DIYAPASON-L Digest #722 - Friday, January 10, 2003
3r Wicks for sale on eBay
  by "Tim Bovard" <>
Toe holes
  by "Robert W. Taylor" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Residence Swell Box Construction
  by "Larry Chace" <>
EM vs electric slider
  by "Richard Moyer" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  EM vs electric slider
  by "Larry Chace" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Swell Chamber Construction
  by "Peter Schmuckal" <>
Re: Swell Chamber Construction
  by "Larry Chace" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  EM vs electric slider
  by "John Vanderlee" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: Swell Chamber Construction
  by "Peter Schmuckal" <>
Re: Re: Swell Chamber Construction
  by "Larry Chace" <>

(back) Subject: 3r Wicks for sale on eBay From: "Tim Bovard" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:01:19 -0600   Greetings DIY'ers!   Heads up to any that might be interested -- the following link takes you = to a really clean looking little Wicks cabinet organ from the 40's, complete with chimes and reed-box bass for the bottom of the 16'. Opening bid: = $5900.   I wish I was closer to Ohio (and/or that I had a bit more 'disposable income' at the moment...) ;-) ;-)   <eBay item 936004127 (Ends Jan-13-03 15:00:00 PST ) - WICKS op.2505 RESIDENCE/CHURCH PIPE ORGAN>   Regards,   Tim Bovard Little Rock AR    
(back) Subject: Toe holes From: "Robert W. Taylor" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:35:14 -0600   Happy New Year to all,   About a month ago I asked the list for help on keeping the toe holes free of paint when the boards are painted. I have an Aeolian which is painted mustard yellow. It is impossible to paint the boards properly without getting paint into the toe holes.   Some listers suggested various ways to mask the holes to prevent paint = from invading that area. One look at the five rank mixture, and its 305 holes, made the decision easy. No masking for me!   Since this is an old organ that has been worked on by many, I decided the toe holes needed more than just masking. They needed to be dressed up again. I had a local tool and die maker fabricate a burnishing tool and fully explained to him how it was to be used. He decided to use "D2" = steel and heat treat it for hardness.   Made from about 2 inch stock, he determined the correct angle by measuring the toe board I took him. The tool will chuck into my bench drill press, and with the long auxiliary table I made, the toe boards can easily be positioned under the tool.   The results are fantastic. The burnisher cleans out the paint and leaves = a black shiny toe hole that is true. The $85 was well spent. I only have another 1200 holes to burnish and I'll be finished! Hurrah!   Bob Taylor      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Residence Swell Box Construction From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 10:50:26 -0500   "Peter Schmuckal" <> asked for suggestions about finishing his organ chamber room. I'd certainly recommend applying a second layer of plasterboard, glueing it to the first layer by rolling on = a 50% diluted solution of white glue (Elmer's, Titebond, etc.). That will convert the two layers into one, which will be much stiffer and will therefore not flex, absorbing low frequency sounds from the bass pipes. The surface of the plasterboard should be painted with several coats of enamel (latex is ok) so as to get a nice smooth hard surface to avoid absorbing the high frequencies. It'd at least paint the plywood wall, but if it is rough, I'd be tempted to glue (and screw) a layer of = plasterboard. If the resulting room is too "live", then you an always hang up a few old ugly carpets or install some rugs, as I've seen in the chambers of the theatre organ at the Shanklin Conference Center in Massachusetts.   It's probably too late, but I would have made the walls framing with studs that do *not* go all the way from one wall surface to the other. That is, I'd make sure there was no physical connection between the plasterboard that lines the chamber room and the plasterboard that forms the wall of = the adjoining rooms. Using 2*4 studs staggered on 2*6 top and bottom plates is one way to do this, or, probably better, 2*6 studs (at least for the chamber walls) staggered on 2*8 plates. Insulation can be fitted in that wall, and with no mechanical connection between the wall surfaces (except at the very top and bottom), there will be much less unwanted transmission of organ sound into the ajoining room.   The windows can be retro-fitted with covers (insulated) that attach to the trim. I have a basement window leading into my organ chamber (in the basement) and I made a "plug" for it. That is a wooden frame that just fits inside the window trim, filled with insulation and covered with thin plywood. It had handles so that it can be pulled out to gain access to = the actual window opening (for moving in those larger organ components that can't fit through the floor grates through which the organ speaks).   I'd probably wait on covering the floor until it is time to actually install organic material. A traditional floor frame (1*4s laying flat) is one choice, or you can simply lay down some plywood if you like. You can also put small pads on the bottom of the components, supports, or = whatever, and just let them sit right on the floor.   A 9' ceiling is very nice and will help avoid mitering of larger pipes. Depending upon which way the ceiling joists run and where you might place, say, a 16' Bourdon or an open 8' bottom octave, you *MIGHT* consider leaving open one or two joist spaces, perhaps wrapping the joists with plasterboard if the joists are ugly looking. Depending upon the joist depth that could give you some extra height for those longest pipes. I = did that to provide recesses for the fluorescent lights, so that they would = not hang down (very much) below the ceiling, which in my chambers is only = 7'2". If there is occupied space above the chamber (a bedroom?), then ideally = you should, again, have a structure that does not run "through". The ceiling joists for the chamber and the floor joists for the room above should be separate and the space between the chamber and floor should be insulated. Two layers of plasterboard on the ceiling would be desirable, again, to avoid absorption of bass frequencies.   You might also want to consider electrical connections into the chamber. As a "room", it needs to follow the Electric Code specifications for wall outlets, lighting, and switches. If your blower is going to be there, you might want to provide a 220v outlet, perhaps near a window, so that it could serve a window air conditioner should the next owners want to use = the organ chamber in some other fashion. You should think about the low-voltage wiring that will been needed for controlling the pipes and other organic entities. Even if you aren't sure at this point, you might be able to provide a box (double?) with an empty conduit running somewhere convenient. If there is a basement under the chamber, then that might be place where the low-voltage wiring can be run.   Since low-voltage wiring can be run inside the walls, I *assume* that it would be ok to run it inside something like the 1-1/2" thin-walled tubing that is used for built-in vacuum systems. That stuff has wall-mounted "outlets" and might be a way to provide routing for later low-voltage wiring. (You may or may not want to check on this!) Where you place the console will also have an important effect on this wiring, so it is difficult to say what approach is best. You don't want to have to raunch holes in the your nice new walls later on just so you can connect the console to the pipes! ;-)   All of this is really about building an *organ chamber* rather than building a *swell box*, which might well be a stand-alone item sitting in = a room (or even in a chamber). In general, though, you want to keep the sound inside the box (or chamber) so that the swell shades will have good effect. You also want to let the sound come out when the shades are opened, and so you don't want absorbant stuff inside the box or chamber.   Anyway, those are my ideas, most of which I *have* implemented in my residence organ project. (The floor is concrete, not hardwood, and the chamber is a self-contained basement, so transmission of sound through the walls is of no concern (except to any critter who might be living underground near the walls!).   You'll probably be shocked by how "live" the chamber is when finished but empty. Don't worry -- organ parts will provide some randomization of reflections as well as some absorption, and the shades will be able to do their job. You can always add absorption later, but you can't take it = away if it is built in!   Larry Chace        
(back) Subject: EM vs electric slider From: "Richard Moyer" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:34:41 -0600   I'm adding a few pipe ranks to an Allen MDS-36, and would appreciate the group's comments on the tradeoffs between electromechanical and electric slider chests. A rank novice, I'm leaning toward ES, but am open to = advice.   Do ES magnets have to be heftier and thus fail more? Recommendations for magnets and suppliers?   EM seems to be more complex electrically (power and control), while ES is more complex mechanically. Comments regarding overall benefit?   Can a tracker be converted effectively to ES? Any recommendations as to = what to look for in acquiring a used windchest?   Thanks much Richard Moyer St. Louis, MO             _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] EM vs electric slider From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:57:45 -0500   Richard Moyer <> asked about electric-pulldown slider chests. One type of magnet that is used for that purpose, built by Laukhuff in Germany and sold here in the USA by Organ Supply, is a 30-ohm "hefty, Hefty, HEFTY!" magnet. It costs nearly $30 each. You need to = have a suitably hefty (etc.) drive circuit for it, since it pulls nearly 1/2 = amp during the entire time that the note is being played, and that, in chords, *can* overload some driver circuits, burn out key contacts, and the like. These magnets are very solidly built and I'd see no reason why they should fail any quicker than any other electro-magnets.   (Several years ago, a local builder used new slider chests from Organ Supply in the rebuild of a small Estey pipe organ. I supplied him with = new solid-state coupler switches and high-current drivers that were designed = to operate those hefty, etc., magnets. I would assume that Organ Supply = might also have some similar drivers available or could recommend some.)   Those magnets are described as being suitable for new slider chests or for retro-fitting to older slider chests. In either case, you also need to provide a means for moving the sliders.   Electro-mechanical valve units, such as the Reisner "601" family, run = about $6 apiece and of course you need one for each pipe (or note of a mixture). The switching is perhaps simpler (at least it is different), and the current per magnet is less (about 1/6 amp).   If you are going to build your own chests, the electro-mechanical ones are typically simpler and easier to build (whether well or poorly!); slider chests are more of a challange. If you are going to buy your chests new, then ask the maker for a comparison. In addition to the electrical and mechanical aspects, there are also *musical* ones, or so they say! ;-)   Another approach to operating an older slider chest electrically is to install electro-pneumatic pull-down actions, in which a small electro-magnet operates a pneumatic motor that in turn pulls the pallet open. Again, ask the manufacturer.   Whatever the chest action is, you also need a way for the existing electronic organ to send appropriate signals to operate the add pipes' notes and stop actions. That may or may not be simple, depending upon = what the electronic's maker has already provided.   Larry Chace        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Swell Chamber Construction From: "Peter Schmuckal" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 12:03:51 -0800   Larry,   Thanks so much for responding to my query (as I hoped that you would).   I am planning on using my multiplex relay system so the electrician is wiring a single CAT5 cable from chamber to the console. Would a conduit still be a good idea in this case? The organ chamber room is adjacent to the stairs so I'm planning on putting the blower under the stairs and have wired 220 there as you suggested. The swell shades (which I've located) pretty much cover the entire wall between chamber and living room so I'm = not sure the framing suggestion you made would make much difference.   I will probably lay the 16' Bourdons horizontal and stick the tops into = the next room (under the stairs/blower room) as I don't think I can stand them up even with 9' ceilings.   I hadn't thought that the chamber could be "too live" as I thought that = was the idea. What is mean by that and why is it bad? I doubt that will be = an issue anyway since it is a small chamber and will probably be pretty = crammed with stuff when all is said and done.   One follow up: do you have any experience with the acoustical properties = of common wall insulation i.e. fiberglass, glass wool, etc..? What should go inside the interior walls?   Thanks,   - Peter Schmuckal     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Chace" <> To: "Residence Organ List" <> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 7:50 AM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Residence Swell Box Construction     > "Peter Schmuckal" <> asked for suggestions about > finishing his organ chamber room. ...    
(back) Subject: Re: Swell Chamber Construction From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 15:50:49 -0500   Hi, Peter. I'd probably provide a conduit from somewhere in the chamber = to somewhere near the console location, if only as a convenient way to pull the CAT5 cable later on. However, your mileage may vary!   Having the blower nearby (under the stairs) sounds like a good idea, as does putting the ends of the longest Bourdons there. In effect, it seems, you've provided a little extention to the chamber.   The wall construction techniques (staggered studs) are most appropriate = for the walls that separate the chamber from potential non-listening areas. The wall in front, with the shades, doesn't really need that, since you'll have sound on both sides of the way anyway.   I only mentioned the "too live" possibility since that was my own reaction to my chamber. You are right that, once the chamber is full of stuff, it will not be "too" live.   Fiberglass does help in sound-proofing interior walls, but if the studs = are in contact with both wall surfaces, then the deadening effect will be reduced compared to staggered studs. If you've already built the walls = but haven't yet hung the interior sheetrock (and done the wiring), you might consider adding new studs in the middle of each stud space, positioning = the stud so that its face toward the chamber interior extends, say, 1/2" in at direction. That will cost you only 1" in reduced chamber space, but it will break the mechanical connection between the two wall surfaces. Then stuff the resulting (8" wide!) spaces with fiberglass before rocking the interior (with two layers!). Your contractor might give you a funny look, but tell him it's just an change for him to practice toe-nailing (which will be simple if he uses a pneumatic nailer).   Again, all of this info is worth exactly what you've paid for it! ;-)   By the way, if you have scrap sheetrock, you can use it for the first layer, not even worrying about taping and spackling the joints since = you'll be glueing (and screwing) a second layer over it. I did that for my ceiling, using left-over strips about 1' wide and 8' long. I just screwed them up to the ceiling, abutting them and not worrying about gaps. (In fact, as I did that, I took other short scraps, applied glue to them, and then slid them up into the joist spaces on top of the just-installed 1' wide strips. The glue would then set up and bond them to the top of the first layer, making a total of 3 layers in some places. It was an easy = way to get rid of the scrap and it adds to the massiveness of the ceiling.) Then use full sheets, etc., to make the 2nd layer, taping and spackling it as usual. The dilute Elmer's glue goes on nicely with a paint roller and the result is that the 2nd layer sheets almost (!) hold themselves up!   I should add that my chamber has no access for 4' wide sheets of = sheetrock, so I had to pre-load the chamber with a pile of sheets *before* I finished installing the subfloor and finish floor in the dining room above the chamber. I therefore had to carefully calculate how many sheets I'd need for the walls and ceiling, and I had to work around the piles as I did the rocking. Since the chamber floor measures only 6' by 13', you can imagine how awkward it was with a 4' by 8' by 2' high pile in the middle!!!   Don't forget some means for controlling the 220v for the blower, unless = you don't mind walking over to a switchbox near the blower rather than switching it on from the console! This, too, might be a low-voltage = thing.   Happy constructing!   Larry        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] EM vs electric slider From: "John Vanderlee" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 16:49:51 -0800   >I'm adding a few pipe ranks to an Allen MDS-36, and would appreciate >the group's comments on the tradeoffs between electromechanical and >electric slider chests. A rank novice, I'm leaning toward ES, but am >open to advice. > >Do ES magnets have to be heftier and thus fail more? Recommendations >for magnets and suppliers? > >EM seems to be more complex electrically (power and control), while >ES is more complex mechanically. Comments regarding overall benefit? > >Can a tracker be converted effectively to ES? Any recommendations as >to what to look for in acquiring a used windchest? > >Thanks much >Richard Moyer >St. Louis, MO   That brings me to a question: some months ago i obtained parts of a home practice instrument. It actually cam from a well known organist. It had a 54 note compass - keyboard as well as a 3rank slider chest. WHY 54 notes? Incidentally it is for sale; uses one set of Reisner DE magnets. The sliders select the ranks.   John V  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: Swell Chamber Construction From: "Peter Schmuckal" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 14:40:58 -0800   Larry,   Well I asked the electrician to wire the special CAT5 cable already so I'm leaning against the conduit unless I'm missing something. I usually use = one pair to work a power relay box close to the blower (TBD).   The walls are already framed so the first staggered studs idea won't be easy, but I like your idea about putting new studs sticking out about = 1/2". Wouldn't it make more sense to put this "floating" wall exterior rather = than interior to the chamber? That way, the interior chamber walls are more solid (attached to the entire frame) and reflect better.   Someone somewhere also told me about some product/system where there is = some device/system which mechanically separates the studs from the sheetrock, = at least in terms of sound transmission - some sort of spring or suspended arrangement. This might make sense to do to the external walls. Again, I would worry about bass freq absorption if this is done to the chamber interior walls.   - Peter Schmuckal   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Chace" <> To: "Residence Organ List" <> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: [Residence Organs] Re: Swell Chamber Construction     > Hi, Peter. I'd probably provide a conduit from somewhere in the chamber to > somewhere near the console location, if only as a convenient way to pull > the CAT5 cable later on. ....    
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Swell Chamber Construction From: "Larry Chace" <> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 22:55:54 -0500   Peter asked a bit more about my suggestions regarding sound transmission through walls. When I mentioned adding new studs that extended say 1/2" beyond the existing ones (so that the two wall surfaces would not be joined), I forgot to mention that you'd also add a 1/2" thick piece to the edges of the top and bottom plates, so that there would be a compete structure for attaching this second wall surface. (Each wall surface = would therefore be backed by the "usual" type framing.) From that point of = view, there is no difference between the two wall surfaces. (Did that make any sense?!? ;-)   There are indeed systems that use metal rails or "resiliant metal clips" = to support one wall surface; they are attached to the studs and the wall = board is attached to them. The one book I have at hand on construction methods shows that the staggered stud method achieves a greated amount of acoustic independence than does the metal rail system. As Peter said, the chamber walls should *not* be the ones attached to the rails or clips but should = be attached to solid framing. The more massive the wall structure will allow less of the bass frequencies to be absorbed.   Here's an attempt to "draw" the staggered studs, as seen from above. "S" is a stud, "." is the 1/2" air space, "-" is a normal single layer of plasterboard, and "=3D=3D=3D" is a double layer of plasterboard. The = studs at the ends of the wall can run through to support both wall surfaces. (The following will look better, or less ugly, if you use a mono-spaced font.) <--16"--> ---------------------------- S . S . S . S S S S . S . S . S =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D <8"><--16"-->   (This is the chamber side)   Larry Chace