DIYAPASON-L Digest #926 - Thursday, November 27, 2003
 
Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Second Touch
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Second Touch
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "atos" <atos@stirlingprop.com>
Re: Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
RE: [Residence Organs]  Converting a keyboard to second touch
  by "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:40:26 -0600   Hello group;   My three manual Moller console is back in the picture of my project. Can anyone tell me how to convert the accomp keyboard to second touch?   Gary K.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:48:15 -0500   Gary, and others on the list:   I don't want to respond with advice I'd like to make certain of my terms. My limited understanding comes from some electronics of the past. . . I = may be confusing the terms "second touch" and "velocity sensitive".   Is a "second touch" keyboard one that can be played normally, but the keys can be pressed a little harder to take them beyond the usual "stopping point" to access some other function - like vibrato . . . while a = "velocity sensitive" keyboard is one which senses how rapidly/strongly a key is pressed so that volume info can be sent in order to mimic the effect of a piano keyboard?   I remember as a teenager seeing an electronic organ which allowed one to press the keys about 1/8" past the usual stop. Certain effects would be called upon in doing this. The keyboard, though, seemed a little "fuzzy" = to play normally - like my fingers didn't seem to hit the usual sudden stop = of normal keyboards.   I'm having my keyboards outfitted with "velocity sensitive" contacts from Opus-Two. But I'm thinking that that is not what is being requested here.   Please somebody clarify this topic before others of us head down the wrong thread.   Happy Thanksgiving. Keith Zimmerman   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com> To: "DIYAPASON-L" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:40 AM Subject: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch     > Hello group; > > My three manual Moller console is back in the picture of my project. Can > anyone tell me how to convert the accomp keyboard to second touch? > > Gary K. > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:39:44 -0500   Hi Keith, With no established expertise but with a somewhat reasonable = understanding of your subject, I would say your understanding is correct. If you think = of a key as spring returned switch, second touch simply adds another switch at further depression of the key than the first touch switch point. I'm sure = the key effort system provides some sort of friction point at the first switch depression point to establish a feedback to the fingers, but the system = does not provide anything but the off/on action of the 2 switches. Velocity sensitive keys actually have an accelerometer sensor which = feeds a computer, which in turn controls pallet open and closure rates. The reason = for this on a pipe organ is to provide synthetic "tracker touch" to the = player. Without this system, the pallets open and close at the rates predetermined = by the builder, and the organist has no control of this function. Velocity sensitive keys on a digital instrument can also control = volume like on a piano, something pipes cannot do unless the velocity signal is = somehow fed to lightning fast expression shades. Can you imagine? (grin). Hope this helps Mike   Keith Zimmerman wrote:   > Gary, and others on the list: > > I don't want to respond with advice I'd like to make certain of my = terms. > My limited understanding comes from some electronics of the past. . . I = may > be confusing the terms "second touch" and "velocity sensitive". > > Is a "second touch" keyboard one that can be played normally, but the = keys > can be pressed a little harder to take them beyond the usual "stopping > point" to access some other function - like vibrato . . . while a = "velocity > sensitive" keyboard is one which senses how rapidly/strongly a key is > pressed so that volume info can be sent in order to mimic the effect of = a > piano keyboard? > > I remember as a teenager seeing an electronic organ which allowed one to > press the keys about 1/8" past the usual stop. Certain effects would be > called upon in doing this. The keyboard, though, seemed a little = "fuzzy" to > play normally - like my fingers didn't seem to hit the usual sudden stop = of > normal keyboards. > > I'm having my keyboards outfitted with "velocity sensitive" contacts = from > Opus-Two. But I'm thinking that that is not what is being requested = here. > > Please somebody clarify this topic before others of us head down the = wrong > thread. > > Happy Thanksgiving. > Keith Zimmerman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com> > To: "DIYAPASON-L" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:40 AM > Subject: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch > > > Hello group; > > > > My three manual Moller console is back in the picture of my project. = Can > > anyone tell me how to convert the accomp keyboard to second touch? > > > > Gary K.    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:16:02 -0000   Hi   Second touch on theatre pipe organs (extra key travel against a stronger spring) is normally used to control an additional group of stops, allowing = a solo (using 2nd touch) to be accompanied on the same manual. I've never come across it being used to trigger vibrato (although there's no reason = why it shouldn't.   Some synthesisers use a technique called "Aftertouch" which can be used to control filters, modulation, etc. My Roland Jumo 2 allows this, but there is no distinct extra key travel.   Velocity sensitive keyboards (as on most synchs and electronic keyboards) allow the volume (and sometimes the tone) of the sound to be controlled in much the same way as on a piano. One common implementation is to measure the time taken between the "rest" contact opening and the other contact making.   Trust this helps.   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch     | Gary, and others on the list: | | I don't want to respond with advice I'd like to make certain of my = terms. | My limited understanding comes from some electronics of the past. . . I may | be confusing the terms "second touch" and "velocity sensitive". | | Is a "second touch" keyboard one that can be played normally, but the = keys | can be pressed a little harder to take them beyond the usual "stopping | point" to access some other function - like vibrato . . . while a "velocity | sensitive" keyboard is one which senses how rapidly/strongly a key is | pressed so that volume info can be sent in order to mimic the effect of = a | piano keyboard? | | I remember as a teenager seeing an electronic organ which allowed one to | press the keys about 1/8" past the usual stop. Certain effects would be | called upon in doing this. The keyboard, though, seemed a little = "fuzzy" to | play normally - like my fingers didn't seem to hit the usual sudden stop of | normal keyboards. | | I'm having my keyboards outfitted with "velocity sensitive" contacts = from | Opus-Two. But I'm thinking that that is not what is being requested = here. | | Please somebody clarify this topic before others of us head down the = wrong | thread. | | Happy Thanksgiving. | Keith Zimmerman | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com> | To: "DIYAPASON-L" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> | Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 10:40 AM | Subject: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch | | | > Hello group; | > | > My three manual Moller console is back in the picture of my project. = Can | > anyone tell me how to convert the accomp keyboard to second touch? | > | > Gary K. | > | > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own | > Residence Pipe Organs. | > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org | > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org | > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org | > | > | > | | | DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own | Residence Pipe Organs. | HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org | List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org | Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org | | |    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:41:31 EST   Hello-- Its been my experience that converting keyboards to second touch is a =   lengthy delicate process, and also keeping the second touch contacts in adjustment so that they "fire" pretty much equally has also been a = headache. As far as having vibrato/tremolo on second touch---why would you want = to??? Second touch is good for accents and the like, the amount of time it would = take to get a pipe organ electro mechanical trem system on and running would certainly slow the musical performance down, if one had to "wait" for the = trem for each note or whatever. None of the above,,,however,, applies to "keyboard" =   instruments, just consoles <G> Just my 2 cents--- ---Roc LVRockafellow    
(back) Subject: Second Touch From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:08:26 -0500   In response to Roc's question:   "As far as having vibrato/tremolo on second touch---why would you want = to??? Second touch is good for accents and the like, the amount of time it would take to get a pipe organ electro mechanical trem system on and running = would certainly slow the musical performance down, if one had to "wait" for the trem for each note or whatever."   Gee, now my browser is typing in large print - I guess so Roc can read it = - LOL. Sorry, no offense.   Anyway, I did mention that my only experience was with an electronic at a showroom, and that was around 30 years ago. So, on the particular organ, some functions were called upon via the second touch. Regarding why one would want this, again, I'm thinking electronic. If something like = vibrato was called upon by second touch, one might use this for expression = purposes. Many times you will hear singers, trumpeters, and other wind instrumentalists begin their vibrato a few counts after a long-held note = is begun. Anyone who has played a MIDI keyboard using the MIDI Violin or Trumpet may find that the vibrato begins a few seconds after the key is = held and it is quite unrealistic and obnoxious. If this function were on the second touch, one could control when the vibrato would begin and end.   I say obnoxious because of the following example. We were using a MIDI keyboard in conjunction with the grand piano at my former church (the = organ wasn't working at that time). Since we were singing "God of our Fathers" (National Hymn), we tho't that it would be a nice touch to utilize the = MIDI Trumpet on the MIDI keyboard. As you know, the little trumpet fanfare at the beginning of each verse starts with a 3 count chord (dotted half = note). Part way thru the 3rd count, the vibrato would begin on the MIDI keyboard trumpet, and this could not be adjusted. It also a pretty deep vibrato = and just didn't sound right. It would be great for other trumpet pieces as = long as no note was longer than a half note.   Of course, in the case of pipe organ trems, I agree that this would not be practical.   Another question. . . Tony mentioned that second touch would allow a solo voice to be played via 2nd touch such that a solo and its accompaniment could be played on the same manual. In doing this, though, one realizes that the solo voice will play "thru" the accompaniment stops. IOW, the = solo voice will consist of both the accompaniment stops AND the solo voice. I guess it would have the same effect as playing the accompaniment on Swell and the solo on Great with the S/G coupler drawn. I would think that one would have to choose compatible stops, though. Using a string = accompaniment with a very fluty solo might not work in Tony's example, while it might = with a reed or diapason solo assigned to second touch.   Hope y'all had a nice Thanksgiving. Ours has been very nice so far. It's the 1st one we've ever had that consisted solely of the immediate family - my wife, our 3 children, and myself - and no parents or in-laws. Of = course, we will spend some time with the extended family later this weekend.   Keith      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 15:54:57 -0600   >My three manual Moller console is back in the picture of my project. Can >anyone tell me how to convert the accomp keyboard to second touch?   Gary   I have a feeling that it might not be easy, maybe even impossible to convert a keyboard to add second touch. Since there need to be two sets of contacts along with some different springs I don't know if something like your Moller manuals, if they are original to the console, would be able to be modified. You might just see if you can find a set of manuals that has the second touch already to save yourself a lot of grief.   Just my 2 cents on the subject <G>   Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on the list - well at least to those who are in the U.S.!   David  
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Second Touch From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:00:43 -0600   At 3:08 PM -0500 11/27/03, Keith Zimmerman wrote: >Another question. . . Tony mentioned that second touch would allow a solo >voice to be played via 2nd touch such that a solo and its accompaniment >could be played on the same manual. In doing this, though, one realizes >that the solo voice will play "thru" the accompaniment stops. IOW, the = solo >voice will consist of both the accompaniment stops AND the solo voice. I >guess it would have the same effect as playing the accompaniment on Swell >and the solo on Great with the S/G coupler drawn. I would think that one >would have to choose compatible stops, though. Using a string = accompaniment >with a very fluty solo might not work in Tony's example, while it might = with >a reed or diapason solo assigned to second touch.   Normally, the second touch stops are things like Tibias, Tubas, Posthorns, etc., usually all loud stops so as to be able to "play through" the "normal" stops drawn on that manual. Good theatre organists are very adept with using second touch for counter-melodies and accents. For those of us training in the "classical" tradition second touch seems to pose major problems, at least it has in my case.   David  
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "atos" <atos@stirlingprop.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 17:06:26 -0600   Converting a conventional keyboard to second touch would be very difficult without the addition of electronic keying contacts. On a theatre organ, = the depth of the key is greater and there is an additional set of springs installed. You would need to have the required key depth available. An alternative would be pressure sensitive electronic contacts. These usually require a computer to register variations in impact or touch. Many electronic keyboards have this feature, but usually do not have the same feel as second touch on a theatre organ, and it is usually a case of the sound becoming stronger or with a different attack, rather than an an additional distinct rank or ranks coming in when the second touch contact = is closed. If faced with your problem, I would explore having a new keyboard made and use your old one for some other purpose. Organ Supply Industries now manufactures new replica Wurlitzer keyboards with second touch. -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On = Behalf Of GRSCoLVR@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 1:42 PM To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch     Hello-- Its been my experience that converting keyboards to second touch is = a lengthy delicate process, and also keeping the second touch contacts in adjustment so that they "fire" pretty much equally has also been a = headache. As far as having vibrato/tremolo on second touch---why would you want to??? Second touch is good for accents and the like, the amount of time it would take to get a pipe organ electro mechanical trem system on and = running would certainly slow the musical performance down, if one had to "wait" = for the trem for each note or whatever. None of the above,,,however,, applies = to "keyboard" instruments, just consoles <G> Just my 2 cents--- ---Roc LVRockafellow    
(back) Subject: Re: Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:15:39 -0500   Gary asked about 2nd touch on Moller keyboards. One idea would be to find such a keyboard and see if it is a "simple" modification.   For many years, the Dickinson Theatre Organ Society (Wilmington, Deleware) had a 3m Moller theatre organ console as a second console on their large Kimball instrument. They sold it a few years ago when they got a second Kimball console. I should remember who bought the Moller console (for his residence organ project), but his name escapes me. Someone who probably knows, or who might also know the details of the Moller 2nd touch mechanism, is:   "Robert E. Wilhelm, Jr." <wilhelmr@bellatlantic.net>   In principle it's "just" a matter of having a stiff spring against which the key appears to bottom-out but which also allows further travel if sufficient pressure is exerted; one or more contract are arranged so that they "make" only during that extended travel. Wurlitzer used long-ish = flat metal leaf springs. My console has Kilgen keyboards, and it appears that the 2nd touch springs may be coiled. (Accompaniment and Great have 2nd touch.) As I recall, Allen Miller suggests a key pressure of about 20 ounces for the 2nd touch. (Yes, twenty.)   Truly talented (and well-practiced!) theatre organists can indeed play multiple parts per hand, using a strong registration for the one on 2nd touch. A nice big, smooth Tuba Mirabilis used in this fashion can give = the effect of a group of French Horns ("open") playing a counter-melody = (Yum!).   In addition, theatre consoles usually had a "traps" line on the Accompaniment manual and often a second one for the 2nd touch. This was done via a dedicated contact for each key, all of which were wired in parallel, so that playing *any* key would produce a signal on the "traps" line. That signal could be used to play non-tuned things like drums, cymbals, triangles, and the like. A common control was "Accompaniment Traps to 2nd Touch", which was actually "Accompaniment Traps OFF 1st Touch". It would let you move the triangle, for example, to that it would plink only when you pressed through to 2nd touch.   Indeed, a true dexterity test! (Though, on a theatre organ it is usually the *left* hand that plays the Accompaniment, so it would really be a "sinisterity" test!)   Larry      
(back) Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch From: "Kilgen" <kilgen@wi.rr.com> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:33:32 -0600   OK. Unless I buy new keyboards I guess I have been advised away from considering having second touch on my console. I thought that maybe there was some kind of kit available that someone might know about. I didn't realize that it would be this difficult.   GK -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On = Behalf Of atos Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 5:06 PM To: Residence Organ List Subject: RE: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch     Converting a conventional keyboard to second touch would be very = difficult without the addition of electronic keying contacts. On a theatre organ, = the depth of the key is greater and there is an additional set of springs installed. You would need to have the required key depth available. An alternative would be pressure sensitive electronic contacts. These usually require a computer to register variations in impact or touch. Many electronic keyboards have this feature, but usually do not have the same feel as second touch on a theatre organ, and it is usually a case of the sound becoming stronger or with a different attack, rather than an an additional distinct rank or ranks coming in when the second touch contact = is closed. If faced with your problem, I would explore having a new keyboard made and use your old one for some other purpose. Organ Supply Industries now manufactures new replica Wurlitzer keyboards with second touch. -----Original Message----- From: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org [mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of GRSCoLVR@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 1:42 PM To: DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Converting a keyboard to second touch     Hello-- Its been my experience that converting keyboards to second touch = is a lengthy delicate process, and also keeping the second touch contacts in adjustment so that they "fire" pretty much equally has also been a = headache. As far as having vibrato/tremolo on second touch---why would you want to??? Second touch is good for accents and the like, the amount of time it would take to get a pipe organ electro mechanical trem system on and = running would certainly slow the musical performance down, if one had to "wait" = for the trem for each note or whatever. None of the above,,,however,, applies = to "keyboard" instruments, just consoles <G> Just my 2 cents--- ---Roc LVRockafellow