PipeChat Digest #7 - Wednesday, July 23, 1997
ipe organ??
        by <Ronnymn@aol.com>
me pipe organ??
        by Kenneth O. Woods <kow987@dice.nwscc.sea06.navy.mil>
red
        by <MFulk70776@aol.com>
me pipe organ??
        by Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
red
        by <Bill6827@aol.com>
me pipe organ?? Why not?
        by <MFulk70776@aol.com>
me pipe organ??/ Keep the ideas coming
        by <MFulk70776@aol.com>
me pipe organ??
        by Alan K Baker <alan@senora.demon.co.uk>
me pipe organ??
        by Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
rgan supporting frame
        by William E. Catanesye <photom@ix.netcom.com>
pe organ supporting frame
        by Jim Saenger <chamade@Early.com>
me pipe organ??
        by Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com>
ower Enclosure Advice Needed.
        by <Tnbirke@aol.com>
pe organ supporting frame
        by Wm. G. Chapman <wchapmn@ibm.net>
me pipe organ??
        by <Tnbirke@aol.com>
pe organ supporting frame
        by Jim Saenger <chamade@Early.com>
me pipe organ??
        by <NFexec@aol.com>
PECHAT Procedures --IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!
        by <TRAKBOY@aol.com>
me pipe organ??
        by dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com>
me pipe organ??
        by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Home pipe organ?? From: Ronnymn@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:43:22 -0400 (EDT)   It occurred to me that the basis for many discussions re: pros and cons of E organs and (forgive) Real organs is $$$ like so many other things in this world. Think of what the effect would be if home pipe organs were made affordable and sizeable (new word maybe). thus, my question with a deep breath. Have makers tried or experimented with Plastic. For pipes, chests, components whatever, for a mass production approach. Yuk you say? There are so many types of plastics and other manmade products with so many different physical properties, could not someone find adequate (not great, mind you) substitues for Tin, Lead, Wood etc. to make a satisfactory sounding pipe sound?? e.g. Plumbers have been forced to go from copper to plastic in many situations. I think there are many like me that would have a pipe organ in there home as well as a piano if it was financially feasable.  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: kow987@dice.nwscc.sea06.navy.mil (Kenneth O. Woods) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 8:57:53 EST   > Think of what the effect would be if home pipe organs were made > affordable and sizeable , for a mass production approach. Yuk you say? There are > Yes, I can hear the *yuk*'s and *barf*'s, but I would prefer it to the home organ I currently have which is completely non-pipe in all aspects. It all comes down to "is there a market"? Perhaps the approach of digitally sampled electronics would be sufficiently for a home/practice organ. Any organ builders care to comment?   -- Kenneth O. Woods kow987@dice.crane.navy.mil  
(back) Subject: Re: Tired From: MFulk70776@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:19:03 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-07-22 06:19:44 EDT, you write:   << Shirley, Just a quick note to let you know that SOME of us DO appreciate your efforts and wouldn't think of complaining about something so trivial ! Thanks again for your efforts! Douglas A. Campbell formerly in Skaneateles, NY now in Jackson, WY "Pipe >> Shirley.......me too! Gratefully. Michael Fulk  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: nstarfil@mediaone.net (Stanley Lowkis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:33:04 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Kenneth O. Woods wrote:   > > Think of what the effect would be if home pipe organs were made > > affordable and sizeable > , for a mass production approach. Yuk you say? There are > > > Yes, I can hear the *yuk*'s and *barf*'s, but I would prefer it to the > home > organ I currently have which is completely non-pipe in all aspects. It > all > comes down to "is there a market"? Perhaps the approach of digitally > sampled > electronics would be sufficiently for a home/practice organ. Any organ > builders > care to comment?   I'm not a builder but I can't help but be reminded of an article publishedby Audio Magazine in the 60's which described in some detail the components of unique pipe organ tonalities and approaches needed to simulate them electronically. His experiments led him to the conclusion that the key to the most realistic simulation of pipe organ sound was in the number of descrete sound sources. (the ideal would be one amplifier and speaker for each pipe) The tonal character of the entire instrument would rely on the (unnatural) colorations of the indvidual speakers. Other than top-notch powered sub-woofers, the battery of amplifiers and speakers would be extremely modest. Impractical? Of course. But if you want to create a pipe organ presence   in the room you cannot funnel the best digital source material through just a few speakers. Have anyone of you esteemed ladies and gentlemen ever encountered such an instrument?   Stan Lowkis Ipswich, Mass.    
(back) Subject: Re: Tired From: Bill6827@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:29:23 -0400 (EDT)   Hey Shirley,   Don't sweat the small stuff! It's all small stuff!   Dr. Bill Hanson Bill6827  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? Why not? From: MFulk70776@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:59:02 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-07-22 12:41:42 EDT, you write:   << Have anyone of you esteemed ladies and gentlemen ever encountered such an instrument? Stan Lowkis Ipswich, Mass. >> No, I haven't. However, by today's standards, such a thing could be done, much more easily and less expensively than in the 60's.. The amplifier power for each pipe.......well, for most pipes, would not have to be high........and, I suppose, loudspeakers would not cost as much or would be less expensive than pipes....most pipes. I am surprised that no one has tried it.....at least in a modest way. The results would, (or could), be fascinating  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ??/ Keep the ideas coming From: MFulk70776@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:05:08 -0400 (EDT)   In a message dated 97-07-22 12:42:41 EDT, you write:   <<I think there are many like me that would have a pipe organ in there home as well as a piano if it was financially feasable. >> Fascinating, as was the last post on having separate loudspeakers and amplifiers for each pipe. Anything that could bring the real sound of real pipes to the home would be wonderful; I'd even consider a second mortgage. AND, zany as it may sound, I am a Hammond lover, too  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: Alan K Baker <alan@senora.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:30:37 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII   On Tue 22 Jul, Ronnymn@aol.com wrote: > It occurred to me that the basis for many discussions re: pros and cons of E > organs and (forgive) Real organs is $$$ like so many other things in this > world. Think of what the effect would be if home pipe organs were made > affordable and sizeable (new word maybe). thus, my question with a deep > breath. Have makers tried or experimented with Plastic. For pipes, chests, > components whatever, for a mass production approach. Yuk you say? There are > so many types of plastics and other manmade products with so many different > physical properties, could not someone find adequate (not great, mind you) > substitues for Tin, Lead, Wood etc. to make a satisfactory sounding pipe > sound?? e.g. Plumbers have been forced to go from copper to plastic in many > situations. I think there are many like me that would have a pipe organ in > there home as well as a piano if it was financially feasable.   Well, plastic is certainly used locally for some purposes. It's a great way for shifting wind around, as it doesn't suffer from the problems (and leaks) of wood. I really don't see any reason why a non-warping plastic shouldn't be used for all aspects except perhaps speaking pipes. Who knows? Has anyone ever constructed a plastic 'Tibia'?   Regards,   Alan   -- Alan K Baker (WurliTzer Willy) www.senora.demon.co.uk    
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: nstarfil@mediaone.net (Stanley Lowkis) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:17:04 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Alan K Baker wrote:   > I really don't see any reason why a non-warping plastic shouldn't > be used for all aspects except perhaps speaking pipes. Who knows? Has > anyone > ever constructed a plastic 'Tibia'? > > Regards, > > Alan > > -- > Alan K Baker (WurliTzer Willy) > www.senora.demon.co.uk   Don't know, but my aunt has a Teflon hip. (sorry about that-just too easy) :-)   Stan      
(back) Subject: Pipe organ supporting frame From: "William E. Catanesye" <photom@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:28:34 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I am building a home organ on a limited budget. I have calculated the cost of building JUST the frame out of 2x4 Clear White Oak. The price is nearly $ 400.00 (106 lin. ft.) I don't want to use regular studs, they look very unattractive even for an organ frame that is not going to be seen. What other kinds of wood can be used for organ frames? I have some ideas like:   2x6 Poplar or clear pine 1x3 Rock maple   So, what is a low cost attractive material for pipe organ frames?   William C.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ supporting frame From: Jim Saenger <chamade@Early.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 16:54:07 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I am building a home organ on a limited budget. I have calculated the cost of building JUST the frame out of 2x4 Clear White Oak. The price is nearly $ 400.00 (106 lin. ft.) I don't want to use regular studs, they look very unattractive even for an organ frame that is not going to be seen. What other kinds of wood can be used for organ frames? I have some ideas like:   2x6 Poplar or clear pine 1x3 Rock maple   So, what is a low cost attractive material for pipe organ frames?   William C.   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org     Poplar, pine, maple, oak are all suitable for organ framework, regardless of the kind of action. Cherry seems to be at a very low price these days as well. Also seems that you have a pretty good price on white oak which, interesting enough for me, is more economical these days than red oak, which is suitable for framework, but little else in serious organ work.   What kind of project are you doing?     Jim Saenger  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: Shirley <pnst@voicenet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:39:17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"   In reference to plastic being used as the material of choice for pipes:   I sent the original post on this topic to my engineer husband (who I met many years ago at the Lansdowne Theatre.... he helped maintain the Kimball 3/8+, I played it... [well, he played it too....])   He had this to offer to this thread:   Plastic as a material of construction for pipe-organs? Here's the perspective of an engineer who has dabbled in pipe organs (playing and fixing): I suspect that you could get a good tonal match to metal or wood pipes for with plastic for flutes and diapasons. Some questions: I'm not sure how much of the "wooden board" sound of the pedal bourdon you would capture. I'm also not sure how much the "ring" of the metal wall contributes to the tone of a string rank. There are some real subtleties in the tone of stringed instruments. Violin makers tap the wood they use to test for the "ring" or resonance. For reeds, maybe you could make the resonator of plastic. Again, I'm not sure how much the "ring" of the metal resonator wall contributes to the brassiness of the tone. I think it contributes significantly for an orchestral brass trumpet. For wind-chests, swell box shutters, there may be a real advantage to plastic, since problems with humidity and warpage would be essentially nil. Also, it may be easier to construct certain standard wind chest mechanisms with plastic forming techniques. If you could do away with pouch pneumatics, you would gain something, but leather still holds up as well as or better than plastic when used for pouches. Now for the labor part, which accounts for most of the cost of a pipe organ. Possibly, there may be a savings with windchests, swell box shutters and wind ducting. However, the pipes are all custom made, each one of a kind. Making a plastic injection-mold for each pipe may be very expensive. An alternative might be to blow-mold pipes into a limited number of blanks (maybe one size for each octave), then machine the hollow blank to the desired shape and size for each note in the rank. The traditional lead/tin, zinc and wood materials are easily worked into the desired shape without expensive high-tech equipment - it just takes a lot of time. I think that the use of plastics could help somewhat, but the uniqueness of pipe organ designs and the subtleties of getting a good tone are tough obstacles to overcome.  
(back) Subject: Re: Blower Enclosure Advice Needed. From: Tnbirke@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:32:25 -0400 (EDT)   Several years ago our church installed a 2/28 Reuter in place of an Allen. The chambers are not filled, and a dividing wall was built between the part of the chambers containing the pipes and the part containing the blowers (divided chancel). The wall/partition consisted of metal studs and double fire rated 1/2 in. sheetrock with construction adhesive between the two sheets of sheetrock. It really deadens the sound and surely your Fire Marshall will be able to accept.   Good luck.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ supporting frame From: "Wm. G. Chapman" <wchapmn@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:33:10 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   William E. Catanesye wrote: > > I am building a home organ on a limited budget. . . What other kinds of wood can be used for organ frames?     I would suggest you consider FAS Poplar. It is moderate in price, works well, takes reasonable abuse, is easy to finish and does not dull the tools too quickly.   W. G. Chapman    
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: Tnbirke@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:01:49 -0400 (EDT)   Plastic organ pipes?   Being a clarintist (and engineer) not an organist, I need to comment on a pipe material change to plastic: Several years ago I was having a clarinet overhauled by Bill Brannon in Evanston. I asked what we were going to do after all the grenadilla trees were cut down in Africa? His response was that he hoped it was going to be tomorrow so he could start working with stable plastic rather than split proned wood! I also understand that there are plastic student model clarinets being played in major American orchestras. This could work.   I am also installing a 1939 vintage 2/7 Reuter in our den. It cost less than a new (wood) clarinet. The sound has been worth the hours.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe organ supporting frame From: Jim Saenger <chamade@Early.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 19:20:32 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   ......   So, what is a low cost attractive material for pipe organ frames?   William C.     My previous reply did not mention steel as a low cost material for organ frames. Whether or not steel is attractive depends on your general and applied aesthetics. Sometimes steel can be the perfect material for specific jobs, not often in the organ world, but where it really gets you somewhere you could not otherwise reach. Sometimes this concept extends to cost as well.     Jim Saenger        
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: NFexec@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:59:27 -0400 (EDT)   I believe this question began with the argument that pipe organs are more expensive than electronic organs; hence, the difficulty in establishing a market for home installations and the ensuing discussion on the use of plastic. I am not a physicist or an expert pipe maker. I have had exposure, however, to some pipe making, voicing, and tonal finishing expertise. To make a long story short, I will say that I would doubt that you will ever find a plastic violin, clarinet, flute, trumpet, or drum in any serious orchestra. Why would pipe makers use copper, brass, tin, zinc, lead, wood, etc in their instruments if they could economize by using plastic? I believe the answer is that you would NOT get a rich variety of sounds and the cost to manufacture plastic pipes in even a medium instrument would surely outweigh "the real thing". By the way - there are a LOT of used pipe organs and good used parts available - one could assemble a very nice "real" organ for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Some of the expense is in the electronics - relays, switching, etc. Unless you have to have a tracker (good luck). I suppose no one ever heard of the Allen Organ Co.? If you are a died in the wool purist, one could understand not caring for their digitally sampled organs - but let's get real, folks --- not too many of us have a 6-figured allowance for such personal luxuries.  
(back) Subject: Re: PIPECHAT Procedures --IMPORTANT PLEASE READ! From: TRAKBOY@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:18:01 -0400 (EDT)   I also agree - The old way was much better for sorting out the good from the bad.  
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: dmjd <jimdave@rnet.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:31:18 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi All: Have been following this thread now from the beginning with fascination. I think the best, most economical solution is to forget the plastic pipes as being impractical and opt to purchase a small used pipe organ. There are many available and are becoming more favorably priced as time goes by. The organ clearing house, ads in the AGO mag "The Organist", " The Diapason" and probably others. Organ builders frequently have used organs for sale. (Even I have one) Buying a used organ will save you money in the long run and will have a more satisfying sound. Just my $.02 Jim -- email: jimdave@rnet.com Rainbow Ridge Farm    
(back) Subject: Re: Home pipe organ?? From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:42:00 -0400 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT   I think one of the problems for home organs (and small churches as well) is that we live in a culture that tells us "big is best" and "multifunctional is necessary." The larger an organ is, in my opinion (of course), the less it is able to do well. Quality and individuality of stops seems to deteriorate as size increases. Some of my favorite organs at OHS conventions are the smallest ones. In selecting an organ for my home, my first priority is what does it sound like; how does the action feel is an integral part, as well. One well voiced principal/diapason is worth twenty mediocre sounds; and there is no way I would want to listen to anything reproduced. I even have trouble listening to CD's because the sound is not being "produced" in my room. I am toying with the idea of building a small tracker house/practice instrument. Recycled chassis and pipes are probably the answer. Also, it might be possible to purchase a larger organ with someone else and split "the proceeds" as it were.     Bruce Cornely o o o o o ______________ o o o o o o o o o o o ______________ o o o o o o o o o o o ______________ o o o o o ====================================