PipeChat Digest #36 - Monday, August 18, 1997
 
 


(back) Subject: Wanamaker Visit From: Lawrence W Nevel <lnwbpa@sunlink.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:34:44 -0500   >Hi All, > Just got back from a trip to Philadelphia(Michael Flatley & Lord of the >Dance)-see it, you won't be sorry. Anyway, I got to hear and speak with >Peter Conte briefly after his 5:15 concert. It seems the Ethereal, >Echo, and Orchestral divisions are down due to being worked on. They >are to be up within the not to distant future. Peter stated that the >new owners were "fun to work for" and "have done more work on the organ >in the last six months than has been done in years". The new owners are >"very supportive" of the organ according to him. And, yes, the 3rd >floor cafeteria(soon to be opened) is the best place to hear it IMHO. >Going off the up elevator, turn left at women's intimate apparrel and go >to the rail. Thanks for the tip whoever gave it. >Larry  
(back) Subject: Re: Best Lining for Pipe Chambers? Any thoughts? From: RMaryman@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:41:36 -0400 (EDT)   I usually recommend that a good SOLID set of walls be constructed with 5/8/ or 3/4 interior grade plywood on 2 x 4 studs on 16' centers...with 1/2 or 5/8 sheetrock (drywall) screwed at 6 inch intervals to the already firmly mounted plywood. the drywall should be painted first with a good sealing primer, THEN with two or more coats of >Oil based< semi-gloss enamel in either off-white or light gray. this would give the most reflective wall short of lining the chamber with ceramic tiles. The main consideration is to be sure the walls are built in a manner in which there is little or no sympathetic vibrations which could act in a way to absorb rather than reflect sounds in the chamber.   Rick Maryman    
(back) Subject: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Mayotgj@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:57:37 -0400 (EDT)   I wondered if anyone would offer opinions or suggestions regarding the selection of a new digital church organ.   I am on a team to make recommendations for a new organ for St. Mary=92s c= hurch in Wappingers Falls, NY. We are primarily looking at three manual instruments. We have talked to company sales reps. The following instruments were recommended: the Rogers model 950, the Allen 51S and A= P-9 and the Ahlborn-Galanti Chronicler III. We have literature from Johannus= , but have not spoken to a sales rep. We have had a demo of the Rogers 950= at St. Francis church in Mount Kisco. Other demos are being planned. =20   Demonstrations (live and recorded) of these insturments always includes a midi sequencer which is impressive, but we wonder how often these devices= are used after the novelty has worn off? The sequencers seem easy to use, bu= t is it pratical to use one to provide music for services when an organist is = not available?   St. Mary=92s is a Roman Catholic parish with more than 2000 families. Th= e church was built in the 1877 in a gothic style. It seats 800 comfortably. The parish also supports a k-8 school. The current organ is an electron= ic Wurlitzer from the mid-1960s. (It doesn=92t owe us anything!) We have a growing music program that includes three choirs (adult, high school and elementary elevel) a musically trained organist who plays at weekend mass= es and leads the adult choir. There others with varying degrees of musical training who play for funerals, weddings and other services.   Last, does anyone have an suggestions for getting =91buy-in=92 from the p= arish for the project? To some, I=92m sure, the current organ is fine ---   THANKS! Greg Mayotte    
(back) Subject: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: "Shirley L" <pnst@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:14:02 PDT   Hi, folks!   The sanctuary of Abington Church is being repainted. Along with that, they want to replace the drapes that are in front of the chambers of the organ. There is active pipework in front of the drapes, and the enclosed chambers as well as the rest of the "exposed" Great are behind them.   Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this point in time.   So I put this question to all of you: What material should we use for these drapes so that we can get the maximum of sound and blending through them? The chambers face cross-chancel, btw.   Thanks! --Shirley     ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:23:46 -0400   Recommendation for purchasing a digital organ: D O N ' T D O I T !!   Purchasing an electronic substitute, especially in a parish of 2000 people is poor stewardship. An electronically (digitally, artificially, whatever) should will not be able to comfortable and properly lead congregational singing. As far as the convenience of the midi for having organ music when there is no organist available, that is a cop out. If a parish of that size wants a priest at Mass, he is there because they hired him; same goes for an organist. Church musicians, organists specifically, are serving in a called ministry, a response to talents give by God for our use to His glory. What is the purpose of saving money by not paying an adequate salary so the organist can be available to serve in this important ministry. If each church in the US paid its organists a full time salary, think how many jobs would be created. That is responsible stewardship; the church taking care of God's people. You also have a responsibility to the children in the school. They deserve to be trained using real instruments, not recordings. A pipe organ, rresponsibly built without electrical cheating--unification, borrowing, lights and pistons, and other nonmusical accessories, will serve your parish for generations to come. If you want to do popular music. Buy a real piano, again, the good quality will last. If you want to do "state of the art music", buy a state of the art keyboard/synthesizer. Then, when the fad is over and the thing is obsolete and just leans up against the wall in the sacristy, you won't mind getting rid of it. Don't expect a pipe organ to do everything. Have it designed to do what is most important: lead congregational singing. When you waste your money getting substitute instruments, stops, or whatever, you are wasting God's gifts to you. And that is poor stewardship.   Bruce Cornely ============ o o o o ============== o o o ______________ o o o o o o ______________ o o o OHS ======================== AGO  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Roger Pariseau <grinder@west.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 12:25:47 -0700   At 01:57 PM 8/17/97 -0400, Mayotgj@aol.com wrote:   >I wondered if anyone would offer opinions or suggestions regarding the >selection of a new digital church organ. > >I am on a team to make recommendations for a new organ for St. Mary=92s = church >in Wappingers Falls, NY. We are primarily looking at three manual >instruments. We have talked to company sales reps. The following >instruments were recommended: the Rogers model 950, the Allen 51S and A= P-9 >and the Ahlborn-Galanti Chronicler III. We have literature from Johannu= s, >but have not spoken to a sales rep. We have had a demo of the Rogers 95= 0 at >St. Francis church in Mount Kisco. Other demos are being planned. =20   >Demonstrations (live and recorded) of these insturments always includes = a >midi sequencer which is impressive, but we wonder how often these device= s are >used after the novelty has worn off? The sequencers seem easy to use, b= ut is >it pratical to use one to provide music for services when an organist is= not >available?   MIDI can be an organist-replacement tool for your church );-/ along wit= h all the other tricks it can do.   >St. Mary=92s is a Roman Catholic parish with more than 2000 families. T= he >church was built in the 1877 in a gothic style. It seats 800 comfortabl= y. >The parish also supports a k-8 school. The current organ is an electron= ic >Wurlitzer from the mid-1960s. (It doesn=92t owe us anything!) We have = a >growing music program that includes three choirs (adult, high school and >elementary elevel) a musically trained organist who plays at weekend mas= ses >and leads the adult choir. There others with varying degrees of musical >training who play for funerals, weddings and other services. > >Last, does anyone have an suggestions for getting =91buy-in=92 from the = parish >for the project? To some, I=92m sure, the current organ is fine ---   My guess is your old Wurlitzer is a 4700 model, which, in a _very_ good room, can sound almost decent. The best "buy in" is to have your salesperson temporarily install (or rent you) the model you are intereste= d in. Then, during services for three or four Sundays, play _both_ organs. If your church uses programs, you could put "Hymn 127 - Wurlitzer," "Offertory - Rodgers/Allen/Ahlborn-Galanti/Johannus/whatever" and so on, along with an explanation of what you're planning to do and why.   As a totally off-topic aside: When I was doing repair work for Wurlitzer Music Stores in Indianapolis, the then-manager took a 950TA model to the Paramount Music Palace. He planned on doing a side-by-side comparison wi= th the 47-rank Wurlitzer Theater organ installed there.   I really don't have to tell you people how _that_ turned out!   Roger Pariseau - grinder@west.net --------------------------------- "Not only do we learn from the mistakes of others, but we also=20 learn that it is wiser to enthrone and follow principles than it=20 is to enthrone and follow people." -- Marilyn Vos Savant  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: SCoonrod@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT)   Greg.....Why is the church looking for an electronic instrument? Is there adequate space for a pipe organ--an unused chamber-- the rear gallery? Is it funding, because if this is the case I would urge you to consider a used pipe organ. The initial cost for a fairly large instrument would'nt be much more than a electrone, and I promise it will be more satisfying in the long run, not to mention attract a high calibre of musician. I have served several churches with electronic instruments and when they do start giving trouble it usually has a "snowball" effect that can get quite expensive. At least look at the Organ Clearing House-- they have some excellent instruments available from antique American organs to eclectic Aeolian-Skinners. I have played some large electronics that are quite nice--but the cost gets on up there....when you're talking 50-75,000.00 a better investment would be a used pipe organ. Of course in the end it's up to the institution.....but it's worth the debate in the long run. RandyT  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: MFulk70776@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:51:07 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-08-17 15:33:35 EDT, you write:   << Subj: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated Date: 97-08-17 15:33:35 EDT From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Sender: pipechat@pipechat.org Reply-to: pipechat@pipechat.org (PipeChat) To: pipechat@pipechat.org (PipeChat) Recommendation for purchasing a digital organ: D O N ' T D O I T !! Purchasing an electronic substitute, especially in a parish of 2000 people is poor stewardship.   An electronically (digitally, artificially, whatever) should will not be able to comfortable and properly lead congregational singing.   As far as the convenience of the midi for having organ music when there is no organist available, that is a cop out. Church musicians, organists specifically, are serving in a called ministry, a response to talents give by God for our use to His glory. That is responsible stewardship; the church taking care of God's people.   You also have a responsibility to the children in the school. They deserve to be trained using real instruments, not recordings. A pipe organ, rresponsibly built without electrical cheating--unification, borrowing, lights and pistons, and other nonmusical accessories, will serve your parish for generations to come.   Don't expect a pipe organ to do everything. Have it designed to do what is most important: lead congregational singing.   When you waste your money getting substitute instruments, stops, or whatever, you are wasting God's gifts to you.   And that is poor stewardship. >> Althoughyou make some very good points in your original post, with complete respect, I think that, especially the points about stewardship, are made ad hominem. Many of the things that you say.....to many people......are a matter of taste and preference, and in my honest opinion are not affronts to The Lord God, His Stewardship, His Children, His Church, His Glory, or the leading of singing praise to Him. Many have very deep feelings about the pipe organ, as you obviously do, and I deeply respect that. However, perhaps this congregation has already thought things through, and has made a decision about electronic vs. pipe. I may have indeed misunderstood you.......but your tone appeared...to me....very very possibly not to others....to have the tone of a ukase, as contrasted to advice  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: photom@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:01:22 -0700   > Recommendation for purchasing a digital organ: D O N ' T D O I T !! > > Purchasing an electronic substitute, especially in a parish of 2000 > people is poor stewardship. > > An electronically (digitally, artificially, whatever) should will not be > able to comfortable and properly lead congregational singing.   Don't do it is right!   I play one of those digital organs at my parish. The sound lacks the "real pipe" sound in many ways. Here is a question that I think was asked before: "How can 20 speakers make the sounds of 2000 pipes without interfearing with the production of the sound of any other note?" I recently visited a parish that just purchased a new "temporary" digital organ for $ 20,000.00, just used until they get up another $ 60,000.00 for a 3 manual electronic, that's $ 80,000.00! Sure it can play the Widor tocatta and pick up the entire FM and AM band, but only for about 15 years, then things start to go. First it might be a dead note, then at the end of the week ten dead notes, then before you know it the digital organ dealer says "We can give you $ 3,000.00 for your 15 or 20 year old digital organ, and you can put it to a Super Deluxe 2500 model with the newest super digital technology, the same technology that was used to develope the Hubble Space Ttelescope." Why spend an average of $ 30,000.00 every 20 years or so on a new electronic when you can buy a well built pipe organ for $ 120,00.00 and pay only about $ 500.00 a year for maintanance. Then after about 80 years you spend about $ 3,000.00 for a releathering.   Think about it.  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:17:35 -0500   Dear Greg: Please realize that no electronic salesman is ever going to reccommend purchasing a pipe organ. Just as we pipe organ techs are reluctant to urge the purchase of an electronic. Having said that, I would urge you to investigate the Organ Clearing House, and ads in the Diapason, The Tracker, and The American Organist. There are plenty of fine organs out there just waiting for a new home. My own church just bought a 4/54 Moller and we will be installing it in our new building for a fraction of its cost.   Also, you might want to remind your committee that the doctrines of Vatican II state that "In the Latin Church, the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument and one that adds a wonderful splendor to the church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to heavenly things."   Later documents assert the pipe organ to be "the appropriate instrument for worship in the (Roman) Catholic Church.   Good Luck Jim D. -- email: jimdave@rnet.com Rainbow Ridge Farm    
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:00:54 -0500   Dear Shirley: If you absolutely, positivly, under pain of mortal sin, must install drapes over organ chamer openings, they should be of the same material as speaker cloth. This is made of mono-filiment usually, and is only slightly sound absorbent. I once was tech for a church that had gorgeous red velvet drapes over the chamber opening. One day, the minister asked me if I could do anything to make the organ louder and more "alive." I had him hold a chord on the organ, and pulled back the drape. He was astounded and I don't think it was too long before the drapes went into the fellowship hall. Sometimes, it just takes a bit of realistic "demonstrating". Another church locally is in the Colonial style with pleanty of tall windows, complete with the traditional red velvet drapes. Someone got the idea that the drapes could probably use a cleaning and sent them to the dry cleaners. When they were returned, they were a mixture of about 20 different lengths, and by this time, people noticed how much more "alive" was the room, including the organ. It was especially noticed when they had to turn down the volume on the p.a. system!   Good luck in your endeavor! Jim D. -- email: jimdave@rnet.com Rainbow Ridge Farm      
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: dougcampbell@juno.com (Douglas A. Campbell) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:45:08 EDT     On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Mayotgj@aol.com writes: >I wondered if anyone would offer opinions or suggestions regarding the >selection of a new digital church organ. Dear Greg,   Why haven't you at least considered a real pipe organ?   I have done extensive research and have documentation to show that a pipe organ will actually less than electronics over a period of years !   If you would like more information , just let me know!   I'll be back in NY in about three weeks and would be willing to meet with you to show you some of my data.     Douglas A. Campbell formerly in Skaneateles, NY now in Jackson, WY  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: CDKrug@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:16:32 -0400 (EDT)   Now, I'm very fond of my TC3.   I practice frequently on an ADC-3.   But you have 2000 families and you can't get the real thing?   MIDI is moot. I have never seen an instrument, including trackers, that could not be given MIDI control, given the desire and budget.   I play for a church that runs 100/Sunday. Pipes aren't gonna happen for me unless I hit the lottery and decide to be generous. But 2,000 families? Surely there must be a way you could afford the real thing.     Hope our loud and numerous opinions don't get you too down.     Best     Charles >Opinions are like feet- >Everyone's got 'em and they all stink  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: kwkeller@juno.com (KARL W KELLER) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:19:40 EDT         On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:45:08 EDT dougcampbell@juno.com (Douglas A. Campbell) writes: > >On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Mayotgj@aol.com writes: >>I wondered if anyone would offer opinions or suggestions regarding >the >>selection of a new digital church organ. >Dear Greg, > >Why haven't you at least considered a real pipe organ? ********************************************************************************************* > Has anyone ever seen an UNREAL pipe organ ???   Karl  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: Otto Pebworth <opebwrth@gte.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:13:25 -0400   "...then after 80 years, you spend $3,000 for a releathering..."   hmmm - I was just at a church that has a chemical factory within 1 mile each way of it, the organ was built in the 30's, rebuilt in the 60's, and needs it again (had 2 pouches and a switch blow out on me whilst I was there)...   Stewardship comes in all shapes and sizes. While pipes are the best way to go, there are times when other factors have to be taken into consideration.  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: MFulk70776@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-08-17 22:10:28 EDT, you write:   << Why spend an average of $ 30,000.00 every 20 years or so on a new electronic when you can buy a well built pipe organ for $ 120,00.00 and pay only about $ 500.00 a year for maintanance. Then after about 80 years you spend about $ 3,000.00 for a releathering. Think about it. >>   People just will never agree, even on the facts of this pipe vs. electric argument. It appears to me that it just can never be truly settled. I really enjoy hearing points of view about this. However, this whole thread went down only a few months ago, and even the "facts" that you mention were disputed. Do not misunderstand; *I* am not disputing you. But in an area where there is SO little agreement, and an argument that has been going on since at least 1935, when the Hammond was invented, can't we have a little peace.........and perhaps some *fresh* points of view. With repect, Mike Fulk  
(back) Subject: rebuilding, pouches, etc. From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:39:55 -0400   If the organ had had mechanical action, there would be no pouches. There is only one pallet per note per chest. Much less leather to worry about, plus this is not pouch leather. It's just plain good stewardship, and responsible use of our environmental gifts.   Bruce Cornely ============ o o o o ============== o o o ______________ o o o o o o ______________ o o o OHS ======================== AGO  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Andrew Wallace <awallace@csu.EDU.AU> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:53:01 +1000   Folks,   I have been interested in the discussion of this topic, but come from a church where the pipe organ proposal is not feasible. I wonder, if we go back to the original questions - to get some candid comments about the better digital instruments - I am currently looking, and would value any comments which might help use make a better selection.   Best wishes,   Andrew Wallace  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:49:24   Hi folks--   I lost track of this thread a long time ago. But to the original poster:   There are lots of opinions, very strong ones, on this subject, as you can see. My advice to you is to read all of them, and use what is appropriate for your situation.   My opinion here: If you have 2,000 families, if you can afford a good one, if you have the space for it, then I would indeed go with a pipe organ.... if there are that many parishioners, your sanctuary is probably a pretty good size.   But in any case, whether you go digital or pipe, get the finest quality you can for your dollar, and make sure you have it voiced by one of the top voicers in the country for your particular setting.   What are you using now? And like a previous poster asked: Are there existing chambers?   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Roger Pariseau <grinder@west.net> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:12:54 -0700   At 01:53 PM 8/18/97 +1000, Andrew Wallace wrote:   >I have been interested in the discussion of this topic, but come from a church >where the pipe organ proposal is not feasible. I wonder, if we go back to the >original questions - to get some candid comments about the better digital >instruments - I am currently looking, and would value any comments which might >help use make a better selection.   I'm going to pipe up on this issue once again. I've heard and played on some real stinker pipe organs (design, not lack of maintenance) and on some horrid to quite excellent electronic organs. A few weeks ago, as I flicked through the channels, I caught part of a Dianne Bish two-organ duet featuring her enormous whatever-it-is in FL and a Rodgers "950" -- or so said the closing credits. That edition of the "Joy of Music" was copyrighted 1995.   The duet was largely antiphonal so one could easily compare the recorded effect of both instruments. Other than the "classic" Rodgers flutes ("the Rodger's sound"), the electronic organ's recorded sound was as good as that pipe organ's recorded sound. Way back when Virgil Fox was concertizing and recording, his make-to-order "Touring Rodgers" certainly sounded much like the one at Riverside Church (acoustics notwithstanding).   IMHO, the best reason for purchasing a (good) pipe organ is that the church's investment could well be around longer than the church. The inordinate rate of growth in digital technology, and in electronics in general, would caution me against buying a _digital_ electronic organ: will there be repair parts in 15~20+ years?   Were it my church and my decision, I'd spring for a 1970~1975 Rodgers Classical organ. You'll get great psycho-acoustical effect, depending upon the room, of course. Since those instruments use off-the-shelf, available at Radio Shack, generic electronic parts, any electronics tech with a schematic can repair the things. Actually, you don't really need the schematics except, perhaps, for the amplifiers.   Get one with an external speaker cabinet and use the savings on hiring a sound expert to match the instrument to the church with supportive amplification and speaker systems.   My $.02. YMMV.   Roger Pariseau - grinder@west.net --------------------------------- "Not only do we learn from the mistakes of others, but we also learn that it is wiser to enthrone and follow principles than it is to enthrone and follow people." -- Marilyn Vos Savant  
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: "trompete@iafrica.com" <trompete@iafrica.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:43:31 +0200   Hi Shirley   > Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this > point in time. > > So I put this question to all of you: What material should we use for > these drapes so that we can get the maximum of sound and blending > through them? The chambers face cross-chancel, btw.   Why use drapes at all ! The St. Albans Anglican church in Pretoria, SA, has an "open" facade. i.e. You can see the pipework from front to back. It really is something special, and beautiful to look at. I have a photograph of it. I'll try and send you a pic, if I can get my scanner to work that is.   Not only does it ampilfies the magnificance of the organ, but the non-organic person can see what pipework looks like - even how the swell- and positif shutters open and close. It's really worth looking into. (I have to add that the pipework is situated on a seperate gallery, also facing the chancel.)   Good luck with your decision.   Andries Joubert     36 Dickens Avenue 2619, Orkney Tel: +27 (0)18 473-2539 South Africa Fax: +27 (0)18 473-1508   E-mail: trompete@iafrica.com ******************************* ________ MCMXCVII