DIYAPASON-L Digest #769 - Thursday, March 13, 2003
Re: [Residence Organs]  On Purity. . .
  by "Gregory Rister" <>
Re: pipe spacing on windchest - question
electric contacts and trackers
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Re: pipe spacing on windchest - question
  by <>
Long Promised Fish Glue Response (WARNING: LONG!)
  by "Richard Schneider" <>

(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] On Purity. . . From: "Gregory Rister" <> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 22:33:23 -0800   <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG>(wondering when&nbsp;"purity" became = such a bad word. . .)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG>I hope that this doesn't set off the = eternal digital vs. pipe debate, because it really is such a pointless = endeavor, but I did want to say a few things in defense of, well, = "purity".&nbsp; </STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG>I also want to declare that but for the = existence of electronic organs, I would neither be an organist, nor would = I be employed in the profession of pipe organ-building.&nbsp; Electronic = organs were the seeds of these achievements, and they certainly have their = place in this musical world.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DRockwell><STRONG>On this list, we are celebrating and = exploring the wonders of installing pipe organs in our own homes.&nbsp; = The wicked joy of this, is that we are the masters of our fate, and we get = to call the shots and set the standards to which our instruments will come = into being.&nbsp;&nbsp;Back in the late sixties, my father and I built a = large electronic organ, to which we added&nbsp;12 highly unified ranks of = pipes.&nbsp; It&nbsp;certainly was one of the earlier pipe &amp; = electronic organ combinations, and it was quite successful, although not = without many, many faults.&nbsp;&nbsp;Although the electronic side of the = organ could stand on its own as an instrument, the pipe organ, without the = electronics, could not.&nbsp; And frankly, the pipes sounded quite a bit = better than the analog electronic stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp;</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>Now, many years later, I have = undertaken a new instrument, which is all pipe organ.&nbsp; I initially = intended to have what was essentially an "eight-foot" pipe organ, with = electronic pedal stops, to save space and get "more organ".&nbsp; Over = time, I rejected this as too much of a compromise.&nbsp; I found space for = the 16 foot stuff, and reduced the size of the dream instrument = accordingly.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>My point is that, in our situation, = installing pipe organs in our homes, we do frequently resort to = "artificial" sounds, be they digital or analog, because of space, winding = requirements, financial or&nbsp;other reasons.&nbsp; This is fine; these = are our creations, for ourselves.&nbsp; But in adding non-pipe components = to the instrument, we are making Compromises, in order to have as = much&nbsp;of what we really want as we can.&nbsp; Do the compromises = short-circuit the "purity" of the instrument?&nbsp; Of course they do, but = it's not important in our context.&nbsp; My old electronic/pipe = combination organ allegedly had 46 ranks of electronic stops; but that = wasn't true.&nbsp; It had only seven sets of generators.&nbsp; All those = stops were "virtual", and only 12 were really acoustic (and all pipe = organs are acoustic instruments).</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>The situation differs with a = professional organization which is promoting a specific instrument, in = this case, the pipe organ.&nbsp; The problem with making compromises in = this instance is that the compromise can blur the distinction between what = is intended to be promoted and what is actually being produced.&nbsp; If = an organization allows its membership to build combinations of pipe and = electronic tone sources, you may have a builder who adds a 32' extension = to a 50 rank pipe organ at one end of the scale, and a builder who makes a = 50-stop digital organ with two ranks of wind-blown pipes, at the other.&nbsp; So what is the organization promoting?&nbsp; An electronic = organ or a pipe organ?&nbsp; If the organization doesn't care, this is = fine, but certain organizations have the specific goal of promoting = genuine, acoustic instruments; pipe organs.&nbsp; There is absolutely = nothing wrong with this.&nbsp; </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>And frankly, if you're going to be a = member of such an organization (or any organization), you have to abide by = their rules and requirements for membership.&nbsp; If Mr. Collins = and&nbsp;others&nbsp; across the line, I'm sure they did so knowing that = they were producing an instrument contrary to the type of instrument = promoted by a given organization.&nbsp; And I think no one really suffers = unduly as a result of "expulsion" from IBO or APOBA.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>My personal feeling is that = organizations which promote strictly wind-blown instruments are well = within their rights to do so, and I embrace and support their work.&nbsp; = Pipe organs are my livelihood, and = while&nbsp;</FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell> I certainly = don't hate electronic organs,&nbsp;I do believe that they are = "compromises".&nbsp; For me, they have always been the instrument I had = because I couldn't have a pipe organ.&nbsp; </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>Greg Rister</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>Pipe Organ = Craftsmen</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell>Pomona, = California</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DRockwell></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A = href=3D"">Dorian</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A = = href=3D"">Residence Organ List</A></DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 03/11/2003 5:51:46 AM </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Residence Organs] = Peter Collins (X posted)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Hello, Tony:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Similar things have happened in = the U.S.A. to some </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>of our long-established builders = who work with </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Allen and Rodgers.&nbsp; = Pity.&nbsp; The builders see a good </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>business opportunity.&nbsp; The = societies are concerned </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>about their purity.&nbsp; = (???)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>F. Richard Burt</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Dorian Organs</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>&nbsp; </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>.</FONT></DIV></FONT> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>--- Gregory Rister</DIV> <DIV>--- <A = href=3D""></A></DI= V> <DIV>--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>    
(back) Subject: Re: pipe spacing on windchest - question From: "RICHARD SCHNEIDER, PRES/CEO" <> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:18:57 -0600   Harry Chase wrote:   > I am starting to lay out a toeboard for an Octave diapason rank.   <snip>   > I know in a general way that if they are too close together the tuning and/or > speech can be affected, and for the tiny ones the valves in the chest will dictate a minimum spacing; but what is typically > used in the industry here?   I haven't seen anyone address this question, so I'll write about it.   Generally speaking, the layout should allow at least the diameter of the pipe in front of the mouth to allow for proper speech.   > and also, how close, in your experience, can I get the pipes together >(especially the larger ones) without having problems?   It's less critical that there be that much room either along-side or behind the pipe, but be warned that if they are crowded too close, shading of the pitch will occur. The other thing to be sure to prevent the mouths of pipes speaking into each other.   The simplest and best way to do this is to make a paper tracing of the anticipated planting of the pipes, and to draw out which way the mouths are facing, so that you can be sure to allow speaking room in front of them.   > Thanks for any help!   I hope that this has been some. . .(albeit late!)   Faithfully, -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX (217) 972-4767 CELL PHONE LAPTOP/TRAVEL EMAIL SHOP EMAIL (in my absence) OFFICE EMAIL (when I'm home) WEB PAGE URL      
(back) Subject: electric contacts and trackers From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:44:24 -0600   Anybody had any experience adding a set of key and pedal contacts to a tracker organ? It sounds like, off hand, it would be a great way to add a few ranks on an electromechanical chest without messing with all the elegant tracker mechanism?   Dennis Steckley   Every gun that is made and every warship that is launched, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed--Dwight Eisenhower        
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Re: pipe spacing on windchest - question From: <> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:45:55 EST     --part1_ab.2a9b2bf0.2ba0b033_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi all, I have two cents to add to the pipe placement topic. When placing pipes on a chest, if you have a string and the celest on the chest you keep them apart because one can pull the other from its tuning. Have fun. Dennis   --part1_ab.2a9b2bf0.2ba0b033_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D3 = FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D =3D3D"Arial" LANG=3D3D"0">Hi all, I have two cents to add to the pipe = placement=3D20=3D topic.<BR> When placing pipes on a chest, if you have a string and the celest on the = ch=3D est you keep them apart because one can pull the other from its = tuning.<BR> Have fun.<BR> Dennis</FONT></HTML>   --part1_ab.2a9b2bf0.2ba0b033_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Long Promised Fish Glue Response (WARNING: LONG!) From: "Richard Schneider" <> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:20:35 -0600 wrote: > >And above all else: use hot Hide Glue and AVOID FISH GLUE AT ALL > >COSTS!!!! > >Faithfully, > >Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO > >SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. > Dear Richard: > I normally rail against anything but hot glue as those on this list > can attest. On rare occasions I have used a quality fish glue on > small jobs with no apparent problems. This was done more as a test of > how it would hold up and how easy it was to work with. Please expand > on your comments on not using the fish glue. If you have had problems > more than the average slow drying time of fish glue then please share > them so we might avoid like situations.   Now that I've gotten home, I'd like to send along a copy of a post I did some months ago that was originally written by Robert Ridgeway of the Sanfilippo Collection.   Basically, the problems I had were due to high humidity situations so prevalent in our area, especially in non air-conditioned churches. We had an entire set of Primaries blow off inside a windchest and they had to be completely be re-built as a result. After that incident, every last drop of Fish Glue we had was washed down the drain and the Electric Glue Pots brought out of retirement.     --Begin forwarded message--   Fish Glue: DO NOT USE FOR ORGAN WORK (unless you want to do it TWICE!)! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:31:55 -0600   > wcjharrisville wrote: > I am sure the sticky (pun intended) subject of hot glue vs. other > glues has been discussed before. I just don't know where to find it. > I know some of those who use hot glue swear by it for gluing most > everything and dispise anything else. However, the commercial glues > must have their place in the scheme of things. On all my visits to > the C.B. Fisk Organ Company open houses I noticed that their > windchests are assembled using yellow glue. I really want to know > more - the advantages and disadvantages of using different glues.   At the risk of repeating myself, I will re-iterate about the Fish Glue failure problems I had last year due to high humidity for those who did not catch this the first time. I have subsequently learned from others who are "in the know" that the product is really not designed for pipe organ applications.   Further to that, there was an excellent article by Robert Ridgeway on the TO List that I'm re-posting to this forum with due credit given for the authorship:   > We do use fish glue for some applications in the restoration of > automatic > musical instruments but the OVERWHELMING product we use is > hot hide > glue. We buy it directly from the largest manufacturer in the > country: > > Milligan & Higgins > Maple Avenue P.O. Box 506 > Johnstown, NY 12095 (518) 762-4638 > > You must specify the 2X-High Clarity Hide Glue. It is sold ONLY in > 50# > fiber drums for around $3.00 per pound. It is finest hot glue we > have ever > used and find that it works for leather, rubber cloth, gluing wood > back > together, etc. It has excellent tack, low odor, and tremendous > strength > and you can remove it in the future with hot water and/or steam. > > I cannot over stress the value of using a product like hide glue for > proper > restorations. Remember, we are restoring not only for the present > but for > the future and as one who has had to deal with previous white glue > "restorations" on instruments, it is vital to think about the poor > individual who will have to tackle all these machines in another 50- > 75 > years. I cannot think of any legitimate reason for not using hot hide > glue > for all restoration work. The fish glue is useful for a quick fix "in = the > field" since it can be carried in a bottle in a toolbox but I would > never > consider rebuilding an entire instrument using it. Besides, the cost > would > become prohibitive as compared to hot hide glue if you were also to > attempt > to use it for releathering regulators, trems, winkers, etc. We make > up a > fresh pot once a week and keep the glue pot liner in the refrigerator > when > not in use to maintain it. The first thing you want to do is discard the =   > wire hoop that comes with most glue pots and cut a piece of > hardwood dowel > to span the pot liner near the top. You can use this to wipe your > brushes > against and it, unlike the wire hoop, will not react with the glue and > water. It is vital to keep the glue pot covered at all times except > when > you are using it. The glue will evaporate and become far too thick > in a > very short time if you do not. It is also important to remember to > hydrate > the glue when making a new pot. You mix up the dried glue in a > flexible > container (such as an old quart cottage cheese container) with the > proper > amount of clean cool (NOT hot) water and let it absorb the water. It > will, > after a couple of hours, end up looking very much like moist > oatmeal. Only > THEN do you place this hydrated glue into the glue pot to melt. By > properly preparing the glue in this way you nearly double the > holding power > of the product, according to the experts at Milligan & Higgins and > borne > out by our own experiments. Remember, hot hide glue has been > used for > centuries for fine furniture, pipe organ pneumatics, etc. and some > things > just can't be improved upon. > > Sincerely, > > Robert Ridgeway, Curator > Sanfilippo Collection --end forwarded message--     -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX SHOP EMAIL SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL HOME OFFICE EMAIL WEB PAGE URL         > Thanks, > > Al Sefl > Purveyor of Old South Horsehide Glue... > Made only from thoroughbred horses... > That lost the Kentucky Derby..   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX SHOP EMAIL SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL HOME OFFICE EMAIL WEB PAGE URL