, with a variable frequency drive you do not need (and in fact can't use) the 3-phase motor starter. The drive performs the starter functions and the over-current protection.   When comparing prices, be sure to include (or exclude) all of the required components!   Larry Chace      
(back) Subject: Little experiment From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 16:19:41 EST     --part1_1d0.223b300.2b781fed_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   DIYers,   As I was bringing inside the parts of my blower that I had let sit outside =   last night after their National Pride off-spraying, I saw my lowest Oboe = pipe (8' CC) standing in the corner along with the few longest Viols and = Aeolines that wouldn't fit into the pipe trays. I realize that you're not supposed = to blow into reed pipes, but I did, anyway. Sorry, I just couldn't help = myself. Anyway, nothing happened.   I decided to try a little self-repair job that was so graciously = demonstrated to me by Jon Bertsinger as he was coming thru town.....   The boot section on this large pipe separated easily from the resonator (there being a junction after the first appr 6" of resonator). I removed = the boot cover, got the tuning wire out of the way. Removed the wedge, reed, = and shallot. Inside the shallot were two large dried up flies - like large horseflies. I picked out their remains, shined up the shallot with some = very fine steel wool, very gently rubbed the reed, and put it all back = together. Now when I blow into it, it does play a note, kind of like an elephant = fart. Of course, it's kinda chilly in the basement, so, after a few blows, I = felt the inside and it was getting condensation, so I decided to quit. Anyway, = it makes sound now.   Dave Heimer - who posts on this list - lives about 90 minutes from me. = Since he's offered, I will probably bribe him to help me hook up the blower = (after I purchase the proper parts). If you hear that my house burned down, you = can blame him.....   Anyway, I hope to be much closer to making wind next time I post = something.   Keith Zimmerman   --part1_1d0.223b300.2b781fed_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">DIYers,<BR> <BR> As I was bringing inside the parts of my blower that I had let sit outside = l=3D ast night after their National Pride off-spraying, I saw my lowest Oboe = pipe=3D (8' CC) standing in the corner along with the few longest Viols and = Aeoline=3D s that wouldn't fit into the pipe trays.&nbsp; I realize that you're not = sup=3D posed to blow into reed pipes, but I did, anyway.&nbsp; Sorry, I just = couldn=3D 't help myself.&nbsp; Anyway, nothing happened.<BR> <BR> I decided to try a little self-repair job that was so graciously = demonstrate=3D d to me by Jon Bertsinger as he was coming thru town.....<BR> <BR> The boot section on this large pipe separated easily from the resonator = (the=3D re being a junction after the first appr 6" of resonator).&nbsp; I removed = t=3D he boot cover, got the tuning wire out of the way.&nbsp; Removed the = wedge,=3D20=3D reed, and shallot.&nbsp; Inside the shallot were two large dried up flies = -=3D20=3D like large horseflies.&nbsp; I picked out their remains, shined up the = shall=3D ot with some very fine steel wool, very gently rubbed the reed, and put it = a=3D ll back together.&nbsp; Now when I blow into it, it does play a note, kind = o=3D f like an elephant fart.&nbsp; Of course, it's kinda chilly in the = basement,=3D so, after a few blows, I felt the inside and it was getting condensation, = s=3D o I decided to quit.&nbsp; Anyway, it makes sound now.<BR> <BR> Dave Heimer - who posts on this list - lives about 90 minutes from = me.&nbsp;=3D Since he's offered, I will probably bribe him to help me hook up the = blower=3D (after I purchase the proper parts). If you hear that my house burned = down,=3D you can blame him.....<BR> <BR> Anyway, I hope to be much closer to making wind next time I post = something.<=3D BR> <BR> Keith Zimmerman</FONT></HTML>   --part1_1d0.223b300.2b781fed_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Little experiment From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 20:46:07 -0600   At 4:19 PM -0500 02/09/03, Kzimmer0817@aol.com wrote: >The boot section on this large pipe separated easily from the >resonator (there being a junction after the first appr 6" of >resonator). I removed the boot cover, got the tuning wire out of >the way. Removed the wedge, reed, and shallot. Inside the shallot >were two large dried up flies - like large horseflies. I picked out >their remains, shined up the shallot with some very fine steel wool, >very gently rubbed the reed, and put it all back together.   Keith   If you want to "polish" the shallot face you really need to use some "crocus" (sp?) paper with it resting on something very flat, like a piece of glass and then rub the shallot on that. Even fine steel wool is enough to scratch the shallot face. Also make sure that you position the reed correctly before tightening the wedge when putting it all back together.   David