PipeChat Digest #477 - Thursday, August 6, 1998
 
RE: Is a good electronic better than a poor pipe organ?
  by "Cheryl C Hart" <info@copemanhart.co.uk>
Re: Good EO vs Poor PO
  by "Vernon Moeller" <vernonm@ccsi.com>
Re: Playing at Home
  by "Vernon Moeller" <vernonm@ccsi.com>
playing for one's own church
  by <JEKroep@hrn.bradley.edu>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by <VOet@aol.com>
Re: Good EO vs Poor PO
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Playing at Home
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Good EO vs Poor PO
  by "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu>
D*** these fields!
  by "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "Stephen Karr" <sfpkarr@hotmail.com>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by <JEKroep@hrn.bradley.edu>
Re: where is everyone?
  by "Kevin Cartwright" <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: Good EO vs Poor PO
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: D*** these fields!
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "Karen R. Clifton" <karencl@worldnet.att.net>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by <GSandlawn@aol.com>
Re: Is a good electronic is better than a poor pipe organ?
  by "Robert Horton" <r-horton@nwu.edu>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by <sohmer@juno.com>
RE: Good EO vs Poor PO
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "John F. Crowley" <jfjc@juno.com>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "John F. Crowley" <jfjc@juno.com>
Re: playing for one's own church
  by "John F. Crowley" <jfjc@juno.com>
 


(back) Subject: RE: Is a good electronic better than a poor pipe organ? From: Cheryl C Hart <info@copemanhart.co.uk> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:36:44 +0100   As my colleagues and I pick ourselves up after falling off our chairs laughing at Bruce's inimitable response (he brings us such wonderful merriment), let me say that we agree with Dennis - there is no war. As far as we are concerned, pipes rule, OK? (Unless there is lack of money, lack of space, and the pipe organ on offer is poor quality!)   That's my last word for a while. (Probably) We are about to have three days of summer - we haven't really had any since February - and I want to enjoy it, which means today must be all work and no play.   Cheryl   COPEMAN HART & COMPANY LTD Church Organ Builders Finedon Road IRTHLINGBOROUGH Northamptonshire ENGLAND NN9 5TZ   Tel 01933 652600 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ US CONSULTANCY: Copeman Hart - America Email Cpmnhartus@aol.com Tel 423 482 8600 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AUSTRALIAN CONSULTANCY: Copeman Hart - Australia Email hamilton.stives@bigpond.com Tel 02 9983 9775 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.copemanhart.co.uk    
(back) Subject: Re: Good EO vs Poor PO From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:09:45 -0500   Bruce, you've just been deprived all your life. Next time you're in my neighborhood, I'll let you play our Allen as long as you want - it'll change your attitude. It changed my teacher's: "Well, Vernon, I *really* can't stand electronics, but I could get used to this one, yes, I really could..." as she played rapidly repeating notes, arpeggios, etc, all to her increasing delight.   Oh, and one other thing, Bruce - apparently, you've forgotten Vern's Theory of Organ Listeners: He who has the money usually has a tin ear and can only rarely distinguish the sound of an EO (or DO) from that of a PO. Damn shame, ain't it?   Visitors to our church, at least those who wander over to the console to watch the lights going on and off and the stops popping in and out, usually say, "Where are all the pipes? You don't have any pipes! But I can hear them - where'd you put them?" and I just smile and tell them why, and they're amazed.   Hey, it has its shortcomings, sure. All the EO/DO's do. But considering the versatility, especially if there is an internal MIDI and sequencer, it's hard to beat.   \/\/\      
(back) Subject: Re: Playing at Home From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 11:14:34 -0500   What Stan Littleton said about playing for churches you belong to really rang a bell with me.   I've done it twice, and regretted it both times. Granted, my very first experience playing for church was done when I was in high school and I played for my own church, but later on, on 2 separate occasions, I joined the church I was playing for and lived to regret it. If you think the pastors won't hit you up to do something for the good of the church, instead of for the good of your pocketbook, think again.   I think the pastors have the right idea. None of the United Methodist ministers I know belong to the church that they work for. Smart people, if you ask me.   Been there - done that (twice!) - never, never again.   \/\/\        
(back) Subject: playing for one's own church From: JEKroep@hrn.bradley.edu Date: 5 Aug 1998 12:01:44 CST/CDT   , asking them If Iwas jeopordyzing my chance for a scholarship for college. The answerwas the same: no, you would not be putting yourself at risk for losingscholarship. I found out after that meeting that the contact was ateacher at a g So, my advice, coming from a nineteen year old, is: Don't ever Play foryour own church. You'll regret it.   Jonathan Kroepel Southern Illinois University, student      
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: <VOet@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:07:09 EDT   Jonathan,   I am sorry you had this unfortunate experience playing for your church. It is bad enough when people are uninformed, but when they take unfair advantage of someone, it is really low. Unfortuantely, the church is all too often guilty of such things.   Bill Voetberg  
(back) Subject: Re: Good EO vs Poor PO From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:56:50 -0400 (EDT)   >Bruce, you've just been deprived all your life. Actually, I was only deprived for about half of my life (assuming there's more). I learned on a Wicks and we had a Baldwin 5 in the chapel. My first church job had a Baldwin 5A. I played dreadful, horribly abused pipe organs, miscellaneous electronics, and mediocre pipe organs for most of my career. I have studied on only three really good pipe organs (2/34 Flentrop, 3-72 =C6olian-Skinner, 3/34 Reuter). I have had ONE really fine instrument in a parish (2/10 Jardine), and now I'm still playing on a poorly built, mediocre pipe organ (which is being improved, because where there are pipes there's hope!). It was not until I joined the Organ Historical Society that I heard many really fine small organs and saw first hand just how easily and quickly a tracker could be rehabilitated after years of neglect. So actually, I am no longer deprived. I've done my time listening to substitutes and really don't care what the technology or improvements yield. They can sound as "wonderful" as they can: a substitute is a substitute. I only want to play the real thing.   > apparently, you've forgotten Vern's Theory of > Organ Listeners: He who has the money > usually has a tin ear and can only rarely > distinguish the sound of an EO (or DO) from > that of a PO. Damn shame, ain't it? Nope! Haven't forgotten the "golden rule": them what's got the gold, makes the rules. This is a lesson of which I'm reminded each time I have to listen to a substitute sound machine. Doesn't make it any easier to listen to or to tolerate. Nor does it excuse those people for buying them!   >Visitors to our church, at least those who > wander over to the console to watch the lights > going on and off and the stops popping in and > out, usually say, "Where are all the pipes? > You don't have any pipes! But I can hear > them - where'd you put them?" and I just > smile and tell them why, and they're amazed. How sad that it is so much fun to fool people... especially in church!   >Hey, it has its shortcomings, sure. All the > EO/DO's do. But considering the versatility, > especially if there is an internal MIDI and > sequencer, it's hard to beat. And in my book, hard to listen to as well!   No need to flame and accuse me of having a closed mind. I already know that. I installed the locks!!   :~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~: o o o _____bruce cornely_____ o o o o o o cremona84000@webtv.net o o o o o o ___ O a H g S o ___ o o o   Fierce in the woods, gentle in the house. -- Martial    
(back) Subject: Re: Playing at Home From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:03:42 -0400 (EDT)   >I think the pastors have the right idea. None of > the United Methodist ministers I know belong > to the church that they work for. Smart > people, if you ask me. Although they have you think they're smart (hehe), Methodist clergy nor Episcopalian clergy are not allowed to be "members" the parish they serve, although their families may be. Methodist clergy are members of the Conference and Episcopalian clergy are members of the Diocese and the Bishop if their pastor. Actually, the 7th Day Adventists have perfected the system. Clergy are members of the church at large but not the parish, they are moved at specific regular intervals (three or four years as I recall), and their salaries do not come from the parish level, so they are not dependent upon the size of the parish for their income. Really great clergy can serve in small parishes; salary is graduated by seniority only. Great system!   :~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~: o o o _____bruce cornely_____ o o o o o o cremona84000@webtv.net o o o o o o ___ O a H g S o ___ o o o   Fierce in the woods, gentle in the house. -- Martial    
(back) Subject: Re: Good EO vs Poor PO From: "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:02:43 -0400   Oh for God's or Buddha's or Christ's or WHATEVER's sake...   Give it a rest people! Can we say   O-P-I-N-I-O-N??????   There's a -reason- I got off the "other" list and THIS was one of them!   Rebekah  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:05:14 -0400   > So, my advice, coming from a nineteen year old, is: Don't ever Play for > your own church. You'll regret it.   What's your major? I just turned 19 last Monday. My mother went to SIU.  
(back) Subject: D*** these fields! From: "rringram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:08:15 -0400   AAAAAAAAAAAARG! I did it again! Sorry AGAIN!  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: "Stephen Karr" <sfpkarr@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:51:08 EDT   Hi, list-   I'd like to second Jonathan's advice as to playing in a home church. I'm but another youngster, but I've been burned, and I won't let that happen again. It might be good if a more experienced individual has something to say on this matter, perchance someone who feels that it *is* a good thing to play for the home church, and we can get a whole gamut of views on this matter.   Here is my tale of woe. I was not quite so badly treated as Jonathan (paid $25 per mass), but I was the organist for the 7:30 AM "golfers'" mass. I was under a constant barrage of complaints from a battery of elderly folk (most of whom wore hearing aids, and had I been bolder, I would have used that as an argument to my advantage) that I played too loud. I endured this every Sunday for two and a half years, partly because I love that organ (Hinners, 1904, rebuilt by Bozeman in '85, specs privately if you want them), and partly because I had no other source of income. None of that really bugged me, because I know that that is a constant pain that we must endure because of the nature of we beasts. My real problem with the position is how it was terminated.   My family and I, along with some European guests, took a nice, relaxing vacation in the Isle of Palms for a week in June. The Friday night we returned home, I of course checked the e-mail (I was a member of both of the lists even back then, and I was afraid of clogged mailboxes), and to my surprise, there was a note from the pastor there. After tending to the banalities of deletions of messages I didn't care to read, and looking at those that interested me, I got back to the message from the good Father. Imagine my surprise when I saw that effective immediately, the 7:30 mass would no longer entail music, and therefore my services were no longer required on a regular basis at St. Mary's. Fortunately for me, I was already in the process of applying for a second position (Bethlehem Lutheran in Aiken, where I have just regretfully resigned as Music Director and Organist in order to go to school and further my education in matters organical), and that was a safety net to catch me after the initial shock of such rough dealings at the hands of the parish of which I have been a member for nearly ten years. In fact, after a while, I was actually relieved that I no longer had to arise with the sun on Sundays. I am still somewhat miffed at St. Mary's, and just recently, I have heard that there were ulterior motives in my hasty replacement with the specter organist who draws no stops and uses no wind. I have no idea what they are, but I no longer care. I now chalk it up to a large part of my very limited experience.   Yours from an unseasonably cool (read high 80s, low 90s, Fahrenheit, of course) Columbia, SC,   -Stephen F. P. Karr   ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: JEKroep@hrn.bradley.edu Date: 5 Aug 1998 18:11:00 CST/CDT   PI>> So, my advice, coming from a nineteen year old, is: Don't ever Play for PI>> your own church. You'll regret it.   PI>What's your major? I just turned 19 last Monday. My mother went to SIU.     Who is this? any schools do not have suchgreat personality faculty as ms. Webb. She is pictured inside the frontcover of The American Organist.   Jonathan E. Kroepel    
(back) Subject: Re: where is everyone? From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 19:18:58 -0500   Mac Hayes wrote: > > ROBIN88866@aol.com wrote: > > > > Is the list down or is it ... > > No, everybody is over at PIPORG-L at the moment, talking about how to > make pipe organs sound like Hammonds; or at EORG-L badmouthing the > PIPORG-L folk for hating non-pipe organs.   Or like me, 1500 unread messages behind, still no time to do very much...     Kevin C. kevin1@alaweb.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Good EO vs Poor PO From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:09:06 -0400 (EDT)   Oh. For PETE"S sake , rebeckah! We're having fun. Join in or flush... ;-)   :~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~: o o o _____bruce cornely_____ o o o o o o cremona84000@webtv.net o o o o o o ___ O a H g S o ___ o o o   Fierce in the woods, gentle in the house. -- Martial    
(back) Subject: Re: D*** these fields! From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:11:29 -0400 (EDT)   No one cares, Rebekah. All an apology does is add ONE MORE post. Don't fret about it. No one's perfect.   :~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~: o o o _____bruce cornely_____ o o o o o o cremona84000@webtv.net o o o o o o ___ O a H g S o ___ o o o   Fierce in the woods, gentle in the house. -- Martial    
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:59:25 -0400 (EDT)     >It might be good if a more experienced > individual has something to say on this > matter.... When I was just starting out, I substituted in my home church (I was actually too young to work). As I grew older, I began substituting in other churches and gaining confidence. When in my teens our organist was fired in a nasty battle with a man on the Official Board (UMC!). I was asked to substitute in the interim. I did; it was wonderful and fun, then the new organist was hired. She was fired about nine months later, and again I was asked to substitute. New organist hired, a year later fired. I applied for the position and was told no... too young. Two organists later and two more requests for the position and two more denials. Finally I got a job in another church. Organist fired again, and they offered me the job. I said no! I have, on the advice of many organists, adhered to the rule of not being a member of the church I worked in; twice the rule was broken, twice regretted.   >I was under a constant barrage of complaints > from a battery of elderly folk (most of whom > wore hearing aids, and had I been bolder, I > would have used that as an argument to my > advantage) that I played too loud. Just curious.... have you learned to play softly yet? I advise doing it; I waited until I was in my late thirties before I learned to play softer/softly. I could have saved myself alot of grief. Loud and high-pitched sounds PHYSICALLY hurt the ears of elderly people. It is not fair or kind to subject them to that. Catholics seem to be more susceptible, for some reason. I very seldom get loudness complaints now, even though I occasionally let fly, but if the majority of the music (especially hymns) is more gentle they will tolerate the indiscretions.   :~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~:~+~: o o o _____bruce cornely_____ o o o o o o cremona84000@webtv.net o o o o o o ___ O a H g S o ___ o o o   Fierce in the woods, gentle in the house. -- Martial    
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: "Karen R. Clifton" <karencl@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:16:38 -0700   Two cents worth here from one for whom playing for one's own church has never been a problem. I was not a member of this church when I was hired as organist. I never planned to move my membership from my lifelong church. But after about 5 or 6 years, I realized that only my money was going to the home church. I could never attend services or participate. My parents still belonged and went there, but I never could. So I moved my membership to the church of my employment, and I have never regretted it. I have never felt that I have been taken advantage of because of being also a member as well as an employee. There have been times that I have been asked to go beyond the normal call of duty, but I have never felt that my being a member had anything to do with it. No doubt, I would still have been asked to do whatever it was if I was not a member. There is great satisfaction in giving of yourself, whatever talents you have, whatever time you have, whatever resources you have - to the church to which you belong. It is my own personal opinion that a church that will take advantage of an organist will do so whether the organist if a member of the church or not. From all the recent posts, I can conclude that I have been truly blessed. My word to you young organists is - IT AIN'T NECESSARILY SO!!! It isn't NECESSARILY a bad thing to serve the church you belong to. After 32 years, I can say that it has been one of the richest blessings of my life. I hope to make it 50 years, at which time I will be 78 years old - time to retire!!! Karen  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: <GSandlawn@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:21:48 EDT   Here's my 2 Cents worth. I am a member of the church I play for. They hired me after I had joined the church. I had substituted a few Sundays and they decided that having two organists on staff would be a good idea. They have been most generous (even handing me a check for $400 for extras at the OHS Convention this year). This is first time I have played for a church to which I belonged, and it has been by far the most rewarding one.   Sand  
(back) Subject: Re: Is a good electronic is better than a poor pipe organ? From: Robert Horton <r-horton@nwu.edu> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:30:00 -0500   >From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> >Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:35:33 -0700   >>>.....a good electronic is better than a poor pipe organ. >>NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! >Do you seriously mean you would prefer a three rank two manual pipe organ >(say 8 Gedeckt, 4 Prestant, 2 2/3 Nazard, with a 12 pipe ext on the Gedeckt >for the ped) over a nicely laid out electronic?   Nope, but I'd take one well-voiced Principal 8' over the digital and the II/3rk put together.     Robert Carl Horton, Organist 1726 1/2 Sherman Ave. Evanston, IL 60201 tel.847.424.1733 http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/1028/index.html   Q. How many organists does it take to change a light bulb? A. Four...one to change the bulb and three to complain that the switch isn't fast enough.  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: sohmer@juno.com Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:17:14 -0400   I began my career playing for my own church, and kept it up for nearly twenty years. When I joined the Episcopal church, I was already org/chm there. Never once had any problems.   Sometimes, I think, we organists do tend to get asked to "play for our dinner" frequently. One of my former teachers and his wife (who is a marvelous soprano) got really fed up (bad pun) with their congregation always asking her to sing. She finally put an end to it at a packed fellowship hall. She had her husband accompany her, and sang Ned Rorem's "I Am Rose" - the piece lasts all of thirty seconds. She then sat down and had her meal.... never got asked again, but did get a lot of laughs out of the episode.   There are times, though, when organists who are members of their congregations need to remember that all the congregation volunteers to do things, and the organist should, too! Sometimes a little volunteer work in an area different from music can be rewarding... as well as maybe helping to snag another chorister.... or a donor for that wonderful new 4 manual semi-tracker, 86 rank pipe organ that you want put in.... now, we're back on legal grounds.     Steve Ohmer   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: RE: Good EO vs Poor PO From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:03:40 -0700   I will probably get flamed royal for this, but here goes . . .   I visited the Rodgers dealer today. As I've mentioned, my church is a pentecostal one, and they're stuck on Hammonds. I really never mastered one, and frankly don't want to. So, I wanted to see the Rodgers W5000 -- supposed to have B3 sound, Rodgers sounds, and synthesizer. Well, I got the demo CD, and I'm listening to it for the second time. I like it. The beauty of it is, there's enough B3 for the pentecostals, enough organ for me, and enough synthesizer for CCM type music. I think I'll show it to the organist at church.   Even if you don't like electronics, you ought to look at this thing. It could be a fun thing to play. I'm going to go back when I have the time to spend and actually play the thing.   Dennis   Note: I am not advocating this instrument as a replacement for any pipe organ. Please don't send bombs to my house.    
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: jfjc@juno.com (John F. Crowley) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:38:18 -0500   When I started playing in church it was for the parish in which I live. No problems with the pastor (since transfered) new guy brought his own organist. I'm beginning to wonder if this might just be somewhat of a "personality" clash?   Just wishful thinking :)   John   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: jfjc@juno.com (John F. Crowley) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:58:29 -0500   Dear karen:   God bless you for your reply. I wholeheartedly agree. I have been organist at Sts. mary & Joseph RC church for over eight years and I love it. My feelings are this: (and beliefs)   Everything good comes from God, and if He has blessed a person with a talent, then I feel it is wrong if that individual dosen't use it. The thing that makes me extremely happy with myself is that fact that I can give back a little of what he has given me.   As far as playing softly, that is one of the things I've learned to do too. Took awhile. Our congregation at Sts. Mary & Joseph is mainly senior citizens. A GREAT group of folks. And from time to time, they voice their feelings. No hurt feelings on my part.   Congratulations upon providing music for your church's services for so long. I'm sure there are alot of wonderful people who appreciate your efforts and talents.   Musically, John F. Crowley   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]  
(back) Subject: Re: playing for one's own church From: jfjc@juno.com (John F. Crowley) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:51:04 -0500   Dear Stephen:   Chalk it up to experience learned. No matter what church you play in or where its located, there are going to be complaints. I have been organist at an historic RC church in the City of St. Louis for over eight years now and the latest complaint from a "few" of the the parishioners (meaning one!) was that the organ was too loud. WHAT!? Flutes a string and diapson too LOUD! Ok-forget the dynamic markings on the music. For the most part the complaints have been few and far between.   Good example department:   1)-On one hand you have parishioners who will ask when are you going to play something new? 2)-Introduce something new in the way of a hymn. 3)-After introduction (and awhile) here come the folks who will ask you why you don't play something we know! :(   People will complain and its usually those who don't know the slightest thing about music in general much less playing in church. After my first Sunday Mass at 10:30, a couple of parishoners came back to the choir room and introduced themselves. The nice lady remarked that I must be a piano player.I inquired as to why she would say something like that. She replied because you didn't use all those pedals down on the floor. Our other organist did. After much assurance to her that I did indeed use the pedals I asked a favor of her. I asked if she would handle the prayers in church for me and let me handle the music. The following Sunday she and the whole church got bass! But good! I played one of the best arrangements of "Now Thank We All Our God" and after the congregational singing was over, I went back and played it again and ended with one of the best "pull out all the stops" endings you ever heard. Sounds like five ranks just became 15.   Unless the complains come from the pastor, I'll give the person the courtesy of listening. If things get too out of hand, my ever so polite reply is as follows (and it works)   use what talents you posses, for the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except the best.   Best wishes and good luck with your studies.   Musically, John F. Crowley   _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]