PipeChat Digest #198 - Tuesday, January 13, 1998
Rotary bellows and laminar flow
  by CDKrug <CDKrug@AOL.COM>
Re: Duct tape again!!
  by Anderson W. Wacaser <wacaser@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Interesting Oboe Horn?
  by Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net>
Re: sampling
  by John Balboni <JohnB@GCQ.net>
Re: I'm new in pipechat
Imitating the Real Thing: electron. vs. pipe
  by Karl E. Moyer <kmoyer@marauder.millersv.edu>
Re: I'm new in pipechat
  by HDKarras <HDKarras@aol.com>

(back) Subject: Rotary bellows and laminar flow From: CDKrug <CDKrug@AOL.COM> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:37:39 EST   Recently, a poster related a story about A/B listening to an instrument that had both a fan wind supply and a manually operated bellows. The writer claimed to be able to tell the difference between the two winding methods.   Has anyone ever done a good controled experiment in this area, where the listener and the organist are unaware of the wind raising technology being used at the time?   Has any builder experimented with the creation of laminar flow in the wind supply lines? If so, does it make any difference?   The usual technique is to pass the fluid (water, air, scotch whiskey etc) through a duct containing many smaller ducts. Usually, a huge bundle of drinking straws is stuck in the duct/pipe/whatever. This is how they make those fountains that have a smooth stream of water that conducts light and lands without splashing--pretty cool to look at.  
(back) Subject: Re: Duct tape again!! From: "Anderson W. Wacaser" <wacaser@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:08:18 -0800   Prestant16 wrote: > > What about PVC wind lines, that seems VERY good. It is easily cut and it is > not as lond as the flexable wind lines. It is also I THINK cheaper than the > GOOD (not aluminum foil) flexable ductwork. > > -William C. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   Another big advantage is significantly less flow resistance, which equates to more useable wind.   Cheers, Andy  
(back) Subject: Re: Interesting Oboe Horn? From: Bob Loesch <rrloesch@jps.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:02:28 -0800   At 18:39 1/12/98 EST, Douglas A. Campbell wrote: > >On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:59:38 -0500 cremona84000@webtv.net (bruce cornely) >writes: >>The hack who made the Oboe d' plywood may have only a shred of respect >>left in the organ community, but my experience has been that they are >>often the most popular service person in town with the churches (he >>gives them "good" deals! >> bruce cornely o o o __________ o o o >> >And WHAT is the REAL cost of these "good deals" ? ? ? ? >Douglas A. Campbell   I'll be glad to answer that one, because I had the dubious honor of removing this very organ (St. Paulus Lutheran, San Francisco) in 1969, sometime after finding the Oboe d'Toilette. A rather nice hodge-podge of '20's vintage church stuff and 8 ranks of Kilgen theatre organ (but very nice) stuff had been butchered and neglected for so long that the church spent a large amount on a Werner Bosch tracker. A nice organ, rather large, c 45-50 stops. I really don't know how much the Bosch cost them, but it was TONS more than a rebuild of the Austin/Murray Harris/Kilgen that they had. Whatever the cost of the Bosch, THAT was how much the "deals" cost the church...The story has a rather sad ending, because the building, and the Bosch ended up in the cellar smoldering...   Regards,   Bob        
(back) Subject: Re: sampling From: JohnB@GCQ.net (John Balboni) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:34:18 -0500   >In a message dated 98-01-12 09:16:38 EST, you write: > ><< has anyone done any sampling of organ pipes using the Alesis or Peavey > system. Any recommendation? > thanks, >>   A friend who was at the AIO conference in VA last year told me he heard talk going around that "someone in the business" was working to provide sampled T.O. sounds for the Alesis QSR-64. Nothing else is known at this writing. I'm curious, as Alesis has a "Santuary Card" that has samples of classical pipe sounds, chimes, piano, etc. which plugs into the QSR. So, would they possibly be working on a "Theatre Organ Card"? Or is this just another unfounded rumor ... Might motivate me to get a QSR-64 if they are, in-fact, working on T.O. samples. A lot less $$ than the alternatives.   John Balboni    
(back) Subject: Re: I'm new in pipechat From: KEYBOARD J <KEYBOARDJ@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:30:40 EST   Please Help,   I was trying to receive Han-Dieter Karras's Web Page when AOL knocked me off taking his Address With it.   Does anyone have it. I would very much appreciate having it.   Thanks, KEYBOARDJ@aol.com Jerry McKinney in Texas  
(back) Subject: Imitating the Real Thing: electron. vs. pipe From: "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersv.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:48:33 -0500 (EST)     Permit a slightly philosophic attempt at the question of pipe organs versus electronic imitation of pipe organs.   My church is about to purchase a new chalice. One can consider the chalice merely as a vessel functioning to deliver wine to the communicant, for which reason it could make sense to obtain a chalice made of plastic and coated with a veneer of gold-looking or silver-looking material. This chalice could be so made that the ordinary parishioner would not know its material apart from one made of sterling silver.   Apart from the discussion as to the interaction of wine with sterling silver killing germs left there by a communicant--the "jury seems to be still out" on this question--we consider another issue of more substantial nature, i.e., a sort of quality--and perhaps even aesthetic or substantial "honesty" in the material used for this function. We choose to spend far more $$ than some members might consider appropriate so as to obtain a chalice with integrity. This integrity includes a factor that it IS what it SEEMS TO BE.   Similarly, we use candles with real fire, not candles with an electrical imitation of fire. (I do understand that a number of churches, including some large and even famous ones, have gone to "electric candles" on the altar.)   Or this: we cover the casket with a funeral pall when brought into the nave at a funeral. The "function" is to--well, let's try a layman's statement of purpose here--to make each deceased person equal before God and the congregation at that moment. Now, the function could be carried out by using a bed sheet or, since we're in a city in a fairly rural, farming area, a horse blanket. But we don't use any such pall; we use a rather expensive pall, made of fine materials and of artistic quality beyond what many of those dec eased persons likely EVER wore in life! The pall has more than functionality, and it reflects judgments and expectations BEYOND either the average of the people or most especially WELL BEYOND the understanding or appreciation of some of them.   A number of persons have commented more or less to the effect that if the people hearing the organ are satisfied with an electronic instrument in lieu of a pipe organ, that should suffice. One person specifically stated that it matters little how we get to the sound that satisfies the people, so long as the sound is there, meaning, of course, that it makes little difference whether the sound comes from pipes or from speakers.   These are fairly utilitarian and, perhaps in the best sense of the word, "accidental" understandings of the issue, equivalent to a silver-looking plastic chalice. But we should expect that, of all places, one should find integrity of every kind in the Church. (Yes, I know, the Church Militant struggles with her human dimension, including all sorts of unjustice, not the least of them social injustice to her employees; but that does not disprove my point.)   Perhaps the worst illustration possible: a builder who's ready to make $$$ anyway he can, whether with pipes or with electronic substitutes and who sold a church an electronic instrument, speakers of which he hid behind a newly-erected display of pipes!!!!!!!!! It's not even that he hid the speakers behind pipes from a prior pipe organ; he purposely sought to hoodwink the people into thinking they were hearing something they were NOT!!) And the clergy and lay leadership accepted it!! If we can't expect to practice integrity in the Church, where CAN we hope to find it?   I come to several conclusions:   1. Just as some of our members would probably not care whether they received the wine from a plastic chalice that they actually KNEW to be plastic, we have other principles at work that inform our decision to obtain a sterling silver chalice. That fact that some or even perhaps most of the people might neither sense nor care about the difference does not dissuade the parish leadership from the kinds of decisions I have listed above.   2. Much of this discussion deals a current, rampant American sense of populism. It reflects itself in anti-elitism, casting elitism in all sorts of negative light, even sometimes as anti-American. It takes an attitude that "if I like it, that's what's most important." It expresses itself in statements such as "Who are you to tell what I should think or do or live my life?" It becomes the convenient excuse for all sorts of personal actions. (Fill in the list for yourself.) But at its base is both disregard and blatant distrust for persons in authority or of some sort of respected position. That makes the current discussion difficult, especially in an atmosphere where sometimes the most important basis of judgment about music is whether the listener likes it. Forget standards that might guide or restrict our choices; give us what we want!   3. Following on the heels of #2, some of us have preferred to give up standards, whether to remain popular, because we're fatigued, because we cannot articulate the values--or at least not well enough to be convincing to those who claim their own taste as the all-sufficient basis of judgment. Put another way: sometimes we give up our leadership role for conveniences of one sort or another. Obviously, my church's chalice purchase is not guilty of this.   So I find the issue to be one of genuineness versus skilled imitation. No one doubts what's the "real thing" and what's a skilled imitation. (We hear lots of comment on how the electronic organ sounds like a pipe organ; did you ever hear anyone brag that a given pipe organ sounds like an an electronic instrument?)   Falsity, imitation of the real thing, etc., is supposed to get short shrift in the Church in deference to things of real value, genuine expression and existence, etc. Persons who glory in false fronts on buildings, false hair coloring, etc., etc., also have difficulty understanding this distinction, but that doesn't mean that the distinction does not exist or that it is not important. Unlike the old cigarette ad, sometimes it's NOT what's up front that counts; sometimes it's the substance of the issue or the item.   At the very least, if the instrument sounds from speakers, might the people be able to SEE those speakers in manner similar to how they SEE pipes? Hiding them behind pipes lacks the kind of integrity that's in very short supply.   If we understand the organ as fine artistry and a work of integrity, conveying and expressing timeless truths, is it possible to be satisfied with imitation materials or results? The end product does not essentially deal with this question, no matter how satisfying any of my church's members might find a plastic chalice with a silver-like coating. It's precisely those members who need to be guided into a higher perception of truth and honesty, including of honest materials and workmanship.   We organists have the opportunity to stand apart from the quick-fix society that substitutes disposables for things of greater permanence. We have the opportunity to teach that society something about value, higher perception, and more refined beauty, including as these impact on our understanding of and witness to God. Giving 'em what they want does not necessarily accomplish this; in fact, sometimes it works against this.   Which will we seek to do?   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: I'm new in pipechat From: HDKarras <HDKarras@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:15:09 EST   Dear Jerry,   what happend with AOL?. My Adress: HDKarras@aol.com and my Site: http://members.aol.com/hdkarras/index.htm Next April i'm in Texas, to perform Mozart Reqiuem in Dallas. Greetings Hans