PipeChat Digest #40 - Wednesday, August 20, 1997
 
 


(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Steskinner@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:12:48 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-08-17 15:33:35 EDT, Bruce Cornely writes:   << A pipe organ, responsibly built without electrical cheating--unification, borrowing, lights and pistons, and other nonmusical accessories, will serve your parish for generations>>   C'mon, Bruce--some parishes manage to get by even if they do have electronic "cheating" like pistons--such as every major and minor church music program in the country in every denomination. I use pistons to change registration--very handy when going from a robust sound to something more delicate on a 5/103 rank Schantz/Skinner. Also comes in handy to add some umph to the pedal while holding a chord in both hands. Not necessary for baroque practice, but we do other kinds of music in church!   Steven Skinner First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA      
(back) Subject: Free Blowers From: "Robert E. Wilhelm, Jr." <wilhelre@sterlingdi.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:15:34 -0400   A friend has advised me that he has two Kinetic blowers available to a good home -- FREE. The specs are.....   #1 5HP 10"WP 1000CFM 1165RPM with 3HP, 3-phase, 1750RPM motor belted to 1078RPM at the fan shaft   #2 1/3HP 3.5"WP 400CFM 1165RPM no motor   Both will be cut up for firewood and the steel frames cut up for metal scrap if no one has any interest by September 1st. They must go. While I have not seen them, I'm told they are in good condition, the bearings are fine. If no one is interested in the complete machines, the owner is willing to let parts go.   If you are interested, please do not contact me. More information is available from Jay Cummings at 302/998-8195. There is an answering machine on the phone.     Robert E. Wilhelm, Jr. Maintenance Crew Leader The 3/66 Dickinson Kimball    
(back) Subject: music request (non-organic) From: Harry Martenas <harrym@epix.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:00:55 -0400   I'm playing for a university convocation Friday (8/22) morning. They want a processional and recessional, but the selection is up to me.   The hall does not have an organ so I will be playing on their 9 month old Steinway concert grand.   Any suggestions for what to play?   Thanks,   Harry Martenas    
(back) Subject: Re: Forwarded Message: Rebuilding Hinners and Albersten Organ From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:58:40 -0500 (CDT)   > I am currently rebuilding a Hinners and Albersten Organ. I do not know >what year it is from but the patents are from 1887. >Also, parts of the organ are from Hammond patent 1885. Does anyone have info?   I can tell you a little about the history of the Hinners company. John L. Hinners (1846-1906), a long time employee of Mason & Hamlin reed organs, began building reed organs on his own in Pekin, Illinois in 1879, as the Hinners Reed Organ Co. In 1881 he took into partnership J. J. Fink, and the firm became Hinners, Fink & Co. In 1885 Uddo J. Albertson bought out Fink's share of the business and the firm became Hinners & Albertson. It was at this period they began building pipe organs as well as reed organs. Hinners & Albertson were in business 1885-1902, after which Mr. Albertson retired and the firm became the Hinners Organ Company. When John L. Hinners died in 1906 he was succeeded by his son Arthur W. Hinners (1873-1955), who ran the firm until it went out of business in the Great Depression in 1936. After 1936 Mr. Hinners became the Wicks representative here in St. Louis, Missouri. John L. Hinners had two patents I know of -- one of 1881 for a reed organ action, the other of 1885 for a tracker pin. I am puzzled as to what the Hammond patent would be -- the only Hammond I know of (besides Laurens Hammond, the inventor of the Hammond Organ!) who had organ patents was J. H. Hammond, Jr. of the Aeolian Company, but he was at work in the 1920's.   John      
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:00:19 -0400 (EDT)   Sez Karl Keller:   >Has anyone ever seen an UNREAL pipe organ ???   I believe that Sunday night I saw one such thing. I attended Monty Bennett's recital on the 205 rk. 5 manual mammoth Moller at Calvary Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. I entered the sanctuary with the knowledge that the entire set of 16' en-chamade Millenial Trumpets were mounted at the front of the case, as well as that the facade contained several of the lowest notes in the 32' flue pipes, but when I walked in, I could not believe my eyes. This organ is comparable to the one described in Charlie Lester's epic "The Temple of Music," which may be read on the Piporg-L webpage (http://www.albany.edu/~piporg-l is the address, I think). I sat in the front pew marveling at the monstrous casework for better than half an hour, then the recital started. It contained music from Lubeck to gospel, and everywhere in between. The organ contains every stop that would ever be useful to any organist (theater organists included). The crowning glories, at least to my ears, were the five (count 'em, FIVE) sets of en-chamade trumpets, and the 5 possibilities for 64' approximations (one 64' Gross Cornet, four 32's and a 21 1/3'). During the concert, my grandmother, a bona fide *old lady* commented that she didn't think that the music was loud enough. This was music to my ears, or perhaps it was the Bach-Fox Now Thank We All Our God.   After the concert, I was allowed to play this beauty, which was even better than listening to it in concert. I do admit that finding the correct sounds among the five manuals and three expression pedals was a bit hard, especially when I accidentally started the middle portion (G major) of the Lemmens fanfare twice on two different ancillary en-chamade trumpets. I finally decided to go ahead on the choir manual with no expression, and finishing the final arpeggiated chord on the 16' 8' 4' Millenial Trumpets has to be the highlight of my short life as an organist.   Any time that you have a chance to hear or play this organ, don't miss it. It is truly an experience that is not easily equaled.   _____ | |_____ | || |_____ |Stephen || |_____ ______|F.P. Karr| || |_____ ______ |o o || || || || || |_____ | o o| | o o||Student Organist || || |_____ |o o | |o o || || || || || || || | | o o| | o o||Director of Music and Organist, | |o o | |o o || Bethlehem Lutheran Church|| | | o o| | o o|| || || || || || || | |o o | |o o || Aiken, SC || || || || | | o o| | o o| \ / \ / \U/ \S/ \A/ \ / \ / |o o | |o o | V V V V V V V | o o| | o o|_____________________________________|o o | |o o || E E | E E E | E E | E E E | E E | || o o| | o o||_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_||o o |    
(back) Subject: New Web Site From: Giwro@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:53:19 -0400 (EDT)   ***********Posted to piporg & pipechat************   Come by and check out the new website for Evensong Music, Media and Graphics. We publish mostly choral and organ music. We are located at:   http://members.aol.com/Evnsong/pgone.html   Enjoy!   Jonathan Orwig  
(back) Subject: Akai CDrom POrg samples St. Alain (WTBuy) From: Ron Pearcy <ronniep@clear.net.nz> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 06:37:53 +0000 (GMT)     Greetings Folks,   I wish to purchase the AKAI CDrom of Pipe Organ samples ex the Cathedral Saint Alain.   If anyone has this CD no longer required, please e-mail me advising price   Cheers, Ronnie -- ----- Ron Pearcy <ronniep@clear.net.nz> 17 Donegal Crescent Greenswood, Greenmeadows, Napier, New Zealand -------    
(back) Subject: Unison Off stops From: "Thomas E. Gregory" <tgregory@carroll1.cc.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:14:08 -0600 (CDT)   Jim Swift wrote that he seldom uses the unison off stops.   I find them VERY useful for solo combinations.   For example: SW: Prin (or flute 4), S-S4, S-S16, U off. This makes a delightful solo stop, especially if the trem is well regulated.   I also find that some of the ranks in our Skinner have an especially beautiful and expressive quality (this is true in the 16 & 4 foot stops. To make them play in a more reasonable part of the keyboard I will use the 16 or 4 coupler, plus the U off.   It's too bad that the U off is not connected to the pulpit!     Tom Gregory  
(back) Subject: Re: Unison Off stops From: "Mark Huth" <mhuth@rodgers.rain.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:36:10 PDT       > It's too bad that the U off is not connected to the pulpit! > > Tom Gregory   You'd like to hear the sermon an octave higher or lower?   Mark     Mark Huth Rodgers Instrument Corporation mhuth@rodgers.rain.com   Hangman Tagline: T _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _    
(back) Subject: Re: Calvary Church Moller From: SCoonrod@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:06:00 -0400 (EDT)   Stephen-- How were the acoustics (live?) The recordings of this instrument are glorious, but I've heard reports that actually the room is quite dead. I was upset when a friend who had heard it in person was so negative, because I am quite fond of Moller's last few years of work. RandyT  
(back) Subject: Re: Calvary Church Moller From: SCoonrod@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:07:08 -0400 (EDT)   Stephen-- How were the acoustics (live?) The recordings of this instrument are glorious, but I've heard reports that actually the room is quite dead. I was upset when a friend who had heard it in person was so negative, because I am quite fond of Moller's last few years of work. RandyT  
(back) Subject: Re: Unison Off stops (with humor) From: Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:18:10   At 14:36 08/19/97 PDT, you wrote: > > >> It's too bad that the U off is not connected to the pulpit! >> >> Tom Gregory > >You'd like to hear the sermon an octave higher or lower? > >Mark   Heeheehee.. or maybe at 2 2/3'? I saw an organ stop recently at 8/9'. How about leaving the unison on, and pull the 8/9' for the sermon? Nobody'd sleep through *that* sermon! :)   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Unison Off stops (with humor) From: "Mark Huth" <mhuth@rodgers.rain.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:53:26 PDT       > Heeheehee.. or maybe at 2 2/3'? I saw an organ stop recently at 8/9'. How > about leaving the unison on, and pull the 8/9' for the sermon? Nobody'd > sleep through *that* sermon! :)   You can almost *hear* that voice, can't you?   Mark     Mark Huth Rodgers Instrument Corporation mhuth@rodgers.rain.com   Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.    
(back) Subject: Re: rebuilding, pouches, etc. From: dougcampbell@juno.com (Douglas A. Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:50:17 EDT     On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:39:55 -0400 cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) writes: >If the organ had had mechanical action, there would be no pouches. >There is only one pallet per note per chest. Much less leather to >worry >about, plus this is not pouch leather. It's just plain good >stewardship, and responsible use of our environmental gifts. > > Bruce Cornely Bruce,   According to Stanley Sheer, Vice-President of Casavant, the long term costs associated with a mechanical action will equal the costs associated for a similiar sized electro-pneumatic instrument. (100 year projection).     Douglas A. Campbell formerly in Skaneateles, NY now in Jackson, WY  
(back) Subject: Re: Unison Off stops (with humor) From: "Jim Saenger" <chamade@Early.COM> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 18:32:39 PDT   Seems like someone is looking for what E. P. Biggs used to call the Rector Ejector.   ---------- > At 14:36 08/19/97 PDT, you wrote: > > > > > >> It's too bad that the U off is not connected to the pulpit! > >> > >> Tom Gregory > > > >You'd like to hear the sermon an octave higher or lower? > > > >Mark > > Heeheehee.. or maybe at 2 2/3'? I saw an organ stop recently at 8/9'. How > about leaving the unison on, and pull the 8/9' for the sermon? Nobody'd > sleep through *that* sermon! :) > > --Shirley > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: dougcampbell@juno.com (Douglas A. Campbell) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:50:17 EDT     On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) MFulk70776@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 97-08-17 22:10:28 EDT, you write: > ><< > Why spend an average of $ 30,000.00 every 20 years or so on a >new >electronic when you can buy a well > built pipe organ for $ 120,00.00 and pay only about $ 500.00 a year >for >maintanance. Then after about 80 years > you spend about $ 3,000.00 for a releathering. > Think about it. >> > >People just will never agree, even on the facts of this pipe vs. >electric >argument. >It appears to me that it just can never be truly settled. >I really enjoy hearing points of view about this. >However, this whole thread went down only a few months ago, and even >the >"facts" that you mention were disputed.   I have developed a rather comprehensive financial model of the relative costs between a pipe organ and an electronic.   This model is church specific and takes into account the variables each church will face.   If anyone is interested, please email me privately.     Douglas A. Campbell formerly in Skaneateles, NY now in Jackson, WY soon to be back in NY  
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine From: "Roger" <pamnroy@wolfenet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:50:02 -0700   It seems to me that the conclusion from this thread is that when you buy an organ, either pipe or electronic, and intend to keep it in top shape for many years, you have committed yourself to a long term financial obligation. My local city final recognized that it has a similar problem with parks. Many people would leave them land for a park but would not leave any money to maintain it. Now the city only accepts the land if it comes with an endowment to maintain it. Churches should probably think the same way about organs. And the provisions for this should recognize that tastes change overtime so that whether the organ be pipe or electronic some committee will want to completely revise it about every 20 years.   ---------- > From: Douglas A. Campbell <dougcampbell@juno.com> > To: pipechat@pipechat.org > Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated/Here's mine > Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 4:50 PM > > > On Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:32:54 -0400 (EDT) MFulk70776@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 97-08-17 22:10:28 EDT, you write: > > > ><< > > Why spend an average of $ 30,000.00 every 20 years or so on a > >new > >electronic when you can buy a well > > built pipe organ for $ 120,00.00 and pay only about $ 500.00 a year > >for > >maintanance. Then after about 80 years > > you spend about $ 3,000.00 for a releathering. > > Think about it. >> > > > >People just will never agree, even on the facts of this pipe vs. > >electric > >argument. > >It appears to me that it just can never be truly settled. > >I really enjoy hearing points of view about this. > >However, this whole thread went down only a few months ago, and even > >the > >"facts" that you mention were disputed. > > I have developed a rather comprehensive financial model of the relative > costs between a pipe organ and an electronic. > > This model is church specific and takes into account the variables each > church will face. > > If anyone is interested, please email me privately. > > > Douglas A. Campbell > formerly in Skaneateles, NY > now in Jackson, WY > soon to be back in NY > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Calvary Church Moller From: robfult@Perigee.net (Robert Fulton) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:17:36 -0400   Randy --   Sorry to ask this, but I'm very new to the list... I assume you are talking about Calvary Church in Charlotte? If so, I just attended a concert there Sunday evening (AGO Summer Series). The delay in the room is 4.8 seconds or so... Acoustically, it's wonderful (room designed around the organ instead of vice-versa). Of course, I may be slightly partial, living in the same city. I believe the only thing that would make it even better would be to pull the aisle carpet out -- and the padding in the pews :).. I had the wonderful experience of watching them put the Moller in <one of the high-points in my life ;) >.   -Robert Fulton - robfult@perigee.net       -----Original Message----- From: SCoonrod@aol.com <SCoonrod@aol.com> To: pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Calvary Church Moller       >Stephen-- How were the acoustics (live?) The recordings of this >instrument are glorious, but I've heard reports that actually the room is >quite dead. I was upset when a friend who had heard it in person was so >negative, because I am quite fond of Moller's last few years of work. > RandyT > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Calvary Church Moller From: Stephen F P Karr <karrlist@scescape.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 22:40:58 -0400 (EDT)   >How were the acoustics (live?)   I thought they were marvelous. The only thing (as was already stated) that would improve it is to remove all of the thick cushioning on the pews and the carpeting. One thing that helps greatly is the fact that the entire wall around the casework (nearly 80 feet high, and I think 100 feet wide) is marble. 3'x3' blocks compose that wall.   >The recordings of this instrument are glorious, but I've heard reports that >actually the room is quite dead.   Not from what I pereived. It's not quite so live as, say, St. Paul's, London, but it holds its own for a padded church.   >I was upset when a friend who had heard it in person was so negative, because I am >quite fond of Moller's last few years of work.   Well, from a person who played it (and I'm sure you can get more feedback from Monty Bennett), I thoroughly enjoyed it. A position there is on my top ten most desired posts for later in my life.   _____ | |_____ | || |_____ |Stephen || |_____ ______|F.P. Karr| || |_____ ______ |o o || || || || || |_____ | o o| | o o||Student Organist || || |_____ |o o | |o o || || || || || || || | | o o| | o o||Director of Music and Organist, | |o o | |o o || Bethlehem Lutheran Church|| | | o o| | o o|| || || || || || || | |o o | |o o || Aiken, SC || || || || | | o o| | o o| \ / \ / \U/ \S/ \A/ \ / \ / |o o | |o o | V V V V V V V | o o| | o o|_____________________________________|o o | |o o || E E | E E E | E E | E E E | E E | || o o| | o o||_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_||o o |    
(back) Subject: Re: rebuilding, pouches, etc. From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:44:23 -0500 (CDT)   At 07:50 PM 8/19/97 EDT, Douglas Campbell wrote:   >According to Stanley Sheer, Vice-President of Casavant, the long term >costs associated with a mechanical action will equal the costs associated >for a similiar sized electro-pneumatic instrument. (100 year projection).   I find this very hard to believe, and it certainly does not accord with my experience. The 1862 2-15 Robson organ in the church I grew up in in England has a tracker organ that went 107 years without restoration -- it was admittedly pretty well unplayable by then, but all the same ... The Tannenberg organ at Hebron Lutheran Church, Madison, VA, went over 150 years without restoration, and then only needed a relatively small amount of work. Of course a lot depends on how well the tracker is built, and there is a lot of junk out there. In the first 25 years of its existence, the only maintenance required on the large three-manual 1967 Von Beckerath organ at St. Michael's, New York City, was the rebushing of the pedalboard -- something that would have been required in an electro-pneumatic action organ anyway. The instrument has since been cleaned, but this was largely prophylactic, since it was still functioning perfectly.   A lot also depends on the electro-pneumatic action. In an Austin Universal Chest, and in a slider chest with electro-pneumatic pulldowns, there is not actually a lot of leather to need releathering, and a major overhaul is going to be comparable with a major overhaul for a tracker, though I suspect it is going to be needed a little more frequently. With a unit, or ventil or pitman chest organ (pitman including most Mollers, Aeolian-Skinners, Casavants, Schantz's, Reuters, etc.), there is quite a lot of leather, and releathering is an extremely expensive job. Very fine instruments though they may be, in the case of pitman organs (including Casavants) I do not see how a tracker could possibly prove to be as expensive in terms of long term maintenance costs. I would suggest, in fact, that the long-term maintenance costs would over a 100 year period be two or three times as much. I find it hard to believe that even slider chest electro-pneumatic organs would not prove to be 20 or 30% more expensive in maintenance over that sort of period.   Would it be possible to find out a little more about the basis on which Mr. Sheer makes his assertion?   John    
(back) Subject: Re: Any thoughts would be appreciated From: Steskinner@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:21:31 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-08-18 09:34:06 EDT, Matt writes:   << Also you must consider the respective dealers and their track records. This is very important and could very well be THE most important consideration. Be sure to contact nearby churches and individuals who can provide unbiased information on their experiences with both the instruments and the dealers. >>   When I was an organ consultant, I insisted often and loudly to the committee that they were to listen to the organ, NOT the salesman. They ended up buying the organ that sounded best to them, even though they liked the salesman for the "other" brand. IMO it is the sound of the instrument that should be the most important factor in determining the choice, with all other considerations falling to 2nd or further place.   Steven Skinner First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA