PipeChat Digest #38 - Monday, August 18, 1997
 
 


(back) Subject: Re: the tracker backer :-) From: SCoonrod@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:48:23 -0400 (EDT)   Bruce---- I have nothing aginst a good tracker at all, but don't you think you would be happier if you could be more accepting of alternative actions ? I say this with all due respect.   RandyT :-)  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Mattcinnj@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:30:52 -0400 (EDT)   Hi Grieg ...... Here are my thoughts ... I am in a similar position:   If you can, this is a good time to wait a bit due to Allen coming out with their new Renaissance organ series. From what I have heard third hand ... this organ is the best thing since sliced bread. You will be able to load from CDs any or all stops of the organ plus each stop is totally voicable. The stops that ship with the organ are also supposed to be very very good. Be prepared to wait though, Allen can't produce them fast enough to satisfy demand.   A load of Allen patents (for the ADC organs, I think) are due to expire and I would expect that Rodgers has something up their sleave using some of that technology ..... so their current models may be obsolete in the not to distant future. The model you mentioned is very nice from a tonal standpoint ..... but I would wait. It is based on the 486 Intel chip which today is totally obsolete in the new home computer market. The fact that Rodgers did NOT upgrade to the Pentium for the current models may very well indicate that they have been working on something else.   Galanti is NOT recommended due to shoddy construction and is not in the same catagory as Allen and Rodgers.   Johannus in the past was also known for shoddy work but are now supposed to have improved.   You did not mention Makin organs from England. They are supposed to be making (no pun intended) a push to market their organs in the USA. Again, from what I have heard third hand, they are very good having a better reputation than either Galanti or Johannus. Internally though, I think they use a lot of Johannus stuff coupled with their own English samples. Customer satisfaction with their products is also supposed to be very very high.   In time, I think you will find Midi and sequencers to be very very useful for many reasons ... including "filling the gap" when the (or an) organist is not avialable.   Also you must consider the respective dealers and their track records. This is very important and could very well be THE most important consideration. Be sure to contact nearby churches and individuals who can provide unbiased information on their experiences with both the instruments and the dealers.     Hope this has been helpful.   Matt  
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:33:31 -0400   Another consideration (nonorganic one) is that after drapes have been up for several weeks, they begin to collect dust particles, mold spores, etc, which are then present for all close to them to breathe, your choir members for instance. Perhaps you can get them from the health standpoint. At least, the grille cloth is not a dense (for better ventillation) and can be vaccuumed. Maybe after complaints from your housekeeping people regarding the "dangerous" job of vaccuuming up in the chambers, even than could come down soon. They might also consider a nice curtain around the pulpit to hide the minister!! Good luck.   Bruce Cornely ============ o o o o ============== o o o ______________ o o o o o o ______________ o o o OHS ======================== AGO  
(back) Subject: Re: the tracker backer :-) From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:57:04 -0400   Randy, Thank you for your benevolent and considerate responce. I have played organs with alternative actions: electropneumatic, direct electric, unification, duplex.... all of the "conveniences"... oops, almost forgot my all time favorite: pisstons! None of these have brought more joy or increased appreciation to my organ playing or appriciation of the music. In fact , all of those things have resulted in my being more removed from the involvement: consoles far away from chambers in which the pipes were able to be buried because of electricity; 4 and 2 foot stops that don't work well because they are extension of an 8' rank; out of tune mutations because they are extended; difficulty playing trios or counterpoint because of duplexing; burping Bourdon pipes on DE action, etc. The only electrical assistance which I have sacrificed, but have learned to live without is my, sniff, general cancel. I deal with this every week, playing a unified, duplexed instrument of 16 ranks stretched to 38 stops (at least the great principal chorus is straight--4 rks). The only tracker I have had on a regular basis in a church job was an 1883 (?) Jardine of 10 ranks which I would gladly play in exchange for my present one. I do need to say that I enjoy playing other organs, just not as much. And if I have to choose an alternative to mechanical action, it would be electropneumatic. Having worked on EP & DE, I find the EP to be more accessible for trouble shooting. There is a new organ in a closeby city which is electric action, the sound is nice, but would have been better if electric action had not allowed the builder to stuff the organ into chambers, all willy-nilly without divisional integrity. You can almost move the console into the parking lot and there are more pistons than stops and more stops than ranks, but the sacrifice (to me) is not worth it. It could have been a really fine instrument. Even sadder is that the potential is there. (you may wake up now!)   Bruce Cornely ============ o o o o ============== o o o ______________ o o o o o o ______________ o o o OHS ======================== AGO  
(back) Subject: Prevent Spam! From: KeithBWill@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:35:41 -0400 (EDT)   I'm out of the lurker's arena just long enough to share this really useful bit of info. Found a place on the net with tons of programs to block spam of all types. Some of it has a user fee, some is free, but if you are getting the garbage I am, it is a chance to be freed up a bit. Address is www.zdnet.com Hope this helps. Judith  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:37:21 -0500   >Folks, > >I have been interested in the discussion of this topic, but come from a >church >where the pipe organ proposal is not feasible. I wonder, if we go back >to the >original questions - to get some candid comments about the better >digital >instruments - I am currently looking, and would value any comments which >might >help use make a better selection. > >Best wishes, > >Andrew Wallace > Andrew   While a pipe organ is the ideal solution, it sometimes isn't feasible in certain situations which, as I read it, covers your situation. Some years ago I was Director of Music for a large Catholic Church on the East coast that had a Hammond. The Church was designed in such a way that it was impossible to install a pipe organ. The chambers were just large "broom closets" high up on the walls in front. They were designed for holding speakers period. In this situation the only option was to install an electronic. At least it was much better than the Hammond.   No matter which electronic you go with, you need to make sure that when it is installed that it is voiced for the room. I have played both good and bad Allens and Rodgers. The difference is usually that the good ones were installed by someone who spent some time voicing it for the room. The bad ones are usually ones that are delivered and connected up without any adjustments. I can think of one Allen TO that I have heard that is hard to tell from a pipe organ. A good part of that is because, 1.) it has plenty of amplification and speakers for the space it is installed in and 2.) the installer spent 3 or 4 days voicing it for the space it is in. Final voicing and finishing are just as important for electronics as it is for pipe organs. You must make sure that the person doing this project knows what they are doing.   From your post I can't tell if you are the organist or just someone that is involved with getting this new instrument. My suggestion is to take your time with this decision. Approach it the same as if you were getting a pipe organ. Visit various installations of all of the companies involved. If you are not the organist, take him/her along with you when you visit these installations. Have him/her play the organs and listen to them, find out if any time has been spent in voicing and finishing them and make your decision from there. This is a big decision involving lots of money. Don't let some salesman sweet talk you into something that may not be suitable for your church.   Hope this helps.   David     ********************************** David Scribner Black Iris Consulting 4775 Balmoral Drive Pensacola, FL 32504-9174 850-478-9635 - Voice 850-476-0711 - Fax david@blackiris.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:51:00   Said I: >> Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this >> point in time.   Andries queried: >Why use drapes at all !   If it were up to me.... if it were up to the current organist... if it were up to... oh well. It isn't. This one is out of our hands. It's the decision of some committee.   Thanks for your suggestions, tho. If they ask my opinion, I will surely tell them! :)   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Any Thoughts... From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:20:43   I know y'all have been chomping at the bit, waiting for my eloquence on this issue, but let's face it, folks: this issue has been hashed and re-hashed and re-re-hashed more times than I can count.   Unlike its appearances on another list, at least here everybody seems pretty friendly, still, which is great, and I think we should tip our hats to the owners for keeping a watchful eye on the goings-on. (!)   But getting back to the issue at hand - the minister at my church is new, having just started back in June, so he probably forgot that our Allen MDS-60 is less than 2 years old when he got this excited look in his eye and asked, "How would you feel about us building a PIPE ORGAN here at Bethany?" To which I just smiled and said, "You must be new here . . ."   Please excuse my gross ignorance of New York geography, but just where the heck is Wappingers Falls anyway? Is it a suburb of a major metropolis? If not, I suggest they stick with their plans to purchase an electronic digital. My reason for saying this is based on my numerous travels through small towns in central and east Texas; I cannot begin to tell you just how many little churches there are that have dwindling memberships and who are now adopting the praise band approach to attract the young 'uns. Plus, the older members who supported the purchase and maintenance of the previous generations of church music-makers are retiring and moving closer to the cities where geriatric medical care is more abundant.   OTOH, if Wappingers Falls is close to a large city, AND if St Mary's is an old enough church that has weathered financial problems of the past and can therefore look forward to being able to provide proper and *timely* maintenance work on the new instrument in the future, then I see nothing wrong in getting a small pipe organ. But be warned - there will be those in the congregation who base their decisions on mathematics and logic first, with the sound of the instrument being near the bottom of the list of their decision criteria. These people will be the ones who say, "Now lemme get this straight - we pay Allen about $60K and they take our old Wurli in trade and we get 3 manuals, 50-odd stops and somewhere near 185 ranks (including those on the MIDI), plus a pretty good sound and the capability of performing music from just about any historical period, too? Or we can take our $60K and get 3 ranks and 10 stops on that beautiful arrangement of wood and metal pipes we saw in the catalogue? Or we can take our $60K and use it as a down payment on a larger but older used pipe organ? Hmmm, that's a toughie..." If these people control the money in your church, then maybe you ought to check out Allen's webpage at <http://www.allenorgan.com/homep.htm> .   In short, look at St Mary's financial past and its projected future. Look at the community's current and project demographics. Then go for what your heart feels is best. And don't forget that with gifted musicians and enthusiastic members, your church can produce music that will touch the minds and souls of generations to come.   As for your sequencer question, we have one on our Allen, and I've found it to be quite useful on a weekly basis. It can hold about 20-30 minutes worth of music. I recorded the church's offertory response (LASST UNS ERFREUEN) at the very beginning, because I am occasionally caught off-guard at that point in the service, having just played for this or that group or soloist and suddenly, I'M ON. So if my music isn't ready, I just slide the drawer open, hit a couple of buttons, and we're in business - the organ cranks up, and few people, if any, notice that I'm sitting there looking for the next hymn while the organ plays on. Other uses: (1) our sanctuary is octagonal in shape. I sit at one edge, near a door. The organ sounds different in the middle of the room since the speakers are hidden in light bays surrounding the congregation. I record a loud section or a soft section of a piece in the sequencer, then I play it back and listen to it from different spots in the room. (2) I practice a piece, record it and then listen to it critically; I can catch mistakes better when I'm not playing since my hands and feet are still and I can concentrate. (3) I've been working on this for fun - I recorded the orchestral reduction of the Bach D-minor Harpsichord Concerto (1st mvt) into the sequencer. Then, I play it back and play the solo part on a MIDI harpsichord stop. It's tough because the sequencer plays what I played *exactly* as I played it, without any give-&-take in tempi and expression. And cadenzas are a b***h! I never can seem to come in just right with the 'orchestra' afterwards. If I ever do bring it off, and learn to do so consistently, it will be a real feather in my cap. (4) Finally, I occasionally take a Sunday off, and my substitute doesn't like the pedal part of the offertory response, so he just kicks on the sequencer and lets me play it, even though I'm not really there!   Whichever way you go, PO or EO, I'd be sure to include a complete MIDI and sequencer installation as well, even if for no other reason than to let the praise band hookup their keyboards into your MIDI ports. That way, all of you can be making music together, which is the way it should be.   Sorry to rattle on so... Hope this helps!   \/\/\        
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? Mellotone From: Nelson and Tracy Denton <ndenton434@bigwave.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:32:02   At 12:14 PM 8/17/97 PDT, you wrote: >Hi, folks! > >The sanctuary of Abington Church is being repainted. Along with that, >they want to replace the drapes that are in front of the chambers of the >organ. There is active pipework in front of the drapes, and the >enclosed chambers as well as the rest of the "exposed" Great are behind >them. > >Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this >point in time. > >So I put this question to all of you: What material should we use for >these drapes so that we can get the maximum of sound and blending >through them? The chambers face cross-chancel, btw. > >Thanks! > --Shirley   Hi Shirley   I use "Mellotone" Acoustic Grill Cloth for most of the organ cases that I build. It's manufactured in the U. S. and is one of only a few materials that are suitable for public buildings that meet most fire codes. The material comes in many styles and colours and does not block the sound of the organ.   Many of you probably have seen it before. It is a stiff woven plastic cloth that is designed for use on organ caseworks and other such places. It has been used in churches for 40+ years in this area without any signs of wear, fading, or sag. The Mellotone people also make the same grill cloth for speakers that you commonly see on home speakers.   To install simply staple it in place.   The fabric comes in 36" and 72" wide rolls and the company sells in 10 square yard or 25 square yard+ bolts. The price is about the same as good quality drapery material.   As a even cheaper alternative we sometimes use ordinary "cotton broad cloth" This is a very light cloth that works well as a method of hiding organ actions behind display pipes. It's very cheap but only lasts about 20 years.   If you must resort to drapes for your casework. try to make them out of the lightest thinest material possible. Avoid heavy velvets and light blocking livingroom drapery cloth.     I'll send along the Phone Number and Address for Mellotone tonight. It's at work. Nelson Denton R. A. Denton And Son Pipe Organ Builders 140 Mount Albion Road Hamilton Ontario L8K 5S8   905 561 1331 voice and fax e-mail   ndenton434@bigwave.ca radenton@bigwave.ca  
(back) Subject: wedding nightmare list available I think From: Nelson and Tracy Denton <ndenton434@bigwave.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:58:13   >Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:57:26 >To: PIPORG-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >From: Nelson and Tracy Denton <ndenton434@bigwave.ca> >Subject: wedding nightmare list available I think > >A list of the wedding nightmares is available from me. It consists of 120+ e-mails so be sure your system can handle this much at one sitting. I've found that you can send e-mail in bulk with Eudora Lite simply by sending the entire mailbox as in >"AWedding.mbx " and "Awedding.toc" as attachments to an ordinary e-mail. substitute your own "mailbox" for those messages that you wish to send as a group. > >It seems to work but I'm not going to send this out unless you request it from me personally. I'd get killed by the members by sending them all out to the list!!!!! > >You can get the list by sending me e-mail to ndenton434@bigwave.ca > >I hope it works ?? >I take no responsibility for crashing AOL >HHHHHHEEEEE HHHEEEE HHHEEEE boy i'd like to get even with them. ;-))))))) Nelson Denton R. A. Denton And Son Pipe Organ Builders 140 Mount Albion Road Hamilton Ontario L8K 5S8   905 561 1331 voice and fax e-mail   ndenton434@bigwave.ca radenton@bigwave.ca  
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: "Paul F. Stapel" <pstapel@spectra.net> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:38:29 -0400   At 10:51 AM 8/18/97, you wrote: >Said I: >>> Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this >>> point in time. > >Andries queried: >>Why use drapes at all ! > >If it were up to me.... if it were up to the current organist... if it were >up to... oh well. It isn't. This one is out of our hands. It's the >decision of some committee. > >Thanks for your suggestions, tho. If they ask my opinion, I will surely >tell them! :) > > --Shirley > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >   Shirley,   If the drapes must be outside the chambers, and there is no light coming from the chambers, shades open or closed, then why not use sheers or similar material--- they won't look like velvet but they will let as much sound through as open grill cloth and still look like drapes, even if pleated. Their are companies who specialise in grill cloth with varying levels of sound pass-through which they document...the more open, the more one can see through them, the more lighting near the cloth, the more goes into the chambers --- since your committee is probably one of those which think pipes are ugly (too bad, so sad) , at least you can let them know you are 'trying' to help them out in their plight -- meanwhile, try to get them into a few more grand churches which have exposed pipes and see how nice they look.   Good luck and best wishes   Paul Stapel 607 773 1495    
(back) Subject: Re: Drapery material to "hide" chambers? From: "Jim Saenger" <chamade@Early.COM> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 13:15:25 PDT   Screen material of Nylon or similar non-metallic screen comes in lighter and darker colors and can be pleated easily.       ---------- > At 10:51 AM 8/18/97, you wrote: > >Said I: > >>> Leaving the drapes off completely is apparently not an option at this > >>> point in time. > > > >Andries queried: > >>Why use drapes at all ! > > > >If it were up to me.... if it were up to the current organist... if it were > >up to... oh well. It isn't. This one is out of our hands. It's the > >decision of some committee. > > > >Thanks for your suggestions, tho. If they ask my opinion, I will surely > >tell them! :) > > > > --Shirley > > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > Shirley, > > If the drapes must be outside the chambers, and there is no light coming > from the chambers, shades open or closed, then why not use sheers or similar > material--- they won't look like velvet but they will let as much sound > through as open grill cloth and still look like drapes, even if pleated. > Their are companies who specialise in grill cloth with varying levels of > sound pass-through which they document...the more open, the more one can see > through them, the more lighting near the cloth, the more goes into the > chambers --- since your committee is probably one of those which think pipes > are ugly (too bad, so sad) , at least you can let them know you are 'trying' > to help them out in their plight -- meanwhile, try to get them into a few > more grand churches which have exposed pipes and see how nice they look. > > Good luck and best wishes > > Paul Stapel > 607 773 1495 > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >      
(back) Subject: Re: the tracker backer :-) From: SCoonrod@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:46:21 -0400 (EDT)   OK Bruce----I read all (!) and am happy now :-) Randy  
(back) Subject: more pipedreaming From: Ronnymn@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:03:10 -0400 (EDT)   This analogy may be obscure, but I just changed my color cartridge in the printer. Its amazing what that little devil can do. Those little contacts with some didgital instructions, copy artworks. Made me think, have they tried to "shrink" the pipe organ by combining it with modern tech sorta like this. Have movable, programable air nozzels, jets, mouths, etc. that would alter the pipe speech and tone by a stop knob. In otherwords one pipe could be instructed to sound like many different pipes. Perhaps even putting pipes within pipes. Pipes that could extend or retract slightly on command for different voices, tuning. Could they make a grand sounding pipe organ with real air (which would be a great step in simulating pipesounds in itself) that might contain only one maybe two visable ranks yet controlled by the computer to sound like many. Dream on Ron  
(back) Subject: Draperies Query From: "basset3@warwick.net" <u1005593@warwick.net> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:35:34 -0700   Shirley--decide what you want (even if it is to have nothing) and then just go DIVA! I want it and I don't have to give reasons. If you want me and love my playing in church, then do exactly as I say. You will love the sound! Why not? Robert Clooney  
(back) Subject: Re: Draperies Query From: Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:55:45   At 18:35 08/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >Shirley--decide what you want (even if it is to have nothing) and >then just go DIVA! I want it and I don't have to give reasons. If you >want me and love my playing in church, then do exactly as I say. You >will love the sound! Why not? Robert Clooney   Heeheehee.... partly because I'm only the assistant?   Seriously tho. I've gotten things done before by taking that stance. If I feel strongly enough about something, I'll do my research and homework on it, and then sell it. Sort of what I'm doing through these posts.   Thanks to some posters, I have the name of a company and the type of material to go after. And when the subject comes up with this committee, I'll be ready to suggest just the right shade of blue. :)   Thanks to everybody for your help on this one. :)   --Shirley