PipeChat Digest #348 - Tuesday, April 28, 1998
 
RTOS
  by "Kenneth L Veneron" <organman@netacc.net>
Re: Talking about Music & the Arts
  by "Vernon Moeller" <vernonm@ccsi.com>
Re: Using french phrases with organ topics.
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
RE: Using french phrases with organ topics.
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
LEW WILLIAMS
  by "Ian B. McLean" <solotibia@enternet.com.au>
RE: LEW WILLIAMS
  by "Wildhirt, Richard" <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com>
Re: Talking about Music & the Arts
  by "Douglas A. Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
RE: LEW WILLIAMS
  by <danbel@earthlink.net>
Johannus Organs
  by <rnickel@itol.com>
RE: LEW WILLIAMS
  by "Wildhirt, Richard" <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com>
Re:  Content!
  by "Tim Rand" <tim@minn.net>
Re: LEW WILLIAMS
  by "stephen ohmer" <sohmer@juno.com>
Re: Talking about Music & the Arts
  by "Mac Hayes" <mach37@ptw.com>
Durufle's Toccata (Was re:Lew Williams)
  by "Patricia R. Maimone" <patmai@juno.com>
Re: Content!
  by "Shakehip" <Shakehip@aol.com>
Re: Content!
  by "Bob Loesch" <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: Lew Williams (long)
  by "Jonathan M Orwig" <giwro@juno.com>
Re: LEW WILLIAMS
  by "Ian B. McLean" <solotibia@enternet.com.au>
Durufle Toccata
  by "Thomas Haubrich" <haubt000@goofy.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de>
Hymns
  by "Peggy C. Bie" <peggyb@gate.net>
R. Duerr, Organ Recital, Cadet Chapel, West Point, NY - 10 May
  by "Patricia R. Maimone" <patmai@juno.com>
 


(back) Subject: RTOS From: Kenneth L Veneron <organman@netacc.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:58:55 -0400   Announcing:   Rochester Theater Organ Society finally had their 4/22 WurliTzer console delivered on 4/27/98. The console was being rebuilt in Indanapolis.   If all goes well there will be a May Re-dedication & Gala Event. Lyn Larsen is slated to be the Artist at the Re-dedication Concert.   You may visit my web site at <http://www.netacc.net/+AH4-organman/rtos/rtosidx.html> for updated information. Or you may visit the Official RTOS site at <http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/>.   Thanks, Ken Veneron  
(back) Subject: Re: Talking about Music & the Arts From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:46:37   For those of you who felt paranoid after my recent post, let me assure you (and as I say this, I have a virtual hand on my virtual Bible) that I was not referring to anybody on this list. I figger that if you are interested enough in music to be subscribing to this list, that you also probably have an open enough mind to endure, if not outright appreciate, music of all kinds. With the exception of rap and cry-in-your-beer C&W (what odd bedfellows!), I can listen to any kind of music for a little while, at least, before I change radio stations. My 13-yr-old son, the roller hockey nut, is into Metallica and Nirvana, and as long as he turns it down to 300 decibels, I can stand it - sort of like Z Z Top on uppers, if you ask me!   As for classical music stations, I haven't been keeping up with problems in Philly. We have KMFA here in Austin, a classical music station on the air for over 25 years now, entirely listener-supported. Wonderful programs, great commentary, really fine folks, all combined to make classical music all the more enjoyable. Classical music is also aired weekday mornings on KUT-FM, the radio station run by the University of Texas at Austin, and Central Texas College in Killeen, just a few miles north of here has similar programs during its broadcast days, too. So, maybe y'all just need to move down here for some great music on the airwaves - just be sure to get Texas license plates before you come thisaway, otherwise you might be mistaken for Yankee carpetbaggers or revenooers! ;-)   \/\/\    
(back) Subject: Re: Using french phrases with organ topics. From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:03:08 -0400   .....and also with you! hehe   bruce o h s __________ a g o cornely o o __________ o o ........... cremona84000@webtv.net ...........    
(back) Subject: RE: Using french phrases with organ topics. From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:19:13 -0400   Lord help us.... what have I started???   maybe should be spanked with a Bourdon en Bois!   sacre bleu!   bruce o h s __________ a g o cornely o o __________ o o ........... cremona84000@webtv.net ...........    
(back) Subject: LEW WILLIAMS From: "Ian B. McLean" <solotibia@enternet.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:21:38 +1000   The quoted text below was but one of the private responses that I received after my piece on Lew's performance at the recent TOSA Convention in Australia.   This email states pretty much that which others have had to say. Personally, I only hope that Lew does "get it" once more as well. For the his good stuff is quite incredible.     > Lew was my first exposure to TO music, and I have often enjoyed his > artistry - however, I too, was much underwhelmed the last time i heard > him - a couple of years ago I went to a classical recital, and his > command of the all-French programme was mixed... moments of stunning > virtuosity followed by dumb mistakes (he left out an entire PAGE of > the Durufle Toccata op. 5). I understand he left full-time concertizing > for a number of years, and only just recently (in the last 3-4 yrs) has > returned... perhaps he lost the "edge"... I sure hope he gets it > back - I was often spellbound by his elegantly orchestral playing...   Anyone have any other ideas as to why this organist can be such an incredible mixed bag? This is the first time I've experienced such a contrast in competencies in one programme by any artist in this league.     Ian McLean  
(back) Subject: RE: LEW WILLIAMS From: "Wildhirt, Richard" <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:37:28 -0700   > Anyone have any other ideas as to why this organist can be such an > incredible mixed bag? This is the first time I've experienced such a > contrast in competencies in one programme by any artist in this > league. > Never heard him before, but he'll be in Vancouver, Washington on 9 May giving concert. I'm planning on going. Looking forward to it.  
(back) Subject: Re: Talking about Music & the Arts From: dougcampbell@juno.com (Douglas A. Campbell) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:02:25 EDT     On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:46:04 -0400 Ruth <theraven@istar.ca> writes: >???? I dont understand your comment. What's Ms Bish got to do with >anything?? > >Ruth > Dear Ruth,   Diane Bish's sindicated TV show is called "The Joy of Music".   The confusion came about when the person replying to your message failed to read carefully ! (Note to self: Aways draw the " brain to fingers " coupler when replying to email !)   Didn't see you on pipechatIRC last night - missed you !       Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]    
(back) Subject: RE: LEW WILLIAMS From: danbel@earthlink.net Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:16:30 -0400   At 08:37 AM 4/28/98 -0700, you wrote: >Never heard him before, but he'll be in Vancouver, Washington on 9 May >giving concert. I'm planning on going. Looking forward to it.   Hopefully the program to which you are referring will be held somewhere OTHER than the local pizza joint in Vancouver---that being said, I would urge you and everyone else to hear Lew Williams on any occasion presented.   Lew is a consumate musician being well versed in both classical AND theatre organ stylings. His transcriptions of Glenn Miller's big band charts are not to be missed and are incredibly accurate to the original charts.   As to the comments from downunder regarding Lew's performances there: I really should not comment because I was not in attendance. What I WILL say is this. If Lew fluffed a few notes in a given performance--so be it. I would defy ANYONE who IS or has BEEN a performer to say they have never had this happen to them. We ALL do it. I certainly have had it happen (not at the best times either:) and it is not something that any of us are immune to. There can be many reasons for this kind of thing---number one and most probable for most of us: We just had a bad day! Simple. Other considerations include instrument problems obviously. That has also happened to all of us. THAT part of things we can NOT control. If the instrument is not concert ready when we show up to play we most of the time do not have the physical time to have things corrected before concert time. That is the fault of the presenters---NOT the artist. Most venues (including the one at which Lew appeared in AU) make the best effort possible to ready their instrument for a major concert appearance.   Bottom line: Don't let an artist's occasional "off day" put you off from hearing him/her again--ESPECIALLY in THIS case! Lew is a fine musician as I said before and as much as that, a true gentleman of our business.   You WILL be entertained---both in console manner and most importantly, MUSICALLY!!! :)   Dan Bellomy    
(back) Subject: Johannus Organs From: rnickel@itol.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:43:21 -0500 (CDT)   Yo, Listers:   (Ok, I don't normally address others that way, but today I'm feeling a bit spunky.)   I happened to be looking through a back issue of The American Organist and spied an ad about which I've always wondered. The Johannus Company used to make a Monarke series instrument (listing for $48,500 in the ad ... WHEW!). This instrument was an electronic and very Baroque in appearance ... like a little Baroque tracker. Have any of you ever played one of these? I've never seen one in real life (as opposed to unreal life, I guess).   I've also been interested in Ahlborn-Galanti's model known as the Leipzig .... one of their line of electronics. This, too, appears to be very Baroque (and quite pricy, as I understand). Have any of you ever played one of these? I've never seen one of these either.   Have a great day.   Bob Nickel rnickel@itol.com    
(back) Subject: RE: LEW WILLIAMS From: "Wildhirt, Richard" <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:32:23 -0700   > >Never heard him before, but he'll be in Vancouver, Washington on 9 > May > >giving concert. I'm planning on going. Looking forward to it. > > Hopefully the program to which you are referring will be held > somewhere > OTHER than the local pizza joint in Vancouver. > He'll be playing the 3/17 Wurly at Uncle Milt's. Theatre organ venues of any quality here in the northwest are few and far between. Ya gotta do the best with what yer given.  
(back) Subject: Re: Content! From: "Tim Rand" <tim@minn.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:36:07 -0500   Peter--I appreciate your efforts to keep content on topic. Otherwise, a list can easily become out of control.   BUT.....IMHO, CCM impacts organists and their performance as church musicians greatly. I found Vernon's comments on CCM very relevant to, and specifically related to, organists performing in a church setting. Personally, I wish CCM WERE off-topic, but it's a reality for organists playing organs in 1998, and I don't understand why it should be beyond the scope of Pipechat.   ___ Tim Rand Minneapolis    
(back) Subject: Re: LEW WILLIAMS From: sohmer@juno.com (stephen ohmer) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:00:24 -0400     On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:16:30 -0400 danbel@earthlink.net writes: > , I >would >urge you and everyone else to hear Lew Williams on any occasion >presented. > >Lew is a consumate musician being well versed in both classical AND >theatre >organ stylings. His transcriptions of Glenn Miller's big band charts >are >not to be missed and are incredibly accurate to the original charts. > As to the comments from downunder regarding Lew's performances there: >I really should not comment because I was not in attendance. What I >WILL >say is this. If Lew fluffed a few notes in a given performance--so be >it. >I would defy ANYONE who IS or has BEEN a performer to say they have >never >had this happen to them. We ALL do it. >considerations include instrument problems obviously. That has also >happened to all of us. THAT part of things we can NOT control. If the >instrument is not concert ready when we show up to play we most of the >time >do not have the physical time to have things corrected before concert >time. > That is the fault of the presenters---NOT the artist. Most venues >(including the one at which Lew appeared in AU) make the best effort >possible to ready their instrument for a major concert appearance. > >Bottom line: Don't let an artist's occasional "off day" put you off >from >hearing him/her again--ESPECIALLY in THIS case! Lew is a fine >musician as >I said before and as much as that, a true gentleman of our business. > >You WILL be entertained---both in console manner and most importantly, >MUSICALLY!!! :) >   I heartily second third and fourth the above. Except that maybe we shall all take umbrage with the fact that none of us ever have a bad day at the console - regardless of style of music we are playing. It is only people of Lew Williams' stature in the business that make such fatal misteaks, leaving the rest of us out here to cast the first stone.   So, now that poor Lew has had a bad day down undah, give the bloke another chance; put your rocks and stones away and hear this guy play anything! He truly is one of the best all around organists we have in the world today. How many of us had to play encores at our senior college recital?   Steve Ohmer - don't mess with my friend Lew! :-{)   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]    
(back) Subject: Re: Talking about Music & the Arts From: Mac Hayes <mach37@ptw.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:37:36 -0700   Vernon Moeller wrote: > ... With the exception of rap and cry-in-your-beer C&W (what odd > bedfellows!), I can listen to any kind of music for a little while, at > least, before I change radio stations.   ListMaster, cover your eyes for a minute. I think it would be interesting to see the results of a poll of all the ListMembers on how they feel about the above statement, like maybe 1- strongly agree, 2- somewhat agree, 3- somewhat disagree, 4- strongly disagree. It might be wise to send replies to an address other than PipeChat; like maybe me, mach37@ptw.com . If I get any responses I will make the results available to the list, anonymity of all entrants guaranteed.   The organic connection? To see how tolerant (or intolerant) of other forms of music the average organ-lover is.   My own answer would be: 1- Strongly Agree. Vernon, thanks for the interesting post!   -- Mac Hayes mach37@ptw.com Better a brick airplane than a brick boat.    
(back) Subject: Durufle's Toccata (Was re:Lew Williams) From: patmai@juno.com (Patricia R. Maimone) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:10:58 -0400   Dear Ian, especially private responder, and PIPECHATTERS,   >The quoted text below was but one of the private responses that I >received after my piece on Lew's performance at the recent TOSA >Convention in Australia. > Lew was my first exposure to TO music, and I have often enjoyed his >> artistry -<snip> >- a couple of years ago I went to a classical recital, and his >> command of the all-French programme <snip>{included} >> moments of stunning virtuosity followed by dumb >> mistakes (he left out an entire PAGE of the Durufle Toccata op. 5). When Virgil Fox recorded the very difficult Durufle Toccata, (Suite, Op. 5) he left out an entire page, perhaps two... My score is at the office and I have not played the piece for several years. The cut was indeed authorized by the composer, who answered my question about it and autographed my score of the work when he (and Marie-Madeleine Durufle-Chevalier) gave a recital at Kirkpatrick Chapel, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey, in the early 1960's.   Pat Maimone   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]    
(back) Subject: Re: Content! From: Shakehip <Shakehip@aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:03:50 EDT   Why not get a concensus... The administrator has a right to set the topic and if he (and dedicated pipe organists who subscribe to the list) feel it inappropriate to discuss certain topics that are currently popular, we have to respect it. On the other hand, it might be worthwhile to set up a more casual Contemporary Organ Chat List if members interested in discussing those topics are offending either the administrator or bulk of members. That way no one is offended -- pipe organ purists have a right to a rare and unique forumn -- and us CCR/electronic organ folks won't be leeching off of them (which we might be, considering that we don't have such a vibrant forumn... this is, afterall, one of the most lively and mature lists I've ever subscribed to and in fact, if pipe organists started to dominate a Hammond chat, admittedly, I might get a bit annoyed...)   I don't want to sound like I'm coming here and trying to start my own list and pull members away, but if there's a mutual concensus that the administrator and pipe organists who subscribe to the list feel that would be best, and the theatre/contemporary organists who subscribe to it wouldn't mind having their own, then wouldn't that be best ? And at present, there are more Theatre/Contemporary Church Organists subscribing to this list than many of the other lists out there.    
(back) Subject: Re: Content! From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:13:11 -0700   At 19:03 4/28/98 EDT, you wrote: > And at present, there are more >Theatre/Contemporary Church Organists subscribing to this list than many of >the other lists out there.   Hello, List. I am a theatre organist, and I also used to play in churches. That's the reason I subscribe to this (and two other) list(s). I do like to keep up on the classic/church scene, even though I choose not to be a part of it. My interest in in PIPE ORGANS! I don't care if one plays jazz, pop, classic, or CCM. I'm interested in everyone's views, but if CCM is verboten, that's no reason to go away!     Regards,   Bob        
(back) Subject: Re: Lew Williams (long) From: giwro@juno.com (Jonathan M Orwig) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:26:11 -0700   On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:10:58 -0400 patmai@juno.com (Patricia R. Maimone) writes: >Dear Ian, especially private responder, and PIPECHATTERS,   <<snippage>>   > When Virgil Fox recorded the very difficult Durufle Toccata, >(Suite, Op. 5) he left out an entire page, perhaps two... My score is > at the office and I have not played the piece for several years. > The cut was indeed authorized by the composer, who answered > my question about it and autographed my score of the work > when he (and Marie-Madeleine Durufle-Chevalier) gave a recital at >Kirkpatrick Chapel, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey, in > the early 1960's. > > Pat Maimone   Well. Since I was that private responder to Ian, perhaps I should set the record straight on a couple of things. Firstly, I have nothing but the highest respect for Lew - I have been acquainted with him since the early 80's. Of all the times I have heard him perform, the classical recital was the ONLY time I have heard him that gave me mixed feelings - as Dan Bellomy has stated, he is a consummate musician, and probably just had a bad day.   Pat, it is interesting to note that Lew once told me he had studied the Toccata with Durufle himself, so my thanks for pointing out the authorized cut - my bet is that he got the same instructions you did! As an interesting aside, Lew told me that after his lesson one day Mme. Durufle pulled him aside as he was leaving and asked to see his score (she had been in another part of the house). She took his score, opened it to a particular page, and pointing to a note said "you missed the A# here..." or something to that effect. Sheesh! What an ear!   I have many fond memories of Lew's playing, a few of which I will share now: One night at the Pizza Parlor during his break, an older lady called him over to her table, and asked if he could play a tune for her during his next set. He didn't know it, but she had music with her. Lew looked over the score for a minute or so, handed it back, and said "Sure, I'll play it". He then left for the back room to relax. 10 min or so later, he started his next set, and after playing for 5 -10 min proceeded to play the tune as part of a medley! Seems he memorized the melody on the spot....   I used to come in and request some classical stuff (usually French romantic) and wrap the request in a tip ;-) sometimes I had a specific request, usually I just asked for whatever he was in the mood to play. One night I asked for the Dupre' P&F in G minor. He looked down, saw the request and got an evil grin. He launched into a new medley, and went through a couple of tunes. I don't remember what it was, but one of them suddenly started getting fragments of the fugue subject in it, and before you know it, he had elided into the Dupre... Then something weird happened - he used the fugue subject, but mixed the whole piece up, improvising his way through his new creation using bits and pieces of the original - the whole time looking OVER HIS SHOULDER with an evil grin!! Never did finish the Dupre, used it as a bridge to a Gershiwin tune.... I got some really weird looks as I sat there and darn near laughed myself senseless....   Yes, folks, there's no one like Lew Williams - by all means go and hear him!     **************** Jonathan Orwig Minister of Music - Bethany Church, Redlands, CA for new Organ, Keyboard & Choral Music visit Evensong Music at: http://members.aol.com/Evnsong/pgone.html   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]    
(back) Subject: Re: LEW WILLIAMS From: "Ian B. McLean" <solotibia@enternet.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:00:22 +1000   danbel@earthlink.net wrote:   > > You WILL be entertained---both in console manner and most importantly, > MUSICALLY!!! :)     With this sentiment, personally, I entirely concur. He DID ENTERTAIN the vast majority of that audience, as I said in my initial comments. However, the overall point of my original note on this concert, was that those that attended who were NON TPO afficionados, left unimpressed. So, regardless of the fact that there were some well delivered TPO "classics" that made me personally happy, the items that these 'newbies' related to did not achieve the same outcome.   Major artists in major public concerts like this one was, even though it was the also the highlight concert of the convention, have got to be able to be used to grow audiences. The 'hobby' and merely competent players have little hope in achieving this, the future rests on TPO's best, where Lew resides.   If it was a "bad day" as Dan has explained, then that would be fine. However, this doesn't seem to be the case in Lew's situation.     Ian McLean  
(back) Subject: Durufle Toccata From: "Thomas Haubrich" <haubt000@goofy.zdv.Uni-Mainz.de> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:28:28 +0200   Hi Pat and Chatters!   Durufle never was happy with his Toccata from the Suite, he indeed hated this piece, allthough we all think, that it is one of the most impressive Toccatas ever written, and later on in his career he composed two more versions of the final two pages.   So it's "allowed", like you mentioned, to play different versions of the Coda. At least, I for myself think, the first version (the shorter) is the best.   Regards   Thomas Haubrich (Mainz/GE)          
(back) Subject: Hymns From: "Peggy C. Bie" <peggyb@gate.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:43:26 -0400   Forwarded from a posting to the Anglican email list. > >Hymns, the way we'd sing them if we were honest: > > Sit Up, Sit Up for Jesus > A Comfy Mattress Is Our God > Self-esteem to the World! The Lord Is Come > Oh, for a Couple of Tongues to Sing > Amazing Grace, How Interesting the Sound > Go Tell It on the Speed Bump > Special, Special, Special > Lord, Keep Us Loosely Connected to Your Word > Praise God from whom All Affirmations Flow > My Hope Is Built on Nothing Much > O, God, Our Enabler in Ages Past > I Lay My Inappropriate Behaviors on Jesus > Pillow of Ages, Fluffed for Me > All Hail the Influence of Jesus' Name! > When Peace, Like a Trickle > I'm Fairly Certain that My Redeemer Lives > We Give Thee but Still Think We Own > What an Acquaintence We Have in Jesus > My Faith Looks Around for Thee > Joyful, Joyful We Think Thee Pretty Good > Blessed Hunch > Above Average Is Thy Faithfulness > We Are Milling Around in the Light of God > Spirit of the Living God, Fall Somwhere Near Me > Blest Be the Tie that Doesn't Cramp My Style -- Rev. Peggy C. Bie "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." -Anais Nin http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1095  
(back) Subject: R. Duerr, Organ Recital, Cadet Chapel, West Point, NY - 10 May From: patmai@juno.com (Patricia R. Maimone) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:12:51 -0400   Class of 1936 Distinguished Organists Recital Series ROBERT DUERR   The Cadet Chapel United States Military Academy West Point, New York (50 miles north of Manhattan)   May 10, 1998 3:30 P.M.   Prelude and Fugue in G Major, BWV 541 J. S. Bach   Pastorale, Op. 19 Cesar Franck   Trio Sonata No. 1 in E Flat, BWV 525 J. S. Bach Allegro moderato - Adagio - Allegro   Now Thank We All Our God (Cantata 79) Bach, arr. Virgil Fox Hymn: Now Thank We All Our God ------------------------------------- Apparition of the Church Eternal Olivier Messiaen   Two Gospel Preludes William Bolcom Jesus Loves Me Shall We Gather at the River (Fantasia)   Symphony No. 1, Op. 14 Louis Vierne Final (Allegro)   Admission is free. For directions, further info, please [R]eply to patmai@juno.com   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]