PipeChat Digest #194 - Saturday, January 10, 1998
 
Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!)
  by Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com>
Mr. Campbell-Show Us the Research
  by Richard Schneider <arpncorn@dave-world.net>
RE: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!)
  by Wildhirt, Richard <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com>
IRC Tonight and Connection Problems
  by David Scribner <david@blackiris.com>
Mr. Moeller's letter
  by Grahame Davis <wineorg@azstarnet.com>
DO Voicing
  by Roger <pamnroy@wolfenet.com>
Duct tape again!!
  by Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com>
Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!)
  by bruce cornely <cremona84000@webtv.net>
Re: Duct tape again!!/So What?
  by MFulk70776 <MFulk70776@aol.com>
Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 414th verse)
  by FireAlarmz <FireAlarmz@aol.com>
Re:  Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!)
  by CharlesHTu <CharlesHTu@aol.com>
successes (was Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!)
  by Giwro <Giwro@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!) From: Vernon Moeller <vernonm@ccsi.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:49:47 -0600   Colleagues:     Y'know, folks, I've been on this list since its founding, and I belonged to the "other" list for a year or two before that, and I've seen all the arguments pro and con for PO's, EO's, DO's and TO's, and y'know what? Nobody has changed my mind! Not one iota!   Every time this topic comes up, I promise myself that I'm not going to say a word, and every time I end up saying something, so just bear with me a moment, OK? I'd like to make a couple of small points here:     1> No organist that I know of is rich enough and powerful enough to single-handedly change the progress of history regarding this issue. In order to do that, you have to change the thinking of the main buyers of organs - schools and churches - and their buyers are seldom organists, but are business-people who might have an interest in the arts. This is sort of like wealthy businessmen who buy luxurious limousines that somebody else - the chaffeur - is going to be driving. If the driver complains too much about the car, he is liable to find himself out of work, because he is, in effect, telling the owner that he made a lousy choice when he bought the current car. OTOH, if he is wise enough to make occasional suggestions to the owner about the desireability of another brand and how it will offer better benefits to the owner, then he may be allowed to continue working for him *but* he has to decide which he wants to do: to work continuously or to stand for a principle and risk eating irregularly.   I think most organists are in the same boat as the chaffeur. Complain a lot, when there is nothing a church can do in a reasonably short period of time without incurring large debts by building or buying new instruments, and many churches will start looking around for organists who are less vocal. Confronted with whining organists, some churches will even abandon the organ altogether to allow their own members to provide music in the "Praise Band" format.   2> What I'd like to see, instead of all this roasting (IOW, mild flaming), is letters where organists say stuff like, "Well, all I've got to work with is a Lowrey X-210, with the auto-rhythm synthesizer, but I worked out my own version of the 3rd Chorale of Franck, and, while Virgil might be frowning on it from wherever he is now, the people loved it and they want to hear more Franck, and there's even talk of upgrading the organ to a Lowrey X-210-A..." IOW, success stories - stories of people who do the best damn job they can with the instruments they have to work with, because in the long run, it's the organist and his/her skills who is going to have to see if that dog can hunt on a weekly basis.   I've been stuck with PO's where I had to play "Pull-the-Pipe" every few Sundays because the church was too poor to pay (what they thought were exorbitant) costs of local organ technicians. I worked for a year on what, at one time, must have been a magnificent instrument, but because the church was planning to rebuild it a couple of years later, they refused to put any maintenance money into it.   And, I played for several years on a Hammond B-3 - to this day, I still get compliments from people who like to remember how I made that ol' organ really sing out on Sundays. Right now, I've been blessed with a wonderful Allen 3 manual with an internal MIDI and sequencer, and while it may take me a while to "program" pistons, playing on it is more fun than having a whole box of Whitman's chocolates all to myself.   I don't think there will ever be a final solution to the PO vs EO, etc. debates. I just think you have to do what you can to make music as well as you can on whatever instrument you may have right now, and plan for the future of your church or school, as well as your personal future, with as much care as you can muster, without burning bridges you may find yourself having to re-cross in the future.   Thanks for letting me get up on my soapbox for a moment!   \/\/\    
(back) Subject: Mr. Campbell-Show Us the Research From: Richard Schneider <arpncorn@dave-world.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:57:08 -0800   On 98-01-08 18:50:22 EST Rick Anderson <rickan19@IDT.NET> wrote: > Douglas Campbell wrote... > Do not blame Mr. Campbell. > We have seen people like him for years with ersatz "research" etc > Just ignore his ilk. > The conversation was interesting before his babbling, was it not?.   Dear Listers,   Comments of this genre are sufficient to pull me out of my current "Lurk" mode. For what it's worth, I had an occasion to review the data that Mr. Campbell generated and believe that it is valid.   >From my vantage-point, the problem is not so much repairability (ANYTHING, if given the right parts, can be repaired!) but the practicality of doing so.   One area no one has commented on so far is the fact that the sound of a pipe organ can be fairly readily modified by a competent voicer, whereas to modify the sound of a non-pipe is considerably more involved; so much so that it generally works out to be much more practical to replace the instrument in question, rather than going through the exercise of trying to re-design or modify circuitry.   Why don't you take a look at the data with an open mind, rather than simply dismissing something you've not seen?   Faithfully, / ^ ^ \ { (O) (O) } --------oOOOo--------U-------oOOOo------------   "Arp in the Corn Patch" Rich Schneider SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Organbuilders SNAILMAIL:41-43 Johnston Street P.O. Box 137 Kenney, Il 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX EMAIL: mailto:arpncorn@dave-world.net    
(back) Subject: RE: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!) From: "Wildhirt, Richard" <Richard.Wildhirt@PSS.Boeing.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:21:45 -0800   In the words of one hymnist, "Here I stand, so help me God."   Amen, Brother Vern! Amen!    
(back) Subject: IRC Tonight and Connection Problems From: David Scribner <david@blackiris.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:42:21 -0600   Just a reminder that tonight there will be our regularly scheduled IRC session starting at 9:00 PM Eastern Time. All of the information to connect is on the PipeChat Web Site http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   Over the last couple of days there has been some connection problems in my area due to a "flakely" router. This has been affecting all connections to the PipeChat Domain including the regular list mail, the Web site and the IRC server. People have been working to correct the problems and hopefully by this eveing it will all be taken care of. If you are planning to join us for the IRC session and have problems connecting using irc.pipechat.org try using instead the IP number ofr the IRC server which is 206.105.52.75   Sorry for any inconvenience that has caused but it has been out of my control. I have been in contact with the people responsible and they have been working to correct the problems.   David Co-Owner / Technical Administrator PipeChat   ********************************** David Scribner Black Iris Consulting 4775 Balmoral Drive Pensacola, FL 32504-9174 850-478-9635 - Voice 850-476-0711 - Fax david@blackiris.com      
(back) Subject: Mr. Moeller's letter From: Grahame Davis <wineorg@azstarnet.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:22:47 -0800   Brothers and Sisters on pipechat,   Happy New Year from Tucson Arizona where we are in the last stages of restoring a stunning Aeolian-Skinner from 1959. Opus 1352 was purchased from the original customer and moved to storage pending fund raising. That was ten years ago! At last this beauty will sing again in about three months. It is such a pleasure to work with skillfully crafted organ equipment and myself and my co-workers are grateful for such wonderful projects like this and others we seem to be getting these days.   I couldn't help but be touched by Mr. Moeller's letter abour DO V PO and in this regard I have this to say about his statements. As a small regional builder with a fairly large tuning round, we see many poorly contrived pipe organs out here on the frontier. We do not have a rich or old heritage of pipe organs here. There are also many electronic organs of just about every make. We have walked away from really bad pipe organs believing that to continue to service them simply prolongs the unsatisfactory situation. No-one wins when bad old organs are bandaided along for years. There are however, certain situations where I am called to examine the deeper issues surrounding these difficult decisions. For instance, there is a lovely lady who is a close friend of mine and who is one of our local AGO organists. She plays a really dreadful old organ made from bicycle inner tubes and ladies' girdles. It is what we call a "chicken farmer" organ. It is in a broom closet......I kid you not! Because this lady is a friend, treats me with great respect and sees that I am paid promptly for my services, we have agreed to keep working on the organ for another two years. She has instituted an education campaign which we are a part of and very slowly, the deeper human issues which always surround these situations are coming to light. We do not try to rebuild or revoice when we go to the church in question. We see that the old organ is always at concert pitch and there are no deadnotes. She does the rest by choosing only suitable music and will frequently move to the piano when the organ cannot adequately support the music in question. This church knows that if they are to keep our interest they will have to work with us to plan out a strategy which will see a new organ in the church; but, it's going to be a long process over several years. It seems that this is an ideal calling for small regional builders like myself. The larger mainline builders cannot work down to this level with a customer and if they did, it would be a costly affair no doubt. Our prices are not cheap and must work into such a proposal, some form of economic protection against materials and labor cost increases etc. The lesson I see in Mr. Moeller's comments is that we must continually work to find new and reasonable ways to use our skills without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Organ builders must do this as much as organists and it is rare these days that churches with around 300-400 in the congregation can afford to spend a large lump sum on either a new electronic organ or a pipe organ. In the southwest, many of our congregations are only now paying off their old mortgages from the 1960s and the days of these churches going into serious debt has disappeared as far as I am concerned. I believe that just as it possible for a musician to choose suitable pieces for the two manual Cavaille-Conn from the 1960s, it is equally possible for organbuilders to map out a good plan to replace an ailing old pipe organ using several stages, if that is the only approach possible. It would be good to hear from some of my colleagues in the profession as to how they feel about organ projects set up in this way. I know it is a fine line to walk but that is usually what reality demands these days.   Regards to all Grahame Davis at Pipe Organ Artisans of Arizona, Inc.    
(back) Subject: DO Voicing From: "Roger" <pamnroy@wolfenet.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:34:06 -0800   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD1D24.C93713A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   The current thread on DO Vs PO reminds me of a question I have wanted to = ask: will anyone please explain the amount of voicing control that is = available in the latest state-of-the-art digital organs. And then maybe = compare that to what you think should be available, IOW are we = approaching the ultimate in the amount of voicing control that is being = provided?   ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD1D24.C93713A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2110.0"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The current thread on DO Vs PO = reminds me of a=20 question I have wanted to ask:&nbsp; will anyone please explain the = amount of=20 voicing control that is available in the latest state-of-the-art digital =   organs.&nbsp; And then maybe compare that to what you think should be = available,=20 IOW are we approaching the ultimate in the amount of voicing control = that is=20 being provided?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD1D24.C93713A0--    
(back) Subject: Duct tape again!! From: Kevin Cartwright <kevin1@alaweb.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 20:51:09 -0600   Greetings: (in a low and foreboading tone)   I have privately mentioned to about two e-mail friends that I just happened to find duct tape on the TRANSFER air duct of my 19 rank, 1167 pipe Wicks. Even being a 15 year-old organist, I get mad when I see DUCT TAPE on my organ. Anything as beautiful as a pipe organ SHOULD NOT BE DISCRACED BY D U C T T A P E . Anyway, the person who thought he or she could permanently stop a TRANSFER leak with it was a "qualified" tuner or technician! I have no proof it was the most recent tech I spoke to, but whoever did that needs to find another job!   So, I think a day before he returns the tape will go missing, and I'll complain about a BIG leak so he might stop it with something REAL. Actually, duct tape just belongs on your air-conditioner.   Very upset,   Kevin ___ | | | | | | | | | | | | |_| | | ___ | | | | | Kevin | | | | | | | | |_| | | |  
(back) Subject: Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!) From: cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:22:22 -0500   Vernon, Thanks for a great, great post. It reminded me of a, well not exactly a success, but a really funny nightmare come true.   We have a Lowry "Parade" in our chapel. The first time I saw it the thought came into my mind, "wouldn't it be awful to get ready for a Mass, turn that thing on and have all the percussions chugging out of control." Well, to make a long story short, I went in to start a FUNERAL last week, turned the thing on and I an about six people already in the chapel were greeted with "boom-thumpa-thumpa-chinkle-chinkle- wham-wham-boop-boop-thump-thump-thump. I got it turned off and as I settled back against the wall taking deep breaths, one of the mourners walked by, patted me on the shoulder and said, "thanks, I needed that!" Geez, talk about "mysterious ways."   bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o ago (dean) ohs o o __________ o o  
(back) Subject: Re: Duct tape again!!/So What? From: MFulk70776 <MFulk70776@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:55:58 EST   In a message dated 98-01-09 23:21:46 EST, you write:   << I happened to find duct tape on the TRANSFER air duct of my 19 rank, 1167 pipe Wicks. Even being a 15 year-old organist, I get mad when I see DUCT TAPE on my organ. Anything as beautiful as a pipe organ SHOULD NOT BE DISCRACED BY D U C T T A P E . whoever did that needs to find another job! So, I think a day before he returns the tape will go missing, and I'll complain about a BIG leak so he might stop it with something REAL. Actually, duct tape just belongs on your air-conditioner. Very upset, Kevin>>   If it is an effective repair, who cares? Why make a value judgement on trivia?  
(back) Subject: Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 414th verse) From: FireAlarmz <FireAlarmz@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:04:06 EST   Bruce Cornely   Bruce- a Lowrey PARADE?! How big is your chapel?! I grew up on a Lincolnwood 25, which is bigger and better! (In a 12X15 living room) Geez, no wonder you love tracker organs, even if they ain't got no rhythm.   Bill Miller  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: DO vs PO (Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!) From: CharlesHTu <CharlesHTu@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:41:08 EST   Dear Colleagues, I think that Vernon Moeller is right on target. We must make the best music we can where we are and the better we do that the more credibility we will have to influence the next purchase. I realize that many of the discussions here are philosophical as well as practical, but I, too, would like to hear some of the success stories. The ideal is what we strive for but most of the time life is a compromise. Rarely do we have the right acoustics coupled with adequate space, coupled with enough money added to the right builder wedded to the right player in the company of an educated and appreciative congregation!   Blessings on all of us as we strive for the best, working from where we find ourselves. We need each other to succeed. Grace and peace, Charles Tucker  
(back) Subject: successes (was Same song, 413th verse, Yawn!) From: Giwro <Giwro@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:56:39 EST   In a message dated 98-01-10 01:14:24 EST, you write:   << I think that Vernon Moeller is right on target. We must make the best music we can where we are and the better we do that the more credibility we will have to influence the next purchase. I realize that many of the discussions here are philosophical as well as practical, but I, too, would like to hear some of the success stories. >>   Yaaay for Vernon! I heartily concur! I never would have learned the fine art of hand registration if I hadn't been forced to by playing an awful Baldwin with 5 blind factory-set pistons for a whole year! When I gradumicated up to a III/36 Casavant with 6 generals and 5 divisional pistons per maunal I was in Hog Heaven - 2 years later playing a large 3 manual Allen, I still never used all of the pistons except once for a rather hairy recital.... and speaking of the Allen - It was more fun to play after a year or so, when my ears had forgotten what real pipes sounded like... whenever I play a Pipe instrument, I miss the real thing (but I never miss climbing up into the Choir chest to re- tune the #*$^&$&^%#*& Krummhorn when the temp fluctuated, nor do i miss playing a giant celeste while wating for the building to warm up....)   Jonathan