PipeChat Digest #181 - Tuesday, December 30, 1997
 
Re: PIPECHAT ADMIN NOTE--PLEASE READ: Fieldler etc.  -- Off  	 topic.
  by Dr. Darryl Miller <OrganDok@safari.net>
Re: Help!
  by Jon C. Habermaas <joncharles@ameritech.net>
Chicago Theatre Post Horn (CROSS POSTED)
  by Jon C. Habermaas <joncharles@ameritech.net>
Weddings & New Year's Resolutions
  by Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com>
Re: Help!
  by Shirley <pnst@itw.com>
Re: Help! - IRC
  by David Scribner <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Weddings & New Year's Resolutions
  by Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net>
Information, please
  by dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com>
Organ Blower suppliers
  by Prestant16 <Prestant16@aol.com>
Re: Weddings & New Year's Resolutions
  by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
"Pepper Pot Novelties"
  by Bob and Sally Evans <orgnloft@Ma.ultranet.com>
non-organic conductors (like salt water or copper)
  by CDKrug <CDKrug@aol.com>
Re: Fiedler vs Williams vs Lockhart
  by Anderson W. Wacaser <wacaser@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Information, please
  by RMaryman <RMaryman@aol.com>
ill-tempered organ
  by Dave Pitzer <dpitzer@sonic.net>
Re: Fiedler vs Williams vs Lockhart
  by Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: ill-tempered organ
  by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: ill-tempered organ
  by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: PIPECHAT ADMIN NOTE--PLEASE READ: Fieldler etc. -- Off topic. From: "Dr. Darryl Miller" <OrganDok@safari.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:49:40 -0500   Shirley wrote: > > It's the "Let it Snow" thread that I'd like to see an end to, > personally..... that left organs and music a long time ago... but > that's just my opinion... :)   Uh, Oh, Shirley, I'll plead the fifth. I'm guilty. I know it. I violated the rules. But, because of that conversation I have a new friend. Judy O is on her way down here to South Florida and is coming down to play the organ. So . . . I'll get to meet another list member this week!   Now . . . that's fun!!!!!!!   And as they say at the oft-boycotted and my fave place, Disneyworld: "Have a Great Day!" (as opposed to K-mart -- "thank you for shopping at K-Mart!")   Darryl by the Sea Fort Lauderdale  
(back) Subject: Re: Help! From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <joncharles@ameritech.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:21:55 -0600   I'll answer this just in case David did not pick up. New server is still in the testing stage and the nickname thing is to keep us out until the bugs are all found...Pipe chat will still be on anothernet server tonight with the new server going on line Friday (2nd). Servers for another net are:   neato.ca.us.another.net (ports 6667, 7000, 7010)   together.vt.us.another.net (ports 6667, 7010)   irc.another.net (will pick server at random)   When you get into another net look for #pipechat. It is important that you include the # sign and that there is no space between the #sign and pipechat. If I've given you more information than you need..chalk it up to my compulsive behavior disorder...good luck..hope to catch you later. If you are a night owl maybe I'll catch you on the chat...if you get on tell them JonCharles said hello and I'll be looking for "night-owls" when I get home from work...   Help this helps,   regards,   Jon   JILLIAN SCHULTHEIS wrote: > > I cant get on the new server for Irc.... It says i have an invalid nick. > > Jillian K. Schultheis > organgeek@geocities.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Chicago Theatre Post Horn (CROSS POSTED) From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <joncharles@ameritech.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:37:33 -0600   As of now the pipes are still missing and the investigation is on going. I do not want to re-visit the FLAMES of yesterday, but there is a piece of information that we overlooked which might help to locate the pipes. WurliTzer did not make a large number of 15" English Post Horns, usually they were only included on the larger organs (21 ranks or more). If someone purchased a 15" WurliTzer Post Horn over the last two years it could be the missing set. Here is the important information that was not previously covered. The misssing set was originally part of the Uptown (4/28) organ and was moved to the Chicago and installed at the request of Jesse Craawford during the 20's. Even though it was not part of the original organ it is considered to be historically part of the organ from the Jesse Crawford era. The Uptown organ was removed to Whiting Indiana for installation in the Hoosier Theatre and later broken up and parted out. Someone could have purchased the Post Horn identified as coming from the Uptown organ and not known that is was purlioned from the Chicago. If you know anyone who purchased a set of pipes identified as the Uptown Post Horn they may very well have the Chicago Theatre pipes. On the surface it would certainly apppeared as a legitimate sale.   We in the Chicago area would be very grateful for any help in restoring these pipes.     regards,   Jon C. Habermaas  
(back) Subject: Weddings & New Year's Resolutions From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:12:50   Hello, Folks!   I carry a small, pocket-size calendar with me every day to help me remember appointments, and so I don't schedule two weddings for the same time, etc. It shows one week on two pages, with a wise or humorous saying at the top of one page. One such saying that is coming up is something like "May your troubles last as long as your New Year's resolutions!" Made me smile - I hope it made you smile, too.   I played a wedding last Saturday (12/27/97) that highlighted a problem I have with weddings now and then. My problem was with the soloist. I try to get my wife to sing solos for weddings whenever I can, but this gal was a friend of the bride, so getting my wife in there was downright impossible. Now, mind you, my wife loves to sing for weddings, and she does a dang good job, too - she can learn a piece overnight without having me play it for her over and over again, plus she has a large repertoire: classical, country-western, you name it, she can probably sing it, if we can find music in her key (and if we can't, we just buy one in the wrong key and I enter it into our music program here on the PC and print it out in another key). So, whenever I can, I ask a bride if she needs a soloist, and I tell her about my wife if she does. Usually, however, the soloist has already been selected, as was the case in this wedding.   So, here's what happened: during the weeks preceding the wedding, the mother of the groom (she is one of my coworkers, so I saw her nearly every day) reminded me frequently (dare I say "nagged"?) to meet with the soloist who was singing two songs for the wedding. One song was a dynamite arrangement of Stookey's "Wedding Song," which makes the song totally playable and almost artistic because of the wonderful piano accompaniment - I love playing that version of the song, and I now refuse to play the original. The other song was by Leon Patillo, and it has this little line that repeats "You are flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone..." and it fits a black gospel style real well. The singer was a nice black lady who knew the second song but not the first. When I first talked to her on the phone, I could tell I was in trouble - she said that she couldn't read music, but that she just learned it by listening to recordings. She was real nice about it, and said that she didn't need any extra rehearsals unless I wanted to do so.   My philosophy about extra rehearsals is that I am a professional and that I will practice on my own time and at my own expense, if necessary, to prepare for a wedding. I expect at least that much from the soloists I work with - if they want to meet me at my church and let me record the accompaniment for them so they have something to work with at home, fine, but I'm not a music or voice teacher - I adamantly refuse to meet several times, at my expense, with a soloist who expects me to do all the work, so I casually mention to brides that I charge $35 per hour (payable at the meeting) for additional meetings, since whatever needs to be worked out can usually be done over the phone or after a church service and that it usually only takes a few minutes.   BTW, I charge $100 for weddings, and that includes the rehearsal the day before the event. I am going to go up to $125 effective 1/1/98. I'm still the cheapest organist I know, but then I live only 5 minutes from the church, so it's not like I have to drive all over town to play weddings. I also loan out copies of a tape I made of me playing the organ at the church where I play on Sundays; the tape has excerpts of numerous processionals and recessionals, as well as a 5-minute speech by me at the very beginning, where I explain how to use the tape and what the difference is between the processional and the recessional.   So, at the wedding rehearsal, we went over the 2 songs. She learned the Stookey wedding song pretty well, but then after we went over the other one a couple of times, she said, "You know, I've sung this song so many times and so many different ways, I've forgotten what's right." Long silence. "OK," I said, "this is what I'm going to play," and then I played it through, accenting the melody where I could. At the end, another long silence. "Well," she sighed, "I'm sure it'll come off alright at the wedding." I just smiled. "Right," I said, and we went our separate ways.   At the wedding, the Stookey song came off pretty good, except that some of her entrance notes were a little shaky, since she wasn't sure if she was entering at the right time or not, but I covered her with a few pedal smears. The Patillo was another story, however; she couldn't remember when the verse started, so after she repeated the chorus several times, I just called it quits and played the ending lines, which she knew was the ending, and called a merciful halt to her embarassment.   Normally after a wedding, I will exit with the crowd, wishing the happy couple the best of luck and graciously accepting thanks from their parents. Weddings like this one, I slip out silently into the night, usually via a back door behind the altar, thankful that I have already cashed my check and praying that it doesn't bounce. You've all been there, I'm sure - somehow, nobody faults the soloist who is a friend of the family, only the organist (the hired hand nobody knows), so why stick around for the stares?   My New Year's resolution this time around, folks (having discovered that weight loss is a definite loser), is to set up a form letter which I send to brides which explains my policies about wedding music. "Thank you for asking me to play for your wedding. This year marks my 35th year as a wedding musician, and I am glad to bring my experience and knowledge as we work together to make your wedding a joyful worship experience... etc, etc and etc"   Anybody have any ideas on how to explain how much I would like to avoid situations such as the one I have described above? In the past, I have spoken frankly to the bride after learning that the soloist is a friend who has never sung in public before, or some such situation, and suggested that the friend sing at the reception instead, which will be less stressful for everybody (especially me, since I rarely play for receptions). I have asked the bride about the singer's experience and vocal education, and have suggested that in the cases where the singer solos in the shower but is such a nice friend that they just *have* to sing for the wedding that perhaps the singer can bring their own accompaniment, another friend to play guitar, maybe, or better yet, a taped accompaniment that we can run through our sound system, especially if they want to sing a nice song by Smashing Pumpkins.   So you don't think I am a total snob about this, there have been many weddings where the soloist felt that s/he was in over their head, and I have had the time to work with them after the rehearsal and before the actual wedding, building up their confidence and working in extra cues to help them along. But these people have obviously done some preparation work before they got to the rehearsal, so I'm glad to help them when I can. The lady at this wedding fell into this category, but I can help only so much. Not reading music and not knowing the songs, and then singing for a wedding, in front of hundreds of people? I'd sooner go over Niagara Falls in a barrel.   Maybe I should establish a fee schedule like this:   Wedding, no soloist $125 Wedding, skilled soloist 125, plus my wife's fees, if she's the soloist ($35 for 2 songs; $15 ea add song) Wedding, unskilled soloist 250 (includes two extra rehearsals in addition to the actual wedding reh)   Whaddyathink?   Sorry to rattle on so. Just be glad I'm not a frequent contributor. Thanks, y'all!   \/\/\    
(back) Subject: Re: Help! From: Shirley <pnst@itw.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:00:52   At 10:21 12/29/97 -0600, you wrote:   >When you get into another net look for #pipechat. It is important that >you include the # sign and that there is no space between the #sign and >pipechat. (...) >Jon   Easier, is just to type /join #pipechat . That's all it takes.   And I'm sure Dave will announce when the pipechat server is ready for us.   --Shirley  
(back) Subject: Re: Help! - IRC From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:55:05 -0600   >At 10:21 12/29/97 -0600, you wrote: > >>When you get into another net look for #pipechat. It is important that >>you include the # sign and that there is no space between the #sign and >>pipechat. (...) >>Jon > >Easier, is just to type /join #pipechat . That's all it takes. > >And I'm sure Dave will announce when the pipechat server is ready for us. > > --Shirley   Tonight we will still be on the Anothernet server. DO NOT try to connect to the new server as you will not be able to make a connection. I noticed on Friday that the number of connections went way up meaning that people were trying to use it.   As of this coming Friday - January 2, 1998 - we will be using the new server. Although the server is running for testing purposes it was decided by Dan and Bob, the chat 'Moms" that the date for moving over our IRC sessions will be the 2nd.   I will be posting all of the information that everyone will need for the new server in the next couple of days.   Hope to see some of you tonight on the Anothernet server starting at 9:00 EST.   David   ********************************** David Scribner Black Iris Consulting 4775 Balmoral Drive Pensacola, FL 32504-9174 850-478-9635 - Voice 850-476-0711 - Fax david@blackiris.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Weddings & New Year's Resolutions From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:45:47 -0800   At 21:12 12/27/97, you wrote: >classical, country-western, you name it, she can probably sing it, if we >can find music in her key (and if we can't, we just buy one in the wrong >key and I enter it into our music program here on the PC and print it out >in another key). So, whenever I can, I ask a bride if she needs a soloist,   Hi-   Would you please tell me what program you use for that. I have no such program at all now, and am looking into getting one, so I would like to know what's available.   Thanks!     _________________________________ Regards, | | | U U U U U | Bob | U UUUUU U | | U _______________ U | | U _______________ U | | U _______________ U |      
(back) Subject: Information, please From: dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:29:51 -0600   Dear Friends: I hope this is o.k. to post. Can anyone out there supply me with the name and address and phone # of the American Rep. of August Laukhuff? I need to order some blowers. Please reply privately. Thank you. Jim Donovan jimdave@rnet.com   -- Rainbow Ridge Farm Plainville Illinois      
(back) Subject: Organ Blower suppliers From: Prestant16 <Prestant16@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:43:31 EST   I have lost the e-mail address of the person that asked about laukhuff blowers, I am replying on the list.   There are a few places to get the blowers, the best I have found is Tracker Tool Supply. The prices are a few hundred less that OSI. Tracker Tool Supply's # is (508)-823-0236. The owner of the company is Robert Roche. He carries many other laukhuff products. I think that it is nearly impossible for a hobbyist organbuilder to order anything directly from Laukhuff because they normally sell to organ companies.   hope this will help,   -William Catanesye  
(back) Subject: Re: Weddings & New Year's Resolutions From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:45:29 -0500   Hi Vernon, I think, unless you really play alot of weddings, that you may be making things too complicated for yourself. If the described situation is not the norm, then why go to so much trouble coming up with ways to prevent it. By the way, I think your handling of this situation was very kind and appropriate, and probably made the soloist (who possibly did not want to sing anyway) discharge her duty to the family and even walk away having had a good experience because you (as any good accompanist would )saved her keister! My feeling is that the solo lasts for only a couple of minutes; I do the best I can to help the soloist; and enjoy the relief when it is over. I do not do extra rehearsals, allowing only one (outside of the wedding rehearsal) for the soloist without the $35/hour charge. I generally don't have any trouble transposing so I often do this just so they'll sound better. With some soloists transposing involves merely changing the cover on the copy from C to D!!! My favorite wedding story was an elderly woman who came to me and said: "You won't believe this, but my name really is Susie and I am the bride's Aunt! I don't want to play for this wedding because I only play my little organ at home but I just can't tell her no. Will you help me?" I agreed, and we decided that she would push keys while I pulled stops, and no matter what happened she would just keep going. By the end of the wedding she was doing acceptably and was relaxing and having fun, so I told her for the Mendelssohn Wedding March out just to play, and keep going no matter what. She agreed, and by the end of the piece the whole 3 manual organ was blasting away, Pedal Bombarde, Swell reeds, super couplers (I was younger then!) and all. When she finished the piece she looked at me with those happy big blue eyes and said, "Geez, I'm good!" We both had a good laugh and went home happy. The point of all this is that the reward for helping the "needy" is far greater than the "damage" to your reputation for having accompanied a substandard soloist. I let them rise to their own level of proficiency and then do what I can to masque the remaining flaws and help them have a good experience. But I really don't spend alot of time on it, so it's really no skin off my cancel-button thumb. PS: You might consider adding another $25 to your fee!   bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o  
(back) Subject: "Pepper Pot Novelties" From: orgnloft@Ma.ultranet.com (Bob and Sally Evans) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:24 -0500 (EST)       Dear List,   Finally got up to Boston to see the "FestivalOrgan" Exhibit at the Boston Public Library. It leaves on the New Year. As part of the exhibition, pictures of "jazz organists" and theater organists are displayed. One of these had Helen and Jesse Crawford seated at twin (I think) Wurlitzer slave consoles of three manuals. The consoles were done in white. Whether there were two consoles or this was a composite picture is not clear. Anyway...The picture has at its bottom the fact that this was a scene from Vitaphone's "Pepper Pot Novelties". Does anyone have any idea if this short feature is/was available? I'd kill for the picture if nothing else. I'll get in touch with Westfield Center which produced the exhibit and see what transpires. In the meantime...any information from you folks would be really appreciated.   Thanks,   Bob Evans     Bob's Wurlitzer Loft Swansea, MA Home of "Rochelle" the RJ-12 Wurlitzer Pipe Organ      
(back) Subject: non-organic conductors (like salt water or copper) From: CDKrug <CDKrug@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:56:59 EST   I was at MSM when Leonard Bernstein was still living and was "conductor emeritis" at NY-Phil. I don't remember who the regular guy was.   But any belief I may have held about the need for a virtuoso coductor was dispelled when I heard consecutive concerts with different conductors.   How does anyone get all those players to work together? Must be that it's Bernstein, and not, say, me.  
(back) Subject: Re: Fiedler vs Williams vs Lockhart From: "Anderson W. Wacaser" <wacaser@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:25:12 -0800   Bob Loesch wrote: > > At 17:51 12/26/97, Shirley wrote: > > > >It's this young man's lack of experience and his youth, however, that will > >contrast most with Fiedler and Williams. Experience and age tend to build > >strong foundation in both programming and interpretation. Youth and > >enthusiasm are fine... as long as there is also someone in the sidelines > >who can serve as mentor to steer this in the right direction. May Mr. > >Lockhart never lose the enthusiasm he has for music, and for what he does. > > > > Remember also the old saw: > Old Age and Treachery will overcome Youth and Skill... > > _________________________________ > Regards, | | > | U U U U U | > Bob | U UUUUU U | > | U _______________ U | > | U _______________ U | > | U _______________ U | > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   I chose this post at random out of sveral hundred off the subject to ask if this is still pipechat. It seems we have a hard time getting a thread going about organs, but have no problem with debating all sorts of off the wall subjects. Perhaps I missed an earlier post on list policies and procedures and am not aware that the list is no longer concerned with the subject of organs. Perhaps it's time to repromulgate the lists' subject matter and procedures.   Regards, Andy Wacaser  
(back) Subject: Re: Information, please From: RMaryman <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:30:34 EST   Jim- you have two options of ordering Laukhuff blowers;   1) Richard Houghten (U.S. Representative for AUG. Laukhuff) P O Box 200 228 East Main Street Milan, Michigan 48160 (tel) 313-439-8866 (fax) 313-439-7961 e-mail:richardhou@aol.com www.pipeorgan.org/rhoughten   2) Organ Supply Industries Erie, PA also stocks and sells a complete line of Ventus (and ventola) blowers. (Ventus is the trade name for the blowers sold by Laukhuff)   hope this helps.   Rick Maryman  
(back) Subject: ill-tempered organ From: Dave Pitzer <dpitzer@sonic.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:25:44 -0800     I just received a copy of Volume 1 of "Organ Chorales from the Leipzig Manuscript" (the so-called 18 Leipzig Chorales by J.S. Bach) performed by Wolfgang R"ubsam. The organ is a modern U.S. instrument, from the firm of Taylor and Boody, located at Holy Cross College in Worcester, Massachusetts.   Upon playing the first chorale (Komm, heiliger Geist, BWV 651), something didn't sound quite right. Granted, at least one of the mixtures on this instrument is a bit "strident," but the problem sounded more like an organ out-of-tune. But not out-of-tune with itself exactly...more out of tune with my musical memory.   But as I listened more (to the other chaorales -- and especially those not registered with mixtures -- the organ slowly became more "in-tune" and musical. Then after several more auditions, even the "big" chorales sounded suddenly "right."   I suspect that this machine is tuneded to some standard other than the "mean" tempered tuning I'm used to.   I went to my "benchmark standard" for the Leipzig Chorales, the beautiful recording of the 1696 Schnitger instrument in Noordbrock, Holland (Martin Souter, organist, on two very, very nicely recorded ISIS discs). Now the standard temperament sounded somewhat strange (!!??) Was it the fact that the Schnitger instrument is also pitched much higher (A=460)? No, it's the tuning.   Anyone have information on this Holy Cross College instrument's tuning??   D. Michael Pitzer California =================    
(back) Subject: Re: Fiedler vs Williams vs Lockhart From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:58:29 -0800   At 20:25 12/29/97 -0800, you wrote: >I chose this post at random out of sveral hundred off the subject to ask >if this is still pipechat. It seems we have a hard time getting a thread >going about organs, but have no problem with debating all sorts of off >the wall subjects. Perhaps I missed an earlier post on list policies and >procedures and am not aware that the list is no longer concerned with >the subject of organs. Perhaps it's time to repromulgate the lists' >subject matter and procedures. > > Regards, > Andy Wacaser >   Andy: You're correct about the need to re-state policies! I had been following, but not joining, the 'Fiedler et al.' debate, until I couldn't stand it anymore, and resorted to my usual distorted attempt at humor: I just can't help playing Devil's advocate! The thread started out wondering if the new conductor would use the organ in Symphony hall more than his predecessors, and it went downhill from there. I hope that my offhand remarks were really picked at random, and that I haven't offended you (or anyone else) by my choice of words, or by the fact that I posted to that thread at all. I am a theatre organ fan first and foremost, but I love ALL schools of organ building and music, and wish that it was more widely accepted and played.       Regards,   Bob        
(back) Subject: Re: ill-tempered organ From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:23:57 -0500   For a description of the Holy Cross Organ, see The American Organist, March 1985. The article is very descriptive except for the omission of the temperament, which I believe is Kellner (also known as the Bach temperament, I believe). This is the temperament which was used on the organ at Cal State - Chico. Somewhere I have a brochure on the Holy Cross organ. If you have difficulty getting information, let me know and I might have cleaned that far by then. A call to the Taylor and Boody shop in Staunton VA would certainly get you a nice selection of brochures on their work. Unequal temperament is shocking at first and I used to really dislike hearing it, but as I got used to it and played an organ tuned to Vallotti for several years, I find that equal temperament on organs bothers me, or at least disappoints me, now. OHS has some good (reasonable) books on tuning, one being The Well-Tempered Organ by Charles Padgham. There is also a fine cassette available from AGO Educational Resources called An Introduction to Unequal Temperament (or close to that) and you can find it in the Ed Res page of The American Organist. I have really enjoyed that tape; it was made on the dual- temperament Fisk at Stanton Univ. Enjoy.   bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o  
(back) Subject: Re: ill-tempered organ From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:36:09 -0500   Re the Fisk at Stanton (?) egad.... Stanford, it's late!   bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o