PipeChat Digest #631 - Thursday, December 17, 1998
 
Unda Maris:  Flat or Sharp?
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
re Tuning of smooth celestes
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re: Unda Maris:  Flat or Sharp?
  by <Musmachns@aol.com>
Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes
  by <flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw>
Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes
  by "Jim Swist" <jswist@quickturn.com>
Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes
  by "Jim Swist" <jswist@quickturn.com>
re "smooth"
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re: Carols during Advent? - reply
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
the name "Unda Maris"
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Celestes ---
  by <flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw>
Re: the name "Unda Maris"
  by "Robert  Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net>
Looking for Rodgers 33E -- xpost
  by "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net>
Re: the name "Unda Maris"
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Celestes ---
  by "bruce cornely" <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: the name "Unda Maris"
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: Looking for Rodgers 33E -- xpost
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
 


(back) Subject: Unda Maris: Flat or Sharp? From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:05:03 EST   When tuning Unda Maris pipes (made up from Dulcianas most likely) do most prefer flat tuned or sharp tuned?   We have an Unda Maris (Dulciana and Celeste) in the Choir and a Flauto Dolce and Flauto Dolce Celeste in the Swell. The Unda Maris is currently tuned flat and sounds very beautiful against the Swell celeste, especially at 16, 8 and 4 with the boxes shut!!! MMMMMMMmmmmmm =o). The Choir and Swell chambers are spread out in the gallery by about 50-60 feet and the "spread" of sound is really very beautiful in the room and is something that needs to be experienced in person.   Just curious about how other organists and organ technicians feel about the tuning of such ranks.   Scott F. Foppiano, Director of Music and Liturgical Coordination National Shrine of the Little Flower, Royal Oak, MI  
(back) Subject: re Tuning of smooth celestes From: KurtvonS@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:51:17 EST   I have usually, but not always tuned "smooth" celestes (Unda Maris, Flutes, Erzahlers,etc...) flat. I find the room, and the other celeste ranks in an instrument are factors in this. One instrument I was involved with had a Choeur des Violes of five ranks at 8', and was tuned flat, barely flat,very slightly sharp, slightly sharp, and sharp, with the outside parameters being about the normal range. It WAS lovely... Really, it's what you like...I knew one WurliTzer owner who tuned the Viol Celeste dead in, and wouldn't have it any other way!  
(back) Subject: Re: Unda Maris: Flat or Sharp? From: Musmachns@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:43:18 EST   Hello Scott, exciting to hear all the great news from the Shrine of the Little Flower. I've always understood that ALL celestes were sharp, and the unda maris wasd always flat. They make great contrasting and beautiful sounds that way.   Andy Struble Music House Museum, Traverse City, Michigan www.MusicHouse.org  
(back) Subject: Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes From: flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:16:19 +0800 (CST)       Greetings to all...       I never fail to find something of interest from each day's PipeChat postings...       Would you be good enough to explain what a "smooth" celeste is? I have never seen this term used before, either in a book about organs or on an electronic list about church music or organ music.       Many thanks in advance.         Morton Belcher Fellow PipeChat list member...         On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 KurtvonS@aol.com wrote:   > I have usually, but not always tuned "smooth" celestes (Unda Maris, Flutes, > Erzahlers,etc...) flat.  
(back) Subject: Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes From: Jim Swist <jswist@quickturn.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:26:02 -0500   flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw wrote: > > Greetings to all... > > I never fail to find something of interest from each day's PipeChat > postings... > > Would you be good enough to explain what a "smooth" celeste is?   I don't think it's a common term, but it was clear from the context that the poster was referring to celestes made of ranks with less harmonic structure (flutes, dulcianas, erzahlers) as "smooth" celestes. The implication being that the other category is string celestes ("unsmooth celestes"?).   It is fairly general practice, as was stated, to tune "smooth" celestes flat and string celestes sharp, but the post that started the thread was inquiring into the circumstances under which this "rule" is not followed.  
(back) Subject: Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes From: Jim Swist <jswist@quickturn.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:32:44 -0500   KurtvonS@aol.com wrote: > Really, it's what you like...I knew one WurliTzer owner who tuned the Viol > Celeste dead in, and wouldn't have it any other way!   I believe this is what I would call a second order celeste, or chorus effect. If you tune two identical ranks dead on, you will still get an effect (other than increased volume) from the fact the the pitches are out of phase with one another, and you may also get this feeling of motion caused by an extremely low frequency beat between the two pitches which cannot be made perfectly in tune.  
(back) Subject: re "smooth" From: KurtvonS@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:39:30 EST   Thanks Jim, Harmonic content and breadth of tone IS what I meant by "smooth". Usually the "wirier" or more harmonically developed sounds like Viols d'Orchestra or some Gambas are too prominent if tuned flat, and ruin the great warm sound you are striving for. Also, the more harmonically deveolped the sound, the narrower the celeste needs to be tuned before it starts sounding obviously out of tune.   Kurt  
(back) Subject: Re: re Tuning of smooth celestes From: KurtvonS@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:41:44 EST   Missed your second post.....yes, I agree...and that is why certain ranks are sometimes doubled in the treble, or indeed for the entire compass. This individual, however, just hated having anything out of tune. We would sometimes visit a friend's organ after he tuned it, just to retune the Celeste sharp!  
(back) Subject: Re: Carols during Advent? - reply From: RMaryman@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:30:44 EST   In a message dated 98-12-14 16:57:14 EST, you write:   << Has advent season observance disappeared, and I didn't know it? Robert Clooney (Milford, PA) >> Be glad that you don't have to ask "Has traditional Hymnody disappeared, and I didn't know it..."   (that ought to get the flamethrowers goin'!)   Seriously...   It seems like our contemporary generations among the (still) churched protestant denominations relate to Christmas Carols more so than the advent celebrations of older generations...it also has to do (I suspect) with the ministers of today wanting to maximize on the Christmas season (when attendance is UP for the year). It is common observation among all the major denominations that Christmas Eve (and easeter) are the BIG services and are one tool for growth projections among the churches that are actually experiencing growth. Some church leaders even go so far as to deliberately NOT sing hymns like Veni, Emmanuel and Picardy because they are in a minor key (!) and to them minor key songs are a no-no. Go Figure.   just my 2 cents worth.   Rick M  
(back) Subject: the name "Unda Maris" From: ScottFop@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:35:31 EST   As I understand it, the name Unda Maris automatically implies that the tuning is flat.       The ablove was received as a response from my inquiry about flat vs. sharp Dulciana celestes. I had been under the impression that "Unda Maris" translated to English as wave of the sea."   SFF  
(back) Subject: Celestes --- From: flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:58:44 +0800 (CST)   Thanks for the explanation... I first assumed that the non-smooth celestes were of the Viole type... But yet I also know that it is best not to assume too much, especially when terms are mentioned on the list that I'm not familiar with...   Thanks for the explanation...         I now have another question: I would like to have a "smooth celeste" on an organ that I play.... but I don't want one as soft as a Dulciana, and I definitely don't want a Flute Celeste.   What kind of celeste would sound like a silvery Dulciana, but at the same time would be louder in volume? Any ideas? I once heard a nice celeste on an Aeolian Skinner (1956) --- I'm not sure but I think it was the VIola Pomposa 8 rank plus the Celeste rank.... It sounded wonderful...   At any rate, I shall look forward to receiving your suggestions soon...   Best wishes to all...       Morton Belcher   On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Jim Swist wrote:   > > I don't think it's a common term, but it was clear from the context > that the poster was referring to celestes made of ranks with less > harmonic structure (flutes, dulcianas, erzahlers) as "smooth" > celestes. The implication being that the other category is > string celestes ("unsmooth celestes"?). >  
(back) Subject: Re: the name "Unda Maris" From: "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:03:47 -0600   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=_NextPart_000_01BE293F.F4576800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   SFF wrote: > > The ablove was received as a response from my inquiry about flat vs. sharp > Dulciana celestes. I had been under the impression that "Unda Maris" > translated to English as wave of the sea." >   I normally don't say much, but the organ at my last church had both a Gamba celeste (tuned sharp) and unda maris (tuned flat). I had the unda maris (dulciana celeste in this case) reversed to sharp as it made a smoother transition from one to another. There was no change in the basic effect, just a matter of preference.   Robert Eversman Mineral Point Wi   ------=_NextPart_000_01BE293F.F4576800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 = color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"> SFF wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The ablove = was received as a response from my inquiry about flat vs. sharp<br>&gt; = Dulciana celestes. &nbsp;I had been under the impression that &quot;Unda = Maris&quot;<br>&gt; translated to English as wave of the = sea.&quot;<br>&gt; <br><br>I normally don't say much, but the organ at = my last church had both a Gamba celeste (tuned sharp) and unda maris = (tuned flat). I had the unda maris (dulciana celeste in this case) = reversed to sharp as it made a smoother transition from one to another. = There was no change in the basic effect, just a matter of preference. = <br><br>Robert Eversman <br>Mineral Point Wi<br><br></p> </font></body></html> ------=_NextPart_000_01BE293F.F4576800--    
(back) Subject: Looking for Rodgers 33E -- xpost From: "Dennis Goward" <dgoward@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:43:21 -0700   I may be in the market for a Rodgers 33E Theatre Organ. If you have any information on one that may be available, please let me know.   I realize this may be a flamable offense, asking for an electronic theatre organ and cross posting to boot, but have mercy.   Dennis Goward Business: http://www.desertsoft.net Personal: http://www.desertsoft.net/personal    
(back) Subject: Re: the name "Unda Maris" From: DudelK@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:28:54 EST   In a message dated 98-12-16 22:49:01 EST, you write:   > I had been under the impression that "Unda Maris" >translated to English as wave of the sea." > >   Actually I think it's a corruption of a Yiddish expression as spoken in certain Scandinavian areas of Minnesota: "Uff da, Morris!"  
(back) Subject: Re: Celestes --- From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:06:40 -0500 (EST)     >I would like to have a "smooth celeste" on an > organ that I play.... but I don't want one as > soft as a Dulciana, and I definitely don't want > a Flute Celeste. >What kind of celeste would sound like a silvery > Dulciana, but at the same time would be > louder in volume? =A0 Any ideas? I once heard a > nice celeste on an Aeolian Skinner (1956) --- > I'm not sure but I think it was the VIola > Pomposa 8 rank plus the Celeste rank.... It > sounded wonderful... One of the most popular non-string celestes has been the Gemshorn Celeste, which usually is about midway between a flute and a string. In addition, the non-celeste rank would be very useful as well. My preference would be an Italian style Unda Maris, which is a celesting rank to a principal stop. Principals are such a warm sound, and adding a celesting rank really creates a wonderful effect. If you like the sound of a Dulciana, simply have a louder Dulciana made. An earlier post indicated that English Dulcianas are louder than our US examples. Your like for the Viola Pomposa and its celeste also indicates that a more principal like tone is what you're looking for. Many of the Skinner Viola Pomposa stops approached small principal sound. What is the size of your instrument now?   ........................bruce cornely........................ o o o o ______________ o o o o d o g s ______________ o o h o o a o o ______________ o o p s   ............. cremona84000@webtv.net ............     Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in. -- Mark Twain    
(back) Subject: Re: the name "Unda Maris" From: GRSCoLVR@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:03:41 EST   Hi List--- Interesting thread--- Earlier this year while on a visit to Austin Organs in Hartford CT, I enquired of the Factory General Superintendent as to what the name Unda Maris meant, he immediately replied "Waves of the sea"   -Roc  
(back) Subject: Re: Looking for Rodgers 33E -- xpost From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 04:46:16 -0500   Hi, Dennis: No flames from this quarter; I am the entirely satisfied own= er of a Rodgers organ. You could do a lot worse. I can't guess if the shipping charges to get such an organ to you in Phoenix from the East Coa= st would be feasible, but just in case it would, I tell you about R. A. Daff= er and Sons, the largest dealer the Rodgers people have. Their headquarters= is in Jessup, MD, between Baltimore and Washington, DC. Their territory extends from Philadelphia all the way to Tidewater Virginia and Northern North Carolina. They have a website, www.dafferorgans.com, which has a p= age listing used organs for sale. Lookin's free! Best of luck, =96Dave   -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Goward <dgoward@uswest.net> To: Organchat@Onelist. Com <organchat@onelist.com>; PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org>; Pipe Organs and Related Topics <PIPORG-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 11:56 PM Subject: Looking for Rodgers 33E -- xpost     >I may be in the market for a Rodgers 33E Theatre Organ. If you have any >information on one that may be available, please let me know. > >I realize this may be a flamable offense, asking for an electronic theat= re >organ and cross posting to boot, but have mercy. > >Dennis Goward >Business: http://www.desertsoft.net >Personal: http://www.desertsoft.net/personal > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >