DIYAPASON-L Digest #905 - Thursday, October 23, 2003
 
Combination actions
  by "Drew Taylor" <dhtaylor@netmcr.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Combination actions
  by "Scott E." <yahudinyhwh@sbcglobal.net>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Combination actions
  by "Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Combination actions
  by "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com>
Re: [Residence Organs]  Combination actions
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
 

(back) Subject: Combination actions From: "Drew Taylor" <dhtaylor@netmcr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:34:31 -0400   Hi listmembers, I have a somewhat simple question: how do the old rudimentary setter-board combination actions work? I am speaking of the type where one has to engage toggle switches on a panel to set up each piston.   So far I have small magnets with bussbars on them to throw a series of contacts when a piston applies power to them (same thing as key relays). I was imagining wiring the on-coils of each drawknob solenoid that I want on the piston to a contact finger so as to cause the selected stops to engage when the piston is pressed (powering the magnet and sending power to whatever on-coils are wired into it). This seems to be fine but wouldn't that mean each off-coil of the unneeded stops would also have to be wired into a contact finger to allow the combinations to be recalled correctly (drawn stops being canceled)? This would be a little different with the setterboard involved, but this is the basic theory I suppose.   I haven't yet put iron to solder for this, just seeing if this would be workable.   Regards,   -Drew Taylor Greensboro, NC    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Combination actions From: "Scott E." <yahudinyhwh@sbcglobal.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:07:25 -0700   Drew,   If you need to throw a reset to the off-coil, that would imply a connection through the setter board toggle when the toggle was in the "don't throw" position. This is accomplished with what is called a double pole switch. The switch has three connections with the center pole making connection with one of the two other poles depending on the position of the toggle. This is a simple connection in theory, but one should read the manufacturer's data sheet on the relays to determine if any buffering of the connection is required (probably not).   The real issue is how much current the solenoids draw. As I read your post, I believe that you are using a relay between the piston and the stop solenoids. If there are a substantial number of solenoids (stops), there can be a massive current draw through the circuit, enough to cause damage to the piston (switch) if not isolated by a relay. This would require two relays for each stop, one for controlling the on solenoid and one for controlling the off solenoid.   Toggle switches can be double throw as well. This is a parallel switch to the one described above, so that you can have another circuit opened and closed at the same time. This could be useful in certain situations, but I am not sure it is necessary for your application.   Scott Evans ------------------------------------------------------------ Drew Taylor wrote: > Hi listmembers, > I have a somewhat simple question: how do the old rudimentary > setter-board combination actions work? I am speaking of the type where > one has to engage toggle switches on a panel to set up each piston. > So far I have small magnets with bussbars on them to throw a series of > contacts when a piston applies power to them (same thing as key > relays). I was imagining wiring the on-coils of each drawknob solenoid > that I want on the piston to a contact finger so as to cause the > selected stops to engage when the piston is pressed (powering the magnet =   > and sending power to whatever on-coils are wired into it). This seems to =   > be fine but wouldn't that mean each off-coil of the unneeded stops would =   > also have to be wired into a contact finger to allow the combinations to =   > be recalled correctly (drawn stops being canceled)? This would be a > little different with the setterboard involved, but this is the basic > theory I suppose. > > I haven't yet put iron to solder for this, just seeing if this would be > workable. > Regards, > > -Drew Taylor > Greensboro, NC > > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own > Residence Pipe Organs. > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Combination actions From: "Tony Newnham" <organist.tony@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:57:53 +0100   Hi   An extra refinement - if you haven't already got the setter switches - is = a central "off" position - isolating the particular stop from that piston - = so if it's On it stays on, and if Off it stays off - just adds a little more flexibility - especially if you only have a limited number of pistons. Comptons and Wurlitzers both used (at least on those I've come across) a rather Heath Robinson setter system with parallel bus bars for On & Off, with each stop having a pivoted metal contact that could be moved to = either bus - or left in the middle (neutral).   Every Blessing   Tony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott E." <yahudinyhwh@sbcglobal.net> To: "Residence Organ List" <DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Combination actions     | Drew, | | If you need to throw a reset to the off-coil, that would imply a | connection through the setter board toggle when the toggle was in the | "don't throw" position. This is accomplished with what is called a | double pole switch. The switch has three connections with the center | pole making connection with one of the two other poles depending on the | position of the toggle. This is a simple connection in theory, but one | should read the manufacturer's data sheet on the relays to determine if | any buffering of the connection is required (probably not). | | The real issue is how much current the solenoids draw. As I read your | post, I believe that you are using a relay between the piston and the | stop solenoids. If there are a substantial number of solenoids (stops), | there can be a massive current draw through the circuit, enough to cause | damage to the piston (switch) if not isolated by a relay. This would | require two relays for each stop, one for controlling the on solenoid | and one for controlling the off solenoid. | | Toggle switches can be double throw as well. This is a parallel switch | to the one described above, so that you can have another circuit opened | and closed at the same time. This could be useful in certain situations, | but I am not sure it is necessary for your application. | | Scott Evans | ------------------------------------------------------------ | Drew Taylor wrote: | > Hi listmembers, | > I have a somewhat simple question: how do the old rudimentary | > setter-board combination actions work? I am speaking of the type where | > one has to engage toggle switches on a panel to set up each piston. | > So far I have small magnets with bussbars on them to throw a series of | > contacts when a piston applies power to them (same thing as key | > relays). I was imagining wiring the on-coils of each drawknob = solenoid | > that I want on the piston to a contact finger so as to cause the | > selected stops to engage when the piston is pressed (powering the = magnet | > and sending power to whatever on-coils are wired into it). This seems = to | > be fine but wouldn't that mean each off-coil of the unneeded stops = would | > also have to be wired into a contact finger to allow the combinations = to | > be recalled correctly (drawn stops being canceled)? This would be a | > little different with the setterboard involved, but this is the basic | > theory I suppose. | > | > I haven't yet put iron to solder for this, just seeing if this would = be | > workable. | > Regards, | > | > -Drew Taylor | > Greensboro, NC | > | > DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own | > Residence Pipe Organs. | > HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org | > List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org | > Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org | > | > | | DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own | Residence Pipe Organs. | HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org | List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org | Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org | |    
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Combination actions From: "Larry Chace" <RLC1@etnainstruments.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:22:29 -0400   Drew Taylor <dhtaylor@netmcr.com> correctly described a system of hard-wired combinations, in which each piston operates a multiple contact relay, energizing a number "output" contacts, each of which is wired to = the ON or OFF magnets of the stoptab (or stopknob) actions.   To make this combination action adjustable, use just one contact for each stop, wiring it to the center postion of a Single Pole Double Throw = switch. Wire one of the switch's "output" contacts to the ON magnet and the other to the OFF magnet.   As has been suggested, if you get "center-off" switches, then you can have combinations that can optionally ignore some stops. (In electronic combination actions, this is often referred to as "Range" or "Scope".) If you are using little slide switches, the "center-off" (on-off-on) type are often no more expensive than than the on-on type. You may find that = double pole switches are no more expensive than single pole, in which case you = can wire the two poles in parallel.   You need one relay per piston and one switch for each stop for each = piston.   You can eliminate the need for the multiple-contact relays by using heavy-current relays (Single Pole Single Throw Normally Open) but then you need to fan out with diodes (ala 1N400x type) so that each switch's "feed" doesn't feed back into other switches. (Same principle as note relays and gang switches for couplers or unification.)   If you built two of these complete systems, with a switch that lets you select between them, then you have a 2-level "memory", one for you and one for guest organists!   No matter what type of combination action system is used, it is always a good idea to wire diodes across the magnets so as to squelch the inductive kickback that can destroy solid-state components or burn out wire = contacts.   Larry Chace      
(back) Subject: Re: [Residence Organs] Combination actions From: "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 08:58:30 -0700   Hi Drew. Basically, you're right about the action. In a pipe organ, the setterboard is usually comprised of several sets of switches, one set for each piston of each manual, and each switch consisting of some arrangement =   of one contact which supplies power, and two other contacts, one for 'on', =   and one for 'off'. The switch can be moved to either 'on' or 'off', and occasionally also to a 'neutral' position so that that one stop is not affected if the piston is pushed. Hope this helps. Regards, Bob   At 09:34 PM 10/22/2003, Drew Taylor wrote: >Hi listmembers, >I have a somewhat simple question: how do the old rudimentary = setter-board >combination actions work? I am speaking of the type where one has to >engage toggle switches on a panel to set up each piston. >So far I have small magnets with bussbars on them to throw a series of >contacts when a piston applies power to them (same thing as key >relays). I was imagining wiring the on-coils of each drawknob solenoid >that I want on the piston to a contact finger so as to cause the selected =   >stops to engage when the piston is pressed (powering the magnet and >sending power to whatever on-coils are wired into it). This seems to be >fine but wouldn't that mean each off-coil of the unneeded stops would = also >have to be wired into a contact finger to allow the combinations to be >recalled correctly (drawn stops being canceled)? This would be a little >different with the setterboard involved, but this is the basic theory I >suppose. > >I haven't yet put iron to solder for this, just seeing if this would be >workable. >Regards, > >-Drew Taylor >Greensboro, NC > >DIYAPASON-L: a Discussion list for owners and builders of their own >Residence Pipe Organs. >HOMEPAGE : http://www.diyapason.pipechat.org >List: mailto:DIYAPASON-L@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:owner-DIYAPASON@pipechat.org >